Let's Talk About Superman II?

[THE BAT-MAN]

I've just finished watching Richard Donners Cut of Superman II and thought it would be cool to start a thread regarding both versions (Donner/Lester)  I have been a fan of these films since I was a kid and now looking back on them, I was suprised by how many plot holes there were. 

In Lester and Donner's version,  Superman gives up his powers in the fortress of solitude to be with Lois.  The fortress is located at the north pole.  So I wondered, How in the world does a powerless Superman get Lois back to civilization?  Considering that the crystal construct had been destroyed, they are virtually in the middle of nowhere with freezing temperatures and have no means of transportation.

Another interesting scene is Clark's journey back to the fortress.  Powerless and without aid, food, or proper clothing to withstand the freezing temperatures I began to wonder.  How did he survive this perilous journey?

One thing that always gets me is the use of Superman's super hearing sometimes he hears things when he's concentrating and sometimes things just pop in when he's not concentrating.  You think that with all the trouble that Zod was causing, it would interrupt Superman's dinner date with Lois.  Or even the scene when Lex Luthor invaded his fortress and was listening to his mother Lara (Lester's Version) or Jorel (Donner's Cut) give a lecture of the darkest episode in Krypton's history.  You would think their voices would be ringing in Kael's ears causing him to fly to the fortress and see what's going down.

When Superman turns back time in Donner's Cut and everything is fixed and back to normal as if nothing happened.  Clark still has one last showdown with the trucker who beat him at the hot dog diner.  It made no sense, because when he turns back time no one has a memory of what happened.  Yet, everyone reacted like it was round 2 except now Clark wins.

Anyway,  One classic scene that is done on Lester's version is when Superman throws an S insignia at Non.  Exactly, what did that do to him?

There are alot more plot holes that I didn't mention, but despite them, I still enjoyed the films (Lester & Donner's) as the classics that they are.  I still feel that Donner's Cut is really only about 60% of what was intended,  had Donner not been fired I still believe that Superman II would have been a different film.

There's more that I would like to share, but for right now it's your turn to share your thoughts.

[Dark Knight Detective]

Thecolorsblend, we need your verdict!

[thecolorsblend]

You called down the thunder and now you've got it!

I typically call the thing Donner made (at least I can only describe it as a thing) "The Donner Crud".  For every admittedly better idea the RDC, there are four or five accompanying craptastic ideas, poor execution (even by the home video standards to which the Donner Crud aspires) or any number of other things that ruin what might otherwise have been an effective cut of the film.  So much so, in fact, that I'm guessing that only 50 to 60% of what Donner WOULD have done is actually onscreen at any given time... and sometimes it's much less than that.

My big gripe with the Donner Crud is it's seeming invincibility when it comes to comparisons.  Gushers love saying that it's so much better than the Lester cut... but when I point the film's myriad weaknesses, plotholes, etc, I suddenly get the ultimate "get out of jail free" excuse.  "Hey, it's unfinished, you can't make those kinds of comparisons!"

Unless, that is, the Donner Crud comes out on top.  And then suddenly they're perfectly valid.

The reality of the situation is that Lester's cut really is better.  The speech that Lara has with Superman better fits the occasion.  And I'm not just saying that because (A) Brando slept through his Superman II scenes or (B) rookie editor Michael Thau simply chose Brando's worst takes.  Lara's conversation with Superman has the ring of a mother imploring her son to make the right choice while simultaneously allowing him room to make his own mistakes.

Jor-El, by contrast, condemns Superman for being derelict in his duty.  It's the kind of conversation a father would have with his son under the circumstances... and to me it strikes the wrong chords.  You want the parent to be anguished by the child's decision, not openly resentful.  And a mother can more effectively communicate that, in my mind.

Aside from that, you tell me which is the better line:

"General?  Haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press?"

Versus...

"General!  Would you care to step outside?"

The latter not only oozes badassitude but it also gives Lois the assurance that Superman's eating his Wheaties again (as if the flying and the uniform didn't do that already).

I just find the Lester cut to be better.  Sure, it's got some goofy slapstick comedy and such but what's striking is the fact that it's watchable.  In today's world, if a new director takes over for an old director who'd already shot 70% of the material, we'd all assume (and probably be proven right) that the final product will suck the big one.  That Lester's Superman II is not only imminently watchable but so clearly better than the Donner Crud is nothing borders on a miracle.

To be fair to Donner in all this, a lot of the Donner Crud's myriad scabs, weaknesses and shortcomings are due to Michael Thau's pathetic editorial oversight rather than Donner's directorial vision.  If it were possible for a TRUE Donner cut to ever be made, I have no doubt that it would be far superior to Lester's version.

The only problem is that it's NOT possible.

In a narrative sense, the best option is for Donner and Mankeywhatsis to collaborate on an animated Superman II so that they can create a REAL sequel without being limited to live action footage, actor non-availability, etc.  They could bring in George Newbern and Dana Delany from STAS/JLU.  10:1 Stamp would be willing to come back as Zod.  Ditto Douglas as Ursa.  Non should be easy to recast (ZING!).  I bet Hackman would be willing to voice Lex.  And who knows, maybe some better recording of Brando's lines are out there somewhere.  Etc etc etc.  In retrospect, an animated version would've clearly been the way to go, although it would likely have cost MUCH more than the tripe we got.

Oh well...

[Dark Knight Detective]

I fully agree w/ what you've stated Colors. However, what sucks the most is that even though Lester made a good Superman film, he apparently couldn't keep that up & eventually drove the franchise into the ground. Was he pressured into making 3 & 4 campy, Colors, or was this by his own will?

[Paul (ral)]

campy (though i'm not sure that is the correct term for 3 and 4) was lester's style.

2 was lester doing a mix and match job - using donner's shot material and re-shooting his own.

my problem with the RDC is that it tries to piss over lester's cut - which it doesn't deserve.

[thecolorsblend]

Another thing to consider is that Lester didn't direct IV. 

As for III, as Ral said, campy probably isn't the right word.  I usually just call it "goofy".  It's weird, everybody seemed to have their own agenda with Superman III.  Ilya Salkin supposedly wanted to bring in Supergirl, Mxy and Brainiac.  His basic vision for III has *nothing* in common with the eventual movie.

Lester hasn't publicly spoken too much about Superman (it's no accident he's absent from the special edition DVD's) but I'm guessing the over-the-top goofy stuff (in the performance sense) is just his natural inclination as a filmmaker when dealing with this subject matter.  He can't believe in it and he can't believe an audience can believe in it.  So we get crap-tons of Richard Pryor.

In terms of content, it seems we can blame the MF'ing Newmans.  People can say whatever they want about Jon Peters or the Salkinds or Warners or whoever, but for my money NOBODY has been a bigger enemy of Superman in live action than the Newmans.  A plague upon their house!  Their original draft of the first Superman movie was apparently much like S3.  Thankfully cooler heads prevailed there.  But there was no such restraint with S3 and the Newmans brought their goofy stupidity back into the mix.  Their abortion of a script coupled with Lester's natural cynical-cum-goofy approach to the material meant S3 could only ever suck the big one.  Say what you want about S4, it at least had potential.  Under better circumstances, it would've rivaled S2.  S3 could only have ever been abomination unto comic book cinema, unchallenged until 1997 when, shall we say, things took a turn.

Grr...

[Paul (ral)]

Say what you want about S4, it at least had potential.

very true - one of the main reasons i enjoy it

[Dark Knight Detective]

Another thing to consider is that Lester didn't direct IV. 

Crap, I forgot that Sindey Furie directed it.

Anyway, what I can't comprehend is why people hate Superman 4 more than 3. The original script it had seemed very interesting to execute on film. And how can you like a Superman film w/ Richard Pryor more than a Superman film that at least had potential? Eghhh... sickening.

[DocLathropBrown]

I completely disagree about the RDC (except the "General!" Line, the LC does have the better one). I thought it was brillaint, and I cannot watch the LC any more.

I have my problems with it, but they don't remove me from my appreciation of the project.

[Gotham Knight]

One must think of The RDC as fan made edit of what might have been. Once you come to terms with it, the plot holes are easier to handle. Certain things like Superman beating up the guy in the diner after the world's turned back still stand out, but I think the RDC is vastly superior even as a fan edit. Lester's, while a worthy installment, already shows signs of abandoning what made the first one the best of the franchise. It's already beginning to care less about the love story and when it does pay attention to it, it's cheesy and done without passion. Lester?s is more about getting to the fight and not relishing the ride there. You see all of these problems come to fruition in III where it becomes obvious that had Lester not had everything Donner had shot in II and the script he and Tom Mankiewicz had polished, Mr. Lester wouldn?t have had a pot to piss in and there would have never been a III for him to screw up.

All in all I think Donner?s has more to offer.

The three super villains whom are built up as fairly intimidating threats early on are made completely ineffective with Lester?s inserts of defacing Mount Rushmore, a tacky and ridiculous fight scene, and a big cellophane S just to name a few things. Luthor, who in both versions is negated to second stringer manages to retain a level of wit and remains a threat in RDC. In Lester?s he?s barely a relevant figure.

RDC feels like a continuation and doesn?t reestablish everything with a longwinded scene in Paris and it has the father/son storyline come full circle. Of course, I don?t have any problem with Superman?s mother taking the Jor-El?s place. York was fantastic. However, her sudden inclusion lifts the gravity that was ever present in the first film and it really doesn?t make a whole lot of sense. They should have just paid Brando.

The final climax scene (Fortress) in RDC isn?t an excuse for another fight scene (which in Lester?s feels like the ideas for every gag were patched together in a day.) The scene flows better on Superman?s big switch alone.

Lois Lane has a more impulsive journey to discovering Superman?s identity in RDC, but the scene where she flings herself out the window just feels right because it thrusts us back into the universe and doesn?t drag and drag?and drag to get us fully enveloped back into the world. Also, I believe the ?reveal? scene in RDC, though only a screen test is better than Lester?s hotel scene. In the RDC, it makes Lois seem smarter and makes me feel as if there was no way Superman could have avoided it despite his carefulness. In Lester?s it makes Superman look like an idiot and emasculates the entire plot of Lois trying to discover him in the first place. He basically tosses his identity in her lap so she doesn?t have to be the least bit intelligent or crafty. Instead she can look like an impulsive lunatic with an IQ lower than her shoe size. Narrowed into one sentence, Lester?s version of the reveal makes them both look really dumb and not in a funny way. The ?you wanted to with your heart? doesn?t wash with me.

In RDC the love story matters more than Superman beating the hell out of General Zod amidst a bunch of idiotic gags.