What do you actually LIKE from the Schumacher films?

[Silver Nemesis]

I think the final fight scene in 'Batman '89' is still one of the most inventive, inspired and enjoyable fight scenes of any comic-book movie and the best of all the Batman films including the Nolan ones.

I agree that it's the best fight scene out of the Burton/Schumacher cycle. What it lacks in grace it compensates for in brutality. And it's the only fight scene in the original four films that's driven by any sense of dramatic impetus. I like that fight a lot. But if we're including the Nolan films, I'd probably rank the Batman vs. Bane fights from TDKR above it. Still, it's a very good fight scene.

But the scenes of Batman fighting multiple opponents are pretty tame in Burton's films. They never attack him all at once, just one at a time. And while he's dealing with one enemy, the others just stand around waiting for their turn. By contrast, the goons in Schumacher's films charge him en masse. He's still grappling with one goon when the next one sneaks up behind him. It's far more exciting.

I've also got to give credit to Schumacher for showing the goons actually firing at Batman during fight scenes, rather than walking slowly towards him with their guns raised and then falling down for no reason, even though he didn't touch them, like they do in Nolan's films.

I agree with your point about Batman Forever being arguably closer to the comic-books than the Burton films but it's an argument I read all the time from the detractors and frankly, I don't give a damn.  The Burton films, whatever their fidelity to the source material, are still the most exciting and enjoyable of all the Batman movies IMHO.

I'd say Batman 89 is about equal to Forever in terms of comic fidelity. But your viewpoint is perfectly valid. At the end of the day, a movie needs to stand on its own merits, independent of the source material. And in those terms, I'd argue Batman Returns is the best of the original four films. It's not my favourite, and it's certainly not the most faithful to the comics. But as a standalone piece of filmmaking it is arguably the most accomplished.

[thecolorsblend]

I'd say Batman 89 is about equal to Forever in terms of comic fidelity. But your viewpoint is perfectly valid. At the end of the day, a movie needs to stand on its own merits, independent of the source material. And in those terms, I'd argue Batman Returns is the best of the original four films. It's not my favourite, and it's certainly not the most faithful to the comics. But as a standalone piece of filmmaking it is arguably the most accomplished.

Along the trajectory of your last few posts (I'm quoting this part only because I really like your point here), I think having arguments about which one is closer misses the forest for the trees. Burton created this really dark, creepy, drabby nightmare world in BR. I could picture Batman hanging around a place like that. Irrespective of the film's merits as a film, that aspect screams Batman to me.

Schumacher went another way and gave us a very action/stunt-oriented, kinetic Batman who thinks nothing about fighting five or six armed attackers all at once. Sure, there's nothing like Burton's gothic freak show going on but I could picture Batman swinging off helicopters and fighting that way. That too also screams Batman.

So I guess the issue is it's all a part of who Batman is. More and more, I'm starting to think one isn't radically "closer" to the comics than the other so much as those two filmmakers adapted different aspects (or sensibilities) of the same essential source.

[johnnygobbs]

I agree that it's the best fight scene out of the Burton/Schumacher cycle. What it lacks in grace it compensates for in brutality. And it's the only fight scene in the original four films that's driven by any sense of dramatic impetus. I like that fight a lot. But if we're including the Nolan films, I'd probably rank the Batman vs. Bane fights from TDKR above it. Still, it's a very good fight scene.

On one hand it is a brutal scene, on the other hand it's a rather witty scene, juxtaposing the Joker and Vicki's waltz with Batman getting a beating.  Unlike most modern movie fight scenes it's not rapidly edited and is thus relatively coherent and aesthetically pleasing.  Personally, I can't stand the modern 60-frames-per-second hyper-editing trend.  Also, whilst I appreciate many of the Nolan fight scenes from a narrative POV particularly anything featuring Bane versus Batman, I still think the bell-tower scene in 'Batman '89' is a much more stylish sequence.

I'd say Batman 89 is about equal to Forever in terms of comic fidelity. But your viewpoint is perfectly valid. At the end of the day, a movie needs to stand on its own merits, independent of the source material. And in those terms, I'd argue Batman Returns is the best of the original four films. It's not my favourite, and it's certainly not the most faithful to the comics. But as a standalone piece of filmmaking it is arguably the most accomplished.

I agree.  From a technical standpoint alone 'Batman Returns' strikes me as a more impressive artistic endeavour than any of the other Batman films even though I generally prefer 'Batman '89' and 'TDK' overall particularly as pieces of entertainment and fine examples of string storytelling (I don't care what anyone else says, I maintain that 'Batman '89' is a very well-written movie, especially the first half of the film and particularly in terms of dialogue, and it adheres to both the Aristotelian dramatic unities and Robert McKee's Ten Commandments of script-writing far better than the other Batman movies including the Nolan ones).  For me, 'Batman Returns' is a beautiful movie full of rich sub-text and a masterful use of filmmaking technique in the great tradition of 'Citizen Kane' and 'Metropolis'.

[The Dark Knight]

Along the trajectory of your last few posts (I'm quoting this part only because I really like your point here), I think having arguments about which one is closer misses the forest for the trees. Burton created this really dark, creepy, drabby nightmare world in BR. I could picture Batman hanging around a place like that. Irrespective of the film's merits as a film, that aspect screams Batman to me.

Schumacher went another way and gave us a very action/stunt-oriented, kinetic Batman who thinks nothing about fighting five or six armed attackers all at once. Sure, there's nothing like Burton's gothic freak show going on but I could picture Batman swinging off helicopters and fighting that way. That too also screams Batman.

So I guess the issue is it's all a part of who Batman is. More and more, I'm starting to think one isn't radically "closer" to the comics than the other so much as those two filmmakers adapted different aspects (or sensibilities) of the same essential source.

Good points. Burton is gold and the majority of us have that view. Though I'm a lot more open to viewing other Batman media with an open mind these days. There's more out there than watching two films over and over, no matter how good they may be.

[The Laughing Fish]

I think the final fight scene in 'Batman '89' is still one of the most inventive, inspired and enjoyable fight scenes of any comic-book movie and the best of all the Batman films including the Nolan ones.

I agree that it's the best fight scene out of the Burton/Schumacher cycle. What it lacks in grace it compensates for in brutality. And it's the only fight scene in the original four films that's driven by any sense of dramatic impetus. I like that fight a lot. But if we're including the Nolan films, I'd probably rank the Batman vs. Bane fights from TDKR above it. Still, it's a very good fight scene.

In my opinion, I think that very short scene between Batman and the Joker's swordsman in the alley during the first film is the most impressive fight sequence in all the Batman films. Excellent display of stunts and believable martial arts - it's a shame that it didn't last a little longer.

But the scenes of Batman fighting multiple opponents are pretty tame in Burton's films. They never attack him all at once, just one at a time. And while he's dealing with one enemy, the others just stand around waiting for their turn.

If we're talking multiple opponents fighting Batman one at a time, it's even worse in the Nolan films. You look at where Batman suddenly appears in the penthouse in the second one, and in the third one how he fights together with Catwoman on the rooftop, and especially how he saves Blake, it looks ridiculous how all the goons have Batman surrounded at point blank range yet none of them fire their guns. Worse, Batman moves so slowly too. I thought apart from the carpark and nightclub scenes in the second one, Nolan's ability to shoot fight scenes is subpar to say the least.

Now while I wouldn't call Burton a great action director by any means, what impresses me about the scene where Batman gets up and beats up the Joker's goons in the alley in the '89 film is it was edited in a way where you see Batman fighting each goon once at a time on screen. I thought it was done in a way where it didn't look obvious that the goons took their time. But some of the action did make it seem it too obvious in Returns though; most notably where Batman knocks all the goons out with his remote control Batarang. Too tongue-in-cheek.

Schumacher, to his credit, did have a good idea about how Batman could fight many criminals at once. Perhaps if the criminals weren't portrayed as so over-the-top it would've been given more credit.

[thecolorsblend]

In my opinion, I think that very short scene between Batman and the Joker's swordsman in the alley during the first film is the most impressive fight sequence in all the Batman films. Excellent display of stunts and believable martial arts - it's a shame that it didn't last a little longer.

B89 was part of my introduction to Batman. I was blown away by his speed, reactions and training to be able to go toe-to-toe against a master armed with two swords. If any regular shmuck tried to take on a true swordmaster, he'd be skewered in five seconds. But Batman did it and won... unarmed. That blew my eight year old mind.

And it's funny because "it's too short" was the only criticism I could think of for that scene then and now.

If we're talking multiple opponents fighting Batman one at a time, it's even worse in the Nolan films. You look at where Batman suddenly appears in the penthouse in the second one, and in the third one how he fights together with Catwoman on the rooftop, and especially how he saves Blake, it looks ridiculous how all the goons have Batman surrounded at point blank range yet none of them fire their guns. Worse, Batman moves so slowly too. I thought apart from the carpark and nightclub scenes in the second one, Nolan's ability to shoot fight scenes is subpar to say the least.

This leads into the theory that Nolan cared progressively less with each passing movie. In BB, Ra's says the League of Assassins will teach Bruce how to fight 100 opponents (or some crazy huge number). Later, Falcone watches Batman take on, what, eight of his thugs? Ten? Of course, it's hard to be sure because of the closeups and quick cuts but still. Apart from maybe the assault on Maroni's nightclub in TDK, I don't think Nolan showed anything like that ever again.

Schumacher, to his credit, did have a good idea about how Batman could fight many criminals at once. Perhaps if the criminals weren't portrayed as so over-the-top it would've been given more credit.

Doing a Nolanish, grounded thing probably wouldn't have clicked with audiences back in 1995. He gets no credit for it now but I think Schumacher did a hell of a lot of things right.

[DocLathropBrown]

Heh. I'll be honest about that alley fight in B89... catching a rescreening of BATMAN in Hollywood a few months ago, I was totally shocked (and this being in spite of how much I've already seen the film) how effective Tim is at making the action look more exciting than it is. As many say, Tim isn't exactly the best action director, but the editing, angles and Danny's music combine to make a thrilling sequence. Especially the speed of the fight with the swordsman and the sparks coming off the gauntlets and shin guards for good measure?

Totally thrilling. I was shocked.

[Edd Grayson]

I think BF is better than most people give it credit for. Unfortunately it gets thrown in the same bag with Batman & Robin.

[johnnygobbs]

I think BF is better than most people give it credit for. Unfortunately it gets thrown in the same bag with Batman & Robin.

Like I've said before I was genuinely disappointed by Batman Forever, much more than I was with Batman & Robin because by BF the quality had declined so rapidly following Burton's sublime first two movies.

[Edd Grayson]

I know, but BF is not nearly as bad as B&R to me. At least BF had Val Kilmer and Nicole Kidman and a decent script.