The Controversy and Chaos of Batman's origins!

[Joker81]

I dont understand all this Batmans origin is flawed in batman. Batman was not an origin story. The only gripe some fans have is having Jack Napier the killer of the waynes. Which was endorsed by the creator of Batman Bob Kane at the time because he realised the artistic and creative side to it, hence why Joker is Batmans arch nemisis.

It also establishes Batmans hate for random mindless crime and murder - something which Joker ultimatley stands for thus making it an irony of sorts.

Batman is not an origin story - so I dont see how it is flawed. I always thought the guy with Napier was Bob - that would also make more sense. If people want to get into origin, Batman never knew who was the killer of his parents until later in his history. Originally the killer got away scot free which is why Bruce becomes Batman. So in a way it doesnt matter if the other guy is Joe Chill, Bob or the man on the moon.

Which brings me to my next point. If people have a gripe with a plot point of Batman and Napier being the murderer of the waynes surley they have a bigger gripe with Batman Begins, which is indeed an origin story and is flawed from start to finish.

I personally prefer Batman over begins any day, but I understand the story telling and movie making process. I understand that certain things have to be changed for story telling and artistic librities, novels that are made into films are the same. But I hate when so called Batman fans nit pick Batman when Begins and The Dark Knight for that matter have the same if not more issues concerning the source material.

[Paul (ral)]

I always thought the guy with Napier was Bob...

As did I. But now when I think about it, Bob has the same sensibilities as the Joker and wouldn't have reacted in the same manner as the second mugger in the flashback.

[Joker81]

I see your point. But they were young then. Bob (if it was him) didnt expect Jack to shoot the Waynes. He just expected to mug them. Its like every thug who end up being in gangs and end up murderers to keep their little empire.

Start small, break ins, muggings then they end up doing worse things. Me personally believe the character of Jack Napier was a psychopath and murderer. Falling in the acid only helped him unleash this psychotic side to his personality to another level. No doubt he was born with a screw loose. But the chemicals in the acid obviously brain damaged his psyche even more.

No offence to the OP, but I prefer the mugging of the Waynes to be a random act of crime - no big elaborate plot!! This is part of the reason I hated Begins.

[Dark Knight Detective]

I see your point. But they were young then. Bob (if it was him) didnt expect Jack to shoot the Waynes. He just expected to mug them. Its like every thug who end up being in gangs and end up murderers to keep their little empire.

Start small, break ins, muggings then they end up doing worse things. Me personally believe the character of Jack Napier was a psychopath and murderer. Falling in the acid only helped him unleash this psychotic side to his personality to another level. No doubt he was born with a screw loose. But the chemicals in the acid obviously brain damaged his psyche even more.

No offence to the OP, but I prefer the mugging of the Waynes to be a random act of crime - no big elaborate plot!! This is part of the reason I hated Begins.

Solid post, Joker81. You have indeed spoken the undeniable truth, & I can't agree w/ you any further.

[johnnygobbs]

As did I. But now when I think about it, Bob has the same sensibilities as the Joker and wouldn't have reacted in the same manner as the second mugger in the flashback.

Although Bob is undeniably loyal to Jack I never saw him as quite as vicious as his friend.  I think it's perfectly feasible that the other guy at the Wayne murder scene could be Bob.
On the other hand, there wasn't much of a likeness between the guy in the flashback and Tracy Walter.  It's possible that the other guy was 'Joe Chill' and maybe, Jack killed him later on (possibly as a means of covering up his own murder of the Waynes) which is why you never hear from him again.
Slightly off subject - The guy who played Jack Napier in flashback, Hugo Blick, was amazing and genuinely scary.  If you splashed some white facepaint on him and dyed his hair green, there's your definitive Joker (not to take anything away from Nicholson or Ledger).

[BatmAngelus]

Slightly off subject - The guy who played Jack Napier in flashback, Hugo Blick, was amazing and genuinely scary.  If you splashed some white facepaint on him and dyed his hair green, there's your definitive Joker (not to take anything away from Nicholson or Ledger).

He was perfect for that bit.  I have a feeling he was hired off his own resemblance to the comic book Joker.
As for what he'd look like in Joker makeup, see my avatar for a piece of fan art that an artist/poster named stationcommand made on BOF.

[batass4880]

I seriously doubt that the second mugger was Chill, even if it wasn't Bob. Why would they have the killer of the Waynes from the comics in the scene and not have him murder them? It makes no sense.

[Dark Knight Detective]

I seriously doubt that the second mugger was Chill, even if it wasn't Bob. Why would they have the killer of the Waynes from the comics in the scene and not have him murder them? It makes no sense.

My friend, you are not alone.

[batass4880]

^ Thank you!

And if it was Chill, you'd think that it would've been made known to please the fanboys.

That's what's awesome about Burton's Bat-films is that you don't have to be a fanboy or educated on the comic book to like them. You just have to love great film making, even though his films are arguably closer to the source material.

[Dark Knight Detective]

And if it was Chill, you'd think that it would've been made known to please the fanboys.

I wonder how they would react to the fact that the Joker would've been the Waynes' murderer if he had been created back in 1939.

That's what's awesome about Burton's Bat-films is that you don't have to be a fanboy or educated on the comic book to like them. You just have to love great film making, even though his films are arguably closer to the source material.

Exactly. The Burton Bat films have that aura to them that I think anyone could feel.

And I bet that these fanboys are teenage boys that have very little knowledge of Batman's history. They probably call themselves "fans" b/c the Nolan films are mainstream movies (no disrespect to Nolan himself), & staying within the mainstream is a common thing that many teenagers do. Sad shame, I'll tell you.