The Controversy and Chaos of Batman's origins!

[Joker81]

I am glad you put in them last two lines! lol

I blame BB for all this conspiracy crap! To me it was just a random mugging gone wrong. Whats with all the 'more motive' stuff. Its like they want to have some kind of mystical aspect to a mugging gone wrong, almost religous!

And something I dont understand, in the original comics Thomas Wayne was a pharmacist was he not??? He had nothing to do with cleaning up the crime in Gotham. Is this something else BB dreamt up or am I wrong??

I have read DC Batman from 1939 - 41, and there is no mention of it there. If this is something that appeared in later comics can someone please let me know? What year was this and how did it happen?
Because as far as I was concerned all Thomas Wayne is was a doctor. So how would taking him out make a difference to law and order in Gotham city? Someone please elaborate!!!??? lol

[Dark Knight Detective]

I blame BB for all this conspiracy crap! To me it was just a random mugging gone wrong. Whats with all the 'more motive' stuff. Its like they want to have some kind of mystical aspect to a mugging gone wrong, almost religous!

This made me laugh (because it's so hilariously true)!

Well said, & once again, it's an undeniable truth. You're on a roll, man.

[thecolorsblend]

I blame BB for all this conspiracy crap! To me it was just a random mugging gone wrong. Whats with all the 'more motive' stuff. Its like they want to have some kind of mystical aspect to a mugging gone wrong, almost religous!

In fairness to Nolan, overcomplicating the origin has been a problem for Batman comics (and indeed superhero characters) for decades.  In relation to that, I don't think BB is necessarily the worst offender.  I recall a storyline in BATMAN from the early 90's that suggested a supernatural element to the Wayne murders (the spot they were killed was fill with ancient evil or some such BS).  I've never understood this tendency.  Superhero origins are supposed to be simple and straight forward.

Infant rocketed from dying planet to Earth, raised by farmers, truth, justice, the American Way.

Random street crime, vow of vengeance, dark creature of the night.

Random (and easily preventable) murder, guilt and remorse, with great power must come great responsibility.

And so forth.  Complicating these things only makes them a farce.

And something I dont understand, in the original comics Thomas Wayne was a pharmacist was he not??? He had nothing to do with cleaning up the crime in Gotham. Is this something else BB dreamt up or am I wrong??

I dunno, I think Thomas Wayne's social conscience is implied in his character.  The extent to which BB canonized him is, perhaps, a bit of an overstatement but I think there was always SOMEthing there to overstate.

I have read DC Batman from 1939 - 41, and there is no mention of it there. If this is something that appeared in later comics can someone please let me know? What year was this and how did it happen?

I think it was mostly a 50's thing.  It got taken further over time but I think the basics of it were formed then.  When Lew Moxon suddenly became the mob boss who put a hit on the Waynes due to Thomas foiling a robbery of a costume party (when Thomas wore a prototypical Batman costume, no less!) laid the foundation for this kind of BS.  This was in Detective Comics #235.  Making matters worse, at least at one time this was actually restored to canon!

Proof once again that history repeats itself when dumbass comics writers (Jeph Loeb very possibly being the worst offender) are stuck for ideas.

[Dark Knight Detective]

I blame BB for all this conspiracy crap! To me it was just a random mugging gone wrong. Whats with all the 'more motive' stuff. Its like they want to have some kind of mystical aspect to a mugging gone wrong, almost religous!

In fairness to Nolan, overcomplicating the origin has been a problem for Batman comics (and indeed superhero characters) for decades.  In relation to that, I don't think BB is necessarily the worst offender.  I recall a storyline in BATMAN from the early 90's that suggested a supernatural element to the Wayne murders (the spot they were killed was fill with ancient evil or some such BS).  I've never understood this tendency.  Superhero origins are supposed to be simple and straight forward.

Colors, I find that the origin you're referring to about the "ancient evil" (it's from Batman: Holy Terror) is a helluva a lot better than BB's. Why? Because the story has a religious theme to it (Bruce is a priest),so some sort of alteration was mandatory in a way.

Begins' origin, on the other hand, almost completely alienates me, & I mean a lot of things. For examples: the Wayne's murders were planned, Bruce wanders aimlessly around the world, Ra's al Ghul is his mentor (WHAT!?), he has bad taste in women, etc. I'm not blaming Nolan, but I think that Goyer could've done a lot better.

[Paul (ral)]

Were the Wayne's murders planned in Begins?

I never considered them to be.

[The Dark Knight]

Were the Wayne's murders planned in Begins?

I never considered them to be.

Neither.

It was just a random act of violence.

[johnnygobbs]

I'm not sure whether the killing of the Waynes in BB was a random act of violence.  It was one of the few plot points that I felt were not quite clear.

It appears at the beginning of the film that Joe Chill is a lone mugger who more or less accidentally kills the Waynes as a means of getting his hands on their cash.

However, later in the film it's implied by Ra's Al Ghul that the Waynes' death was a necessary element of the League of Shadow's plan to raze Gotham City to the ground and rebulit it in their own image.  Ra's Al Ghul suggests that Thomas Wayne's financial lifeline to the city was standing in the way of his grand masterplan, and that he therefore needed to be taken out.  Whether by him or someone entirely random and not party to his plan, I don't know but certainly his statements suggest that he may have orchestrated Thomas Wayne's death somehow.

With further regard to the comments concerning whether Thomas Wayne had a hand in 'cleaning up the city', I believe that although he was professionally a physician the comics do suggest that he always had a particularly liberal conscience and that generations of the Wayne family have undertaken a patrician responsibility in caring for the needs of Gotham City.  Whilst Thomas Wayne probably had no obvious direct political or legal role in 'cleaning up' Gotham City, he may have sat on the board of city councellors or been at the forefront of campaigns against the city's mobsters especially if as a physician he was regularly exposed to the various victims of Gotham's gang wars.

[Joker81]

With further regard to the comments concerning whether Thomas Wayne had a hand in 'cleaning up the city', I believe that although he was professionally a physician the comics do suggest that he always had a particularly liberal conscience and that generations of the Wayne family have undertaken a patrician responsibility in caring for the needs of Gotham City.  Whilst Thomas Wayne probably had no obvious direct political or legal role in 'cleaning up' Gotham City, he may have sat on the board of city councellors or been at the forefront of campaigns against the city's mobsters especially if as a physician he was regularly exposed to the various victims of Gotham's gang wars.

Yes well in relation to the comics this is all just theory isnt it??

In the original comics, which we have long debated which is truer, Begins or Batman, Wayne was indeed a doctor. Nothing else. So which is more true to the ORIGINAL comics, as in the murders - whether Napier killed them or not, we dont know who killed them (just like the 1st year of the comic) until 2 thirds into the Batman movie. So to me Batman is the truer origin in terms of early comics.

Nolan ripping a shot off from an eighties comic (Batman year one I think it was) of Bruce sitting between his dead parents doesnt make Begins more truer!! lol

Anyhow, thanks very much guys for all the feedback here. Its great reading your posts and some good information here.

[THE BAT-MAN]

Jack and Bob didnt follow them straight from the Exit, did they? It was only when they started heading through the allies? Cant remember.

But can u imagine Bob saying "Here Jack what about them two ladies?" Nah, Jack would want to have the sadistic kick of seeing the man trying to protect his wife only to gun him down in front of her. Its a sick world we live in. lol

I also believe that Jack definatley didnt know who they were. It was an opportunist mugging and murder. Do you really think Jack Napier wanted her pearls??? Nah, I think Bob did.(I imagine Bob wanted the pearls to give to a chick he had his eye on). They didnt know who they were. It was opportunistic. I just cant see them specifically picking out Thomas and Martha Wayne (This is BB bullsh1t. In the real world the mob do not take out high profile targets like that- without very very good reason and backing, because they know the heat that would come down on them if they did. Another reason why I think Jack would not have bragged about it the next day- How keep a murder like that secret for nearly 30 years!) I imagine when Jack and Bob seen the papers the next day they were probably shocked, briefly. Then Jack probably just laughed.

Joker81, once again you have created another brilliant post. You're on a roll, & I agree w/ everything you have stated.

I praise you!

I blame BB for all this conspiracy crap! To me it was just a random mugging gone wrong. Whats with all the 'more motive' stuff. Its like they want to have some kind of mystical aspect to a mugging gone wrong, almost religous!

This made me laugh (because it's so hilariously true)!

Well said, & once again, it's an undeniable truth. You're on a roll, man.

Before I begin to express myself.  I want it to be known that, I am not a Comicbook purist, who believes everything in a comicbook is truth.  Instead,  I believe in good story telling whether it come from a comicbook or a film.  There seems to be quite a stir regarding my commentary on the A.C. and also some confusion.  I hope to resolve the matter and bring understanding to all the bat members. 

Well, let's begin shall we!

I have been a fan of Batman for a very long time and have always been wishing to share my vision of the character.  Whether it be writing my own story or simply just talking to those who are willing to listen.  I mean, what Batman fan wouldn't want to work for DC and spend hours on end, writing their own stories regarding their favorite character?  I have had many different influences on the subject matter of the character.  From the Comicbooks, to Tim Burton's films, to The Batman Animated Series, and of course the music by Danny Elfman and Shirley Walker.  Chris Nolan's franchise of Batman Begins and The Dark Knight  have never been an influence on my theories or beliefs on story telling.  In fact,  I never even considered the possiblilty of the Wayne murder being a conspiracy by the League of Shadows, untill I watched the film about a dozen times, and truly it still doesn't make any sense.

My theories about the Wayne murders possibly being a hit, was a concept I had started since I was very young, because I wanted to be able to create my own comicbook series and share it someday with DC.  I really wanted it to be a spin off series based on Tim Burton's Batman Films, but still keeping it fresh and original.  The biggest influence that started it all was when I watched, Batman Mask of the Phantasm in theatres in 1993.  I got to see a pre Joker who worked for the mob as a hired hitman and that got me thinking.  The big question "What if"?  I had seen Tim Burton's film and even though his concept of Joker being the killer of Batman's parents angered alot of fans.  I felt it was absolutely right for the story telling.  I did alot of research in reading the comics from Bob Kane and Bill Finger.  I wanted to learn everything there was to know about the core of Batman, his past, his father Thomas Wayne who he was and how he became a wealthy citizen and public figure in Gotham.  I also wanted to get the best understanding of the Joker and bring him to his core.  Of course I never ended up writing anything instead I kept everything to myself.  I really couldn't talk about it to anyone, because no one could really comprehend my knowledge or understanding of the character, until I found this website and honestly I thank God I did.  You have to understand and I don't mean to offend anyone but Comicbooks, Graphic Novels, Films, and Television Shows are all stories based on Fanboy interpretations,  there is no distinction between right story telling and wrong story telling.  Instead, everyone chooses what story is right for them. 

I want it to be clear that, I never wanted people to think that Burton's film wasn't a random street crime, but I did want people to understand that through interpreted story telling it can be viewed the other way around.  Having said all of this I hope that I have helped resolve any conflict or confusion.

I would now like to address the following members

Joker81 I respect your opinions, but in truth Bob the goon is not the other mugger with the young Jack Napier.  Also as far as the mob not willing to take high profile citizens down because of the heat it would bring, consider this fact,  I have studied different origins of organized crime, the Mafia, and the history of its people and I tell you this, it is believed that members of a Mob have infiltrated the governments justice system by using their influence on families, their wealth, and their silent partners.  Trust me if they wanted to take someone out they could.  Even though the Godfather films are fictious and based on Sicilian and Italian heritages  this statement that Michael Corleone gives rings quite true " It's not Impossible, Nothing is Impossible." "If anything in this life is certain... If history's taught us anything....  Is that you can kill anyone."

To the Dark Knight Detective  I have nothing against you, but you should be wise, and consider that not every opinion is a fact or truth, you don't need to make uneccessary comments.

[johnnygobbs]

In the original comics, which we have long debated which is truer, Begins or Batman, Wayne was indeed a doctor. Nothing else. So which is more true to the ORIGINAL comics, as in the murders - whether Napier killed them or not, we dont know who killed them (just like the 1st year of the comic) until 2 thirds into the Batman movie. So to me Batman is the truer origin in terms of early comics.

Nolan ripping a shot off from an eighties comic (Batman year one I think it was) of Bruce sitting between his dead parents doesnt make Begins more truer!! lol

If you check my check my side profile I think it's pretty clear which Batman film I prefer between Batman '89 and Batman Begins.

My comments regarding the possibility of whether there was some underlying reason to the Waynes' murder apart from a random mugging has nothing to do with Begins.  I was simply impressed by THE BAT-MAN's suggestions on the AC commentary regarding a possible reason as to why the Waynes were killed.  As far as my knowledge of comic book lore goes, regardless of Begins' interpretation of the characters, the Waynes were involved in civic affairs.  Thomas Wayne wasn't a typically spoiled, idle socialite like I imagine a lot of Gotham's wealthy to be, but a doctor who demonstrated compassion for the less fortunate members of Gotham City.  It therefore would make sense for him to be involved in confronting Gotham's criminal element.

On reflection, I don't believe THE BAT-MAN's interpretation necessarily undermines the portrayal of Jack Napier as an 'A1 nutboy'; though arguably it makes it clear that he was always destined for 'greater things' within the criminal fraternity rather than being a simple bum like Nick and Eddie.

PS:  These are all interpretations.  We can agree to disagree.  One of the reasons why these films are so special is that they allow a degree of interpretation.  Still, I can't wait to discuss Returns which is if anything even more ambiguous and open to interpretation.