The Controversy and Chaos of Batman's origins!

[TheBatMan0887]

Oh sorry, statment retracted. I had mixed feelings about saying that anyways.

[TheBatMan0887]

Also, I finaly read the BB influences.

It seems it's half half with comic and being a fan. It's appearent that he wanted to use the comic stories which would resemble the Burton ones. We can tell this by his altering of Al Ghul into BatMan's past.

We can see that when Ra's Al Ghul reveals himself, Bruce is at a party. This is simlar to how on the Burton version, a party is also interupted from at least Bruce's perspective just before Jack becomes Joker.

EDIT: I'm thinking that alot of this is as I previously presumed (before people said BM was horridly innaccurate, something I didn't think existed till 2008), that because the Burton BatMan was heavily inspired by the comics, Sam Hamm's story involvment (who wrote some stories too), they share similairties. It could be oddly coinsidental, but much of Burton and Nolan's share similarities due to a combination of stories being similar throughout. He could have had smaller references tie it together, like the trip to the BatCave and giving her an antidote, which mimicks the solution of the product contamination.

There are less similarities that would be due to small tribute and fandom in TDK.

EDIT 2: About what I ment in the other post before this page on Joker is how much more hardcore he acts, yet, it's still not dominently this simple serial killer I've found the original to be. The Nolan Joker only robbed a bank to hatch a plan, he also only went on TV to get BatMan to take off his mask. This means that after that, he would only be an overly wild character again, not any less in the vein of Burton's Joker IMO. Just with less gags.

[Joker81]

No offence to the OP, but I prefer the mugging of the Waynes to be a random act of crime - no big elaborate plot!! This is part of the reason I hated Begins.

You're completely right.  I think all superhero origins should be relatively simple and straight forward.  The more you complicate it by adding in extra elements, elaborate plots, conspiracies, whatever, etc, the more it somehow waters down the character's psychology.  Of no character is this truer of than Batman (although Spider-Man is a close second, as John Byrne so aptly demonstrated).

B89 gives us that simplicity, with the impersonal being MADE personal.

Yeah and its not only that, making the death plot of the parents this massive scheme makes it so unrealistic. Also if it was a massive operation so many people would know about it that it could never be kept under wraps! lol

It makes more sense for it to be a random act of crime because that is something which Batman detests! And we can all relate to that as an audience, or reader. Because every person in the world has been the victim of crime at one stage or another, at what ever level. Giving the Wayne murders more logic and explaination only gives it less. The random robbery makes more sense to why Batman fights crime.

Which is another reason why i hate the fact that Joe Chill gets caught. Ok he may have in the comics, I am not sure. But if the system is working, then why put on a cowl and fight crime? Why not join the police force instead? This is something I have a problem with BB. The Bruce Wayne in that film to me is more likley to join the police than he is putting on a mask and fighting crime. Michael Keaton and Tim Burtons Batman to me is more logical. They didnt catch the waynes killer, the police are not in control - he has no faith in them. Its all about the world and settings.

Anyway, I dont want to get side tracked.

[thecolorsblend]

Which is another reason why i hate the fact that Joe Chill gets caught. Ok he may have in the comics, I am not sure. But if the system is working, then why put on a cowl and fight crime? Why not join the police force instead? This is something I have a problem with BB. The Bruce Wayne in that film to me is more likley to join the police than he is putting on a mask and fighting crime. Michael Keaton and Tim Burtons Batman to me is more logical. They didnt catch the waynes killer, the police are not in control - he has no faith in them. Its all about the world and settings.

I'd say it goes even beyond that.  To me, it speaks of character motivation.  Burton's character became Batman, imho, as much to exercise control as anything.  It's about Order.  And also Authority.  It's not about so much about justice, becoming a symbol or any of that other BS.  Deep down, he has to feel that there is Order in the world.  And if it doesn't exist, he'll become Order itself.  Hence, this Batman is perfectly willing to kill if it comes down to it.  The psychological profile fits like a glove.

With Nolan's Batman (and, similarly, the Denny O'Neil Batman from the comics), it's not so easy.  Sure, the police force is a bit of a joke, but given his stated motivations, I could more easily see this Bruce Wayne (as you say) becoming a cop and working inside the system to clean it up.  He'd be the Untouchable, the guy who can't be bought.  I just can't picture someone like this taking the law into his own hands.  It just doesn't fit.  But even if he were to do it (against all reason and logic), I couldn't picture him doing something so grandiose as inventing Batman.  I could sooner see him becoming a non lethal quasi-Punisher.  He'd put on a ski mask, grab a baseball bat or a crow bar and maybe a flash bomb or two and beat the snot out of street level thugs.  No supervillains, maybe only the occasional mobster but nothing higher than that.  Certainly he wouldn't challenge the GCPD's corrupt elements unless he had to.  Etc.  I just can't psychologically convince myself of this character.  Burton's remains the only one that fully makes sense.

Anyway, I dont want to get side tracked.

This is the Internet, it's all about getting sidetracked! 

[batass4880]

I'd say it goes even beyond that.  To me, it speaks of character motivation.  Burton's character became Batman, imho, as much to exercise control as anything.  It's about Order.  And also Authority.  It's not about so much about justice, becoming a symbol or any of that other BS.  Deep down, he has to feel that there is Order in the world.  And if it doesn't exist, he'll become Order itself.  Hence, this Batman is perfectly willing to kill if it comes down to it.  The psychological profile fits like a glove.

No disrespect, but wasn?t Burton?s Batman about cold-blooded revenge?

I thought he was supposed to be on a sick and absurd holy mission that he knows he?ll never win. If he restores order and authority then it?s a bonus, but as far as he?s concerned, his only reason for going out at night is to numb the pain from the murder of his parents.

In '89, he probably could've cared less about those tourists who were mugged or ending the Joker's reign of terror, just as long as he got the sick pleasure of kicking their asses, knowing that he could defeat the evil force that once took his parents away from him.

[Dark Knight Detective]

In '89, he probably could've cared less about those tourists who were mugged or ending the Joker's reign of terror, just as long as he got the sick pleasure of kicking their asses, knowing that he could defeat the evil force that once took his parents away from him.

The whooping he gave those thugs was to show that criminals like them & the corrupted would not drive Gotham City into the ground, & that he would be watching over it.

[thecolorsblend]

No disrespect, but wasn?t Burton?s Batman about cold-blooded revenge?

If it was, why didn't he hang it up after whacking the Joker?

I really don't see how that line of reasoning relates more to Burton's Batman than any other.

[batass4880]

If it was, why didn't he hang it up after whacking the Joker?

I really don't see how that line of reasoning relates more to Burton's Batman than any other.

I don't know, I just thought that the whole psychology of the character was driven by revenge and compulsion. I figured he didn't retire after killing him because the pain didn't simply go away so he had to keep fighting, like an addiction.

[The Dark Knight]

Batman hates criminals, crime and all that goes with it. The man that created him and his crusade may be dead, but his kind were still present. And the pain just doesn't go away overnight.

[batass4880]

The whooping he gave those thugs was to show that criminals like them & the corrupted would not drive Gotham City into the ground, & that he would be watching over it.

True, but I can't help but think that he subconsciously wants crime and violence to happen, just as an excuse to fulfill his mission and have a quick fix of power, only to feel empty and alone afterward.

Just like the 1939 Batman, all he did at home was sit next to a radio or police scanner, waiting for sh*t to happen so he could put on the suit and fight crime. To me, that's like OCD.