The Controversy and Chaos of Batman's origins!

[Dark Knight Detective]

^ Not sure if that idea of having Napier being "hired" for the job excites me, Im glad alot of what Hamm wanted to do with BR was scrapped.

I have to agree. I like the idea of Napier having a sick personality a lot better. Ending what was a joyful night out to the movies so abruptly.

[THE BAT-MAN]

I have to agree. I like the idea of Napier having a sick personality a lot better. Ending what was a joyful night out to the movies so abruptly.

No matter how you look at it,  whether he was hired to kill thomas or it was just a random coincidence, Napier still has a sick personality.  He shows it by killing bruce's mother without remorse and taking pleasure in plaguing the young boy's mind with a devious question.  Not to mention Napiers police profile explains his violent mood swings and him being emotionally unstable.  Again its all apart of his character, if he ever had to follow orders given to him by the mob he would do it, but with his own agenda in mind.

[Joker81]

No offence to the OP, but I prefer the mugging of the Waynes to be a random act of crime - no big elaborate plot!! This is part of the reason I hated Begins.

You're completely right.  I think all superhero origins should be relatively simple and straight forward.  The more you complicate it by adding in extra elements, elaborate plots, conspiracies, whatever, etc, the more it somehow waters down the character's psychology.  Of no character is this truer of than Batman (although Spider-Man is a close second, as John Byrne so aptly demonstrated).

B89 gives us that simplicity, with the impersonal being MADE personal.

Yeah and its not only that, making the death plot of the parents this massive scheme makes it so unrealistic. Also if it was a massive operation so many people would know about it that it could never be kept under wraps! lol

It makes more sense for it to be a random act of crime because that is something which Batman detests! And we can all relate to that as an audience, or reader. Because every person in the world has been the victim of crime at one stage or another, at what ever level. Giving the Wayne murders more logic and explaination only gives it less. The random robbery makes more sense to why Batman fights crime.

Which is another reason why i hate the fact that Joe Chill gets caught. Ok he may have in the comics, I am not sure. But if the system is working, then why put on a cowl and fight crime? Why not join the police force instead? This is something I have a problem with BB. The Bruce Wayne in that film to me is more likley to join the police than he is putting on a mask and fighting crime. Michael Keaton and Tim Burtons Batman to me is more logical. They didnt catch the waynes killer, the police are not in control - he has no faith in them. Its all about the world and settings.

Anyway, I dont want to get side tracked.

I understand what all of you are saying and I can agree with you on some levels.  One thing you have to realize is that I was sharing a what if story.  The only reason why had even proposed the idea that the murder of the waynes could have been a hit was because, In Detective Comics #235 (1956), Batman learns that Chill was not a mere robber, but actually a hitman who murdered the Waynes on orders from a Mafia boss named Lew Moxon.  I thought it would be more interesting if this story was based on Tim Burton's interpretation.  There are some things that I find interesting conscerning the origin story in the comicbook, and the films Batman(1989) and Batman Begins.  One is that in issue #33   When the waynes are leaving the theater the unknown gunman approaches them from the front, he appears poor, desperate, and in a hurry very similar to that in batman begins we see a very poor, deperate Joe Chill who's in a hurry.  To me these versions of story telling felt like a random mugging despite the fact that in begins its stated that the League of Shadows were behind it all.  I mean how would anybody know that the waynes would leave the opera early and take an exit that leads to an alley?  It doesn't make any sense if the league of shadows were behind it all.  Another thing I wanted to add was that in the beginning of Batman(1989) when were introduced to punks nick and eddie we see that they too are poor and desperate and they also commit a random mugging.  However,  I found it very interesting when we see in Batman(1989) how the waynes were mugged by a unknown mugger possibly Joe Chill and murdered by Jack Napier.  First we see them stalking the wayne family instead of approaching them from the front, this is very different from the comicbook and Batman Begins.  They're clothing is not the fashion of someone who is poor or desperate instead they both look like gangsters/hitman from a mafia.  Jack's hair is oiled and greased just right his clothing looks expensive in fact it's not that different from Thomas Wayne's clothing.  It's evident in the scene that Jack was really only conscerned with doing away with the wayne's, to him it wasn't about money he even wore leather gloves possibly to hide his prints.  However, his unknown accomplice (Joe Chill) was shocked and horrified at what happened, to me this shows that he did not know of Jack's true intentions.  One has to also understand that Thomas Wayne was an important man who had alot of influence in Gotham.  One could say that he was Gotham's King and Bruce was the young prince.  With his money and power it's possible that he tried to clean up Gotham and do away with crime organizations, of course this would have been bad for the mob which could have resulted to him being murdered off.  Again, I'm not suggesting that Batman(1989) is not a random act of crime, but I am suggesting that it can be viewed the other way around.  I know, alot of you feel that Bruce feels guilty for his parents murder because he believes it was his fault.  For this is what motivates him to become batman.  You also believe that if the origin story were to be something more than a random act of crime, this would waterdown the psychology of the character.  However, even if the story was about his parent's being murdered by the mob,  somehow someway  bruce would still feel that it was his own fault because deep down he believes he could prevent it and again it would not change his destined course.    The cool thing about Tim Burton's Batman Films is that not everything is explained you can go beyond and expand the story, it truly is left to one's imagination.  And that's really all that matters, if you like a random mugging great if not their are ways to explore new avenues to the story telling.  The same thing is true for comicbooks.  Anyway thank you for all of your comments and letting me share my expanded thoughts about the film.

I like what you have said here, and I am not totally disagreeing with it. It is one of the better explainations on here I have heard.

However, I think Napier doesnt need a reason to kill someone. I just think he was a cold blooded murderer, a psychotic. I dont think he knew who it was coming out of the theater. Whether or not Jack was wearing expensive clothes is irrelevant. He's a criminal, he has to keep theiving and robbing. Maybe he got a kick out of it. Maybe they picked the Waynes because they looked rich? Maybe he picked them out because rich people went to that particular theater. Maybe he killed them to scare or impress older mob people. And another theory is he's just a sadist and in the long run didnt tell any bosses he done it because lets be honest, no boss wants a lose cannon like that in their organisation.

Grissom knew what he was like, and only used him for mucel, under a fake promise he would run the organisation.

Jack napier obviously came from a working class background. The waynes on the other hand didnt. Maybe he just didnt like the upper classes.

[johnnygobbs]

I've read the Sam Hamm screenpay for 'Batman 2' and there are aspects of it that I like, such as the corruption amongst Gotham's upper classes who have essentially conspired to have Wayne's parents killed.  This screenplay also rsolves some of the complaints levelled at the end of Batman '89 with regard to Batman killing his parents' murderer.  According to Hamm's screenplay, Wayne's parents murder goes way beyond Jack Napier thereby resolving the issue of whether Bruce Wayne needs to continue acting as Batman.

However, as many people have suggested the young Jack Napier is more effective as a psychopath acting on his own instincts rather than a hired hood contracted to kill Thomas and Martha Wayne.

[THE BAT-MAN]

However, as many people have suggested the young Jack Napier is more effective as a psychopath acting on his own instincts rather than a hired hood contracted to kill Thomas and Martha Wayne.

Who's to say that he didn't act on his own instincts? or that he was even a hired hood contracted to kill Thomas and Martha Wayne?  I mean it is possible that this scenario can be viewed in a different perspectives.  He could have been the one to suggest that thomas be murdered off and that he gladly do it for free.  As Joker81 suggested he could have planned to murder the waynes without the conscent of his bosses only to impress them.  Just a thought here but, according to Jack's clothing and style I believe he idolized gangsters, he was only 15yrs old when he had his first assault with a deadly weapon.  I think that it's very important that one understands that all of this was before he became the psychopathic Joker.  I can go on and on about different scenarios, which in my mind makes this all very interesting
but, I do have to have respect for everyone's opinion irregardless.

I like what you have said here, and I am not totally disagreeing with it. It is one of the better explainations on here I have heard.

Thank you for your understanding.

I dont think he knew who it was coming out of the theater. Whether or not Jack was wearing expensive clothes is irrelevant. He's a criminal, he has to keep theiving and robbing. Maybe he got a kick out of it. Maybe they picked the Waynes because they looked rich? Maybe he picked them out because rich people went to that particular theater.

You know what I find interesting concerning the whole "they looked rich" concept?  The fact that following the Waynes exit out of the theatre, they're were three women who looked more well off and vulnerable and considering the Waynes reputation for being rich, why go after them for a pair of pearls when they got millions?  You know what I mean?

[gordonblu]

According to the end credits there is a reference to Young Jack Napier but not a Young Bob the goon  instead it reads the other mugger.  So I seriously doubt it could have been bob the goon.  And according to Ral's sources in an interview michael uslan states that the other gunman with Jack was indeed Joe Chill. 


[/quote/]

If they listed Hugo Blick as Joe Chill it would have been confusing anyway.

But seriously, it's not stated who the other thug is in the movie so I feel that is is open to interpretation, like I stated before. Michael Uslan says its Joe Chill , but that doesn't mean someone can't think of it in a different way. As I said, that's what makes a movie that doesn't hand spoon you every detail fun, fifty people can watch it and come to fifty different conclusions.

[johnnygobbs]

Who's to say that he didn't act on his own instincts? or that he was even a hired hood contracted to kill Thomas and Martha Wayne?  I mean it is possible that this scenario can be viewed in a different perspectives.  He could have been the one to suggest that thomas be murdered off and that he gladly do it for free.  As Joker81 suggested he could have planned to murder the waynes without the conscent of his bosses only to impress them.  Just a thought here but, according to Jack's clothing and style I believe he idolized gangsters, he was only 15yrs old when he had his first assault with a deadly weapon.  I think that it's very important that one understands that all of this was before he became the psychopathic Joker.  I can go on and on about different scenarios, which in my mind makes this all very interesting
but, I do have to have respect for everyone's opinion irregardless.

I've just listened to the AC commentary and I've got to say I'm really convinced by your argument concerning Jack Napier being essentially hired to take out Thomas Wayne, possibly because of the latter's political influence and vocal opposition to the gangster rackets.

You know what I find interesting concerning the whole "they looked rich" concept?  The fact that following the Waynes exit out of the theatre, they're were three women who looked more well off and vulnerable and considering the Waynes reputation for being rich, why go after them for a pair of pearls when they got millions?  You know what mean?

I think you're right.  The three women who follow the Waynes out of the Monarch Theatre are dressed in expensive looking furs and hats, and give the impression of being at least as wealthy as Bruce's family, and possibly more vulnerable.  It does seem likely that the Waynes were targetted as 'hits', and as you have stated psycho Jack may have taken it upon himself to do the dirty work for his superiors, or even better, make an early impression by taking out the Waynes as a means of ingratiating himself with the mob elite, such as Grissom. 

This may even have been Jack's first killing, a notion which only adds to the film's operetic tone and the significance of Bruce Wayne and Jack Napier's already intertwined lives.  In many ways the moment could almost be as significant in Jack's development as it was for Bruce, although by the time we first meet Jack in the context of the film it has faded into the recesses of all the other various killings he's done since.

[Joker81]

I dont think he knew who it was coming out of the theater. Whether or not Jack was wearing expensive clothes is irrelevant. He's a criminal, he has to keep theiving and robbing. Maybe he got a kick out of it. Maybe they picked the Waynes because they looked rich? Maybe he picked them out because rich people went to that particular theater.

You know what I find interesting concerning the whole "they looked rich" concept?  The fact that following the Waynes exit out of the theatre, they're were three women who looked more well off and vulnerable and considering the Waynes reputation for being rich, why go after them for a pair of pearls when they got millions?  You know what mean?

Jack and Bob didnt follow them straight from the Exit, did they? It was only when they started heading through the allies? Cant remember.

But can u imagine Bob saying "Here Jack what about them two ladies?" Nah, Jack would want to have the sadistic kick of seeing the man trying to protect his wife only to gun him down in front of her. Its a sick world we live in. lol

I also believe that Jack definatley didnt know who they were. It was an opportunist mugging and murder. Do you really think Jack Napier wanted her pearls??? Nah, I think Bob did.(I imagine Bob wanted the pearls to give to a chick he had his eye on). They didnt know who they were. It was opportunistic. I just cant see them specifically picking out Thomas and Martha Wayne (This is BB bullsh1t. In the real world the mob do not take out high profile targets like that- without very very good reason and backing, because they know the heat that would come down on them if they did. Another reason why I think Jack would not have bragged about it the next day- How keep a murder like that secret for nearly 30 years!) I imagine when Jack and Bob seen the papers the next day they were probably shocked, briefly. Then Jack probably just laughed.

[Dark Knight Detective]

Jack and Bob didnt follow them straight from the Exit, did they? It was only when they started heading through the allies? Cant remember.

But can u imagine Bob saying "Here Jack what about them two ladies?" Nah, Jack would want to have the sadistic kick of seeing the man trying to protect his wife only to gun him down in front of her. Its a sick world we live in. lol

I also believe that Jack definatley didnt know who they were. It was an opportunist mugging and murder. Do you really think Jack Napier wanted her pearls??? Nah, I think Bob did.(I imagine Bob wanted the pearls to give to a chick he had his eye on). They didnt know who they were. It was opportunistic. I just cant see them specifically picking out Thomas and Martha Wayne (This is BB bullsh1t. In the real world the mob do not take out high profile targets like that- without very very good reason and backing, because they know the heat that would come down on them if they did. Another reason why I think Jack would not have bragged about it the next day- How keep a murder like that secret for nearly 30 years!) I imagine when Jack and Bob seen the papers the next day they were probably shocked, briefly. Then Jack probably just laughed.

Joker81, once again you have created another brilliant post. You're on a roll, & I agree w/ everything you have stated.

I praise you!

[johnnygobbs]

I also believe that Jack definatley didnt know who they were. It was an opportunist mugging and murder. Do you really think Jack Napier wanted her pearls??? Nah, I think Bob did.(I imagine Bob wanted the pearls to give to a chick he had his eye on). They didnt know who they were. It was opportunistic. I just cant see them specifically picking out Thomas and Martha Wayne (This is BB bullsh1t. In the real world the mob do not take out high profile targets like that- without very very good reason and backing, because they know the heat that would come down on them if they did. Another reason why I think Jack would not have bragged about it the next day- How keep a murder like that secret for nearly 30 years!) I imagine when Jack and Bob seen the papers the next day they were probably shocked, briefly. Then Jack probably just laughed.

The heat would only have come down on the mob if there was something to directly link them to the killings.  Like a few of us have suggested, it's possible that Jack wasn't even with the mob at the point he took out the Waynes.  He might just have been a crazy kid trying to get the mob's attention.

Also, in view of the corruption that seemed endemic amongst some of the police force in Batman, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that Grissom or one of the other mobsters used their connections to 'cover up' the murders, regardless of how powerful the Wayne family were.  As soon as his parents were dead, only Bruce Wayne would have been left amongst that family and it's likely that his guardians would not have wanted to push the investigation of his parents murder since it would have caused yet more trauma for the young boy.

Furthermore, it's unlikely a guy like Jack would be able to keep the Waynes murder a secret (heck, he didn't even bother trying to hide his affair with Alicia from Grissom and that was several years later when you'd expect him to have been a little less reckless.)  If the mob were to then find out that Jack was responsible for the Waynes murders it's unlikely that they'd want anything to do with the guy, and they surely would have made plans to take him Jack out themselves whilst he was still in his prime (unless of course, they somehow approved of Jack's actions.)

PS:  I'm just playing devil's advocate.
I have no idea what the reasons for the Jack killing the Waynes were.  I just think there's a certain degree of ambiguity to argue that the Waynes killing was pre-meditated.