What do you actually LIKE from the Schumacher films?

[DocLathropBrown]

Agreed on all counts, Batm. Love all those aspects. Though I think Dick is supposed to be 17 in the film, in which case he could still be made a ward of Bruce's. Of course, the film actually doesn't say anything about that kind of thing, if you notice. Gordon just indicates that Bruce is 'taking him in,' which probably only means Bruce is letting him stay at Wayne Manor. They don't indicate any legal precedant related to Dick's guardianship.

Also, I have to admit that firstly, The Riddler is my favorite Batman villain. Secondly, I actually find Carrey's take to be my favorite version of him. As you said Batm, the comic origin is so-so/stupid. To me, BF really is Nygma's "The Killing Joke." Carry's backstory in the film is layered enough to counteract his humorousness later on in the film and make him three-dimensional and interesting overall.

The "says it all" moment for Carrey's Nygma is when describing the 3D TV project to Bruce, he says "Why be brutalized by an uncaring world?" Why would be say that if not speaking from experience? It's that line where you realize what he's all about and what drives him. Massive inferiority complex, especially for Wayne, obviously. Probably picked on growing up with uncaring parents. His project is an immersive 3D TV because he always wanted to escape the real world. In that, you understand him, and pity him.

I get the feeling with Carrey's performance that later in the movie, say at the Box launch party at the Ritz Gotham, if Bruce just told him "I was wrong about the project, it's spectacular, Edward. I'm proud of you," Eddie would have probably been flabbergasted and maybe, just maybe, regretful about his actions, giving up his Riddler persona. All Nygma seeks is acceptance, but more specifically, he wants Bruce's acceptance. Bruce's "no" to the project was the domino effect, evidenced by the fact that when Stickley sees him working on it again, Eddie's angry at the image of Wayne, pissed when he says "I'll show you it works!" His love for Wayne turned into hate as soon as Wayne let him down.

And also agreed about Bruce. I prefer the take on Wayne that shows him, perhaps clumsy and aloof, but not a stupid jackass. I never could stand the idea of him disgracing his family's name like Bale did.

[BatmAngelus]

Thanks, Doc.  I wanted to revisit the Schumacher films and view them more objectively, calling out parts that I think they genuinely did well and in some cases, better than any of the other film interpretations so far (Gasp!).  At some point, I'll be revisiting Batman & Robin for the first time since 1997.

Though I think Dick is supposed to be 17 in the film, in which case he could still be made a ward of Bruce's. Of course, the film actually doesn't say anything about that kind of thing, if you notice. Gordon just indicates that Bruce is 'taking him in,' which probably only means Bruce is letting him stay at Wayne Manor. They don't indicate any legal precedant related to Dick's guardianship.

Good points.  I assumed that he was 18 or older, based on O'Donnell's looks and Bruce calling him a "college student" instead of a "high school student."  But as you said, he's not the official legal guardian of Dick Grayson in the Schumacher movies anyway, so it's not a huge issue.  The important idea of Bruce seeing a connection between him and another orphan was still carried through, ward or not.

The "says it all" moment for Carrey's Nygma is when describing the 3D TV project to Bruce, he says "Why be brutalized by an uncaring world?" Why would be say that if not speaking from experience? It's that line where you realize what he's all about and what drives him. Massive inferiority complex, especially for Wayne, obviously. Probably picked on growing up with uncaring parents. His project is an immersive 3D TV because he always wanted to escape the real world. In that, you understand him, and pity him.

I get the feeling with Carrey's performance that later in the movie, say at the Box launch party at the Ritz Gotham, if Bruce just told him "I was wrong about the project, it's spectacular, Edward. I'm proud of you," Eddie would have probably been flabbergasted and maybe, just maybe, regretful about his actions, giving up his Riddler persona. All Nygma seeks is acceptance, but more specifically, he wants Bruce's acceptance. Bruce's "no" to the project was the domino effect, evidenced by the fact that when Stickley sees him working on it again, Eddie's angry at the image of Wayne, pissed when he says "I'll show you it works!" His love for Wayne turned into hate as soon as Wayne let him down.

Agreed.  Sure, Jim Carrey's famous "Ace Ventura" creeps into the character every now and then, but there's a lot more going on to this Riddler than what most fans care to admit.

Not once have I ever read another fan acknowledge that Forever gave Edward an actual reason to wear a costume and hide his identity.  Heck, in one of the original drafts, Edward stalked Bruce & Chase to the circus and knocked out a leprechaun-costumed character at the circus and tried to pose as him to get closer to Bruce, thus explaining the bowler hat and green suit in the Riddler costume.  Janet Batchler told me this was actually one of Schumacher's ideas and while it later got changed into the mannequin wearing the costume in his apartment, I thought the idea of Riddler's costume evolving out of a leprechaun suit was awesome and, like the rest of the film's origin for the character, would've made more sense than the original comic where he just decides to wear green with question marks all over.

Also, I think the Batman Forever Riddler was, in many aspects, ahead of his time.

- The Box may have seemed like a wacky idea in 1995 and yet today, we have 3D television sets.  More than that, there's concerns about social media and corporations having access to our private information.  It might not literally be the "mind zapping" powers that The Box has in the movie, but it struck me when watching the film that the idea of a big businessman like Nygma getting access to our "little white lies" is even more relevant today with the Internet than it was back in '95.

- Forever's Riddler predates his comic book counterpart in finding out that Bruce is Batman.  And he had a much better way of finding it out, in my opinion. 

In Hush, Riddler just gets a random epiphany about it after a dip in the Lazarus Pit. 
In the movie, Edward tricks Bruce into getting his mind read by his invention and, upon reviewing the footage, deduces his big secret. 
Which seems more active and befitting of the genius supervillain?

There's also something ironic that Bruce gets screwed over by an invention that he rejected, especially since I've always thought that Bruce would've talked to Edward more about The Box and made him feel better if he hadn't seen the Bat Signal in the window.  Sure, he still may have rejected the invention eventually, but he wouldn't have done it nearly as quickly if duty hadn't called. 

In a way, Edward became Riddler because Bruce let Batman get into the way of his civilian work, tying into the film's theme of duality.  I can't say the comic version has the same layers.

- Riddler storms Wayne Manor, blows up the Batmobile, and forces Batman to choose between saving his crimefighting ally and his love interest- all things we'd later see in Nolan's films.  Sure, these are things we've seen in the comics and other superhero stories, but in terms of live action Batman films, Schumacher's Riddler did all of these first.

Sadly, all I hear from most Batfans about Forever's Riddler is that Carrey was just being Frank Gorshin and while there's certainly similarities in their approaches, I find there's a lot to appreciate with this version.

And also agreed about Bruce. I prefer the take on Wayne that shows him, perhaps clumsy and aloof, but not a stupid jackass. I never could stand the idea of him disgracing his family's name like Bale did.

Back in 2005, I honestly felt in Begins that the movie was just adapting the version of Bruce in the Year One scene where he's like that with Gordon and that Alfred talking sense into him about the family name would push Bruce into trying to "clean up" his public act in later movies, turning him into the philanthropist Bruce we're used to seeing and giving more character development relating to the Wayne family name. 

There were small shades of philanthropist Bruce in The Dark Knight when he helped Dent and in Rises when they said he was helping to fund the orphanages, but still, in the former, Bruce mostly acted like a jerk to Harvey to his face and in the latter, it was only to bring up that Bruce had become so withdrawn into himself that his negligence lead the orphanages to lose funding.

Ultimately, after the trilogy was over with Bruce's reputation still in the dumps, I realized that the Nolans & Goyer saw the public Bruce Wayne as being the Y1 Bruce throughout his entire career!

I'd also say that it's more believable in Schumacher's films for Wayne Enterprises employees, like Nygma and Stickley, not to ever suspect that Bruce is Batman, as opposed to Nolan's films where Batman drives Wayne Enterprises vehicles all over the place and you start to wonder why only one guy, Coleman Reese, in the course of three movies connected the dots.

[thecolorsblend]

- Not only did Schumacher present Arkham and the GCPD rooftop for the first time, but I think he presented the best film versions yet. They both felt like they leaped from the comic book pages. His Arkham is the twisted, nightmarish haunted house. The GCPD rooftop is large and spacious.

The rooftop angle was something I appreciated at the time. I was really picky back then and wished it'd been a real scene between Batman and Gordon. But, hey, better than nothing.

Still, today, I think Goldenthal's music was the perfect match for the films and a worthy successor to Elfman's, since he was also able to go from the action themes to the darker, more depressing music for the flashbacks to the weird, wonky, bombastic villain motifs. They just don't make scores like this anymore.

Yes.

- Public Bruce Wayne: To me, the Schumacher films share my preferred representation of the public Bruce Wayne: still a playboy, but also a responsible businessman, a philanthropist, and a public figure. As I said in my earlier post way back, this was the first time in the series that we saw Wayne's company. We also see him on magazine covers. He's donated money to the charity circus. He gives full benefits to Stickley's family even though he wasn't on the company's insurance plan. This is very much like the Bruce Wayne that I grew up with in BTAS and the one I like the best.

Yes.

It also gave an explanation why Riddler would wear a costume. In the comics, Edward doesn't have a double life nor reason to wear the green and purple, but here, he has a secret identity just like Bruce, and it makes sense for him to have a disguise since his crimes are funding his business. And while the red wig (originally purple in the first draft) might seem unnecessary at first and part of the film's flamboyant style, I think it helped to make Riddler less recognizable as Edward Nigma. Compare how Carrey looks as Riddler vs. how he looks as Nigma at the party and you can understand why no one in the story would recognize one as the other.

This only occurred to me when I listened to Schumacher's commentary a few days ago. I say this to my shame because I'd like to think it doesn't usually take almost twenty years to pick up on things like this.

So that I'm not completely shamed, a lot of Nigma's behavior reminds me of histrionic personality disorder. From the Wikipedia page with notes:

---
Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is defined by the American Psychiatric Association as a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive emotionality (say, an invention being rejected by one's boss) and attention-seeking (a green spandex outfit and a penchant for leaving cryptic riddles), including an excessive need for approval ("I need an answer now. I think I deserve it.") and inappropriately seductive behavior ("and what a grand pursuit you must be"), usually beginning in early adulthood. These individuals are lively (um, Carrey's entire performance), dramatic (Nigma smack-talking Bruce at the party among zillions of other examples), vivacious (again, Carrey's performance), enthusiastic ("Cleverest! Carbon-based! Lifeform!"), and flirtatious ("shall we dawnnnnce?").
---

How much of this was intentional on Schumacher's part? Ordinarily I'd venture that this could all be a big coincidence... except that this movie is predicated on a lot of psychological principles, and even features a psychiatrist as a love interest. The potential hole in my argument is that women are more often diagnosed with HPD than men but (A) men are so diagnosed and (B) this is fiction.

For extra credit, one could also argue that his eventual transformation (ie, the final scene in Arkham before credits role) suggests he has shifted into some form of disassociative personality disorder ("I am Batman!"). EDIT- And that brings up something else. Obviously Nigma was obsessed with Bruce Wayne to the point of wanting to be Bruce Wayne... so, as per my DPD suggestion, it is interesting that he eventually becomes Batman... in his own mind. After all, why be brutalized by an uncaring world?

- Adapting Robin's origin: Yes, Dick Grayson is much much older when he becomes Robin than he is in the comics, making it odd for Bruce to adopt an adult to stay with him at Wayne Manor.
But looking past that, it's still a pretty faithful take on his origin, with elements of Jason Todd and Tim Drake appropriately sprinkled in, and it's one of the best parts of the movie. It's also, ironically, one of the darker, more grounded elements of this film. Don't believe me? Take the scenes between Dick and Bruce in the Batcave talking about revenge and killing. Then compare them to any scene with the over-the-top villains and Chase Meridian always trying to get "under [Batman's] cape." For a character often blamed for lightening up the mood or requiring too much suspension of disbelief, I don't think he committed either crime here.

The good doctor beat me to this but I was going to suggest that Dick was intended to be about 16. "I figured telling that cop I'd stay here for a while would save me a truckload of social service interviews and charities. No offense but no thanks." That suggests he's under 18, yes?

[The Laughing Fish]

- Kilmer's Batman: While I agree that Kilmer's Bruce Wayne comes off as wooden at times, I don't have any issues with his performance as Batman.  "You need help, Harvey."  "I see without seeing.  To me, darkness is as clear as daylight.  What am I?"  While he adopted the whispery voice/stoic attitude that Keaton did, I think Kilmer pulled off playing the more talky version of the Dark Knight that the movie required.  Out of the WB Batmen, I'd rank Kilmer right below Keaton (my #1).

I know I said I didn't like Kilmer as Batman that much, but I got to admit you make great points, there were some moments that hew as fulfilling the role. My favourite is the first quote you listed, when Kilmer headbutted against the window trying to apprehend the Two-Face on the helicopter, I loved how determined he was to put his body on the line like that.

But I'm still disappointed in his overall performance because he doesn't continue that sort of intensity. I guess the dialogue doesn't help, but my complaint about Kilmer is, like I may have said already, he looked like he didn't want to put more effort in the role. Which is a shame, he could have been really good as Batman if really wanted to.

Great post about everything else by the way.

[Silver Nemesis]

I don't have too much to add to this. I just wanted to say all the points made here are excellent and I agree with every one of them. I think this in-depth analysis of the Riddler's psyche and motivation really deserves its own thread.

One thing I'll mention that I really like about Batman Forever is the scene where Batman saves Robin from the Riddler's death trap. There's a great moment where the shafts of light shining through the walls flare into the camera in rapid succession. Batman and Robin's descent gradually slows and the camera slows with them. Then Robin looks up at Batman and the latter smiles.

Now a lot of people criticise the goofy grin Batman wears when he leaves Chase's apartment, and maybe that's a justifiable gripe. It was an ill-judged moment. But I don't agree with people who say Batman should never grin under any circumstances. It's usually younger, newer fans who make this claim, and yet there are literally hundreds of comics where Batman smiles. He should smile reluctantly and not too often. But he should be able to smile when the situation calls for it. And this is probably the most appropriate instance of that in all the Batman movies. It's a moment of triumph and relief - he's saved his friends, defeated the Riddler and seized control of the situation. And Kilmer's grin looks far more natural here than it does during the scene at Chase's apartment.

It's one of my favourite moments in the movie and I just wanted to highlight it.

But I'm still disappointed in his overall performance because he doesn't continue that sort of intensity. I guess the dialogue doesn't help, but my complaint about Kilmer is, like I may have said already, he looked like he didn't want to put more effort in the role. Which is a shame, he could have been really good as Batman if really wanted to.

I like Kilmer as Batman. The worst I'd say about his performance is that it lacked energy. But I think his more subdued take on the characters fits in with Bruce's story arc over the course of the three films.

By this point Bruce is burnt out. Since he first appeared in Batman 89 he's been driven by compulsion, not conscious choice. This is perhaps the biggest difference between the Burton/Schumacher Batman and the Nolan version. I've heard some people praise Nolan's films for their psychological depth, but in reality there's very little psychology in them. Dent doesn't have a split personality, the Joker acts in accordance with a rational, well-thought out agenda, and Bruce Wayne is able to quit being Batman whenever he wants. The characters in Nolan's trilogy are driven by ideology – by a need to make a moral or philosophical point – rather than by genuine psychosis. I'd argue the only really psychologically complex character in the trilogy is Jonathan Crane. I'm not saying this as a criticism, just an observation.

By contrast, the characters in Batman, Batman Returns and Batman Forever are all driven by psychological compulsion. In Bruce's case, he's suffering from survivor's guilt and blames himself for the death of his parents (a theme that was more prominently explored in the deleted Red Book subplot). He's like a guy who hates his job but has to keep doing it to pay the bills. He had a shot of escaping this compulsion when he found the killer of his parents, but Napier's death didn't ease his pain the way he was hoping it would. He had another shot at breaking his compulsive habits when he met Selina. With her he was willing to trade in one obsession (crime fighting) for another (Selina herself). She was his way out. But again, that all went up in smoke.

So by time we get to Batman Forever he's just mechanically getting on with his job, even though it no longer anaesthetises his pain the way it used to. And when he sees Dick Grayson setting off down the same path it reopens all those old wounds. I really wish they'd included the scene where he finds his father's journal in the Batcave, because that's where he's released from his guilt. From then on Bruce is no longer acting because of a compulsion over which he has no control; he's instead acting of his own free will. In Batman 89 he tells Vicki being Batman is "something I have to do". Then in Batman Forever he tells Nygma: "You see I'm both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be, now, because I choose to be."

It's a good conclusion to his personal journey. At the beginning of the trilogy he's suffering from an illness. By the end of the trilogy he's been cured. He's free to continue being Batman, only now he's in complete control. It's a nice, uplifting note to end the trilogy on.

[BatmAngelus]

The rooftop angle was something I appreciated at the time. I was really picky back then and wished it'd been a real scene between Batman and Gordon. But, hey, better than nothing.

Agreed.  One more thing I'd like to add is that Batman Forever is also the first time we really see that there's the classic partnership between Bruce/Batman and Gordon.  Sure, it's not as prevalent as it'd be in the Nolan films, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's there.

I'll paste in what I said in the comic book influences thread and expand on it:

- For the first time, Bruce Wayne is shown to be friends with Commissioner Gordon, harking back to their first appearances in Detective Comics #27.  Yes, Bruce invited Gordon to his party in B89, but considering that Vicki Vale was also invited without even knowing the man, this hardly counts as evidence that they were friends then.

Here, Gordon calls on Bruce personally for both Stickley's suicide and for helping out with Dick Grayson and is clearly on a first name basis with him, calling him "Bruce" instead of "Mr. Wayne."

In terms of the Batman-Gordon friendship...obviously, Gordon spent most of B89 hunting Batman. 

His role was reduced in Batman Returns and while you could read that he didn't buy that Batman was the culprit behind the Ice Princess kidnapping/murder, I can't say that he and Batman were bonded like their comic counterparts just yet.  Gordon seemed to have some level of trust in him to light the signal for help, but Batman almost seems to brush him off when he brings up the Red Triangle Circus Gang in the beginning. 

In fact, "We'll see" at the beginning of BR is the only line Keaton's Batman ever says to Gordon in both movies.

Now, watch the opening of Batman Forever and, boom, in the first few minutes, we've got the classic Batman and Gordon talking about the case!  This relationship has clearly evolved since the last movie.

Tying into my previous comments about that rooftop, even though Chase gets the longest scene there, we still got to see Pat Hingle there for the first time.  Sure it was him in pajamas, but I'm talking about later on in the movie.  It's classic Gordon, waiting for Batman to respond to the signal.  Gordon shows concern and disappointment when Batman doesn't show up, then surprise and joy when the Batwing flies through it.  Is it a corny moment?  I guess, but just compare it to B89 where Gordon is vocal that he'd arrest Batman.  Gordon's attitude toward Batman has obviously changed and this relationships's finally evolved into the classic Batman-Gordon partnership.

This only occurred to me when I listened to Schumacher's commentary a few days ago. I say this to my shame because I'd like to think it doesn't usually take almost twenty years to pick up on things like this.

Don't feel bad, colors.  I don't think it occurred to me until after my last viewing, either.

How much of this was intentional on Schumacher's part? Ordinarily I'd venture that this could all be a big coincidence... except that this movie is predicated on a lot of psychological principles, and even features a psychiatrist as a love interest. The potential hole in my argument is that women are more often diagnosed with HPD than men but (A) men are so diagnosed and (B) this is fiction.

To add to this, the Batchlers did study academic papers on psychoanalysis, so I don't think it's far-fetched at all to apply psychosis to Riddler.

In addition to the comics, the Batchlers read academic papers that provided psychoanalysis on Batman. This not only helped in understanding the character, but also could have helped provide a basis for writing Dr. Chase Meridian.

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2011/9/3/interview-with-batman-forever-screenwriter-janet-scott-batchler

The good doctor beat me to this but I was going to suggest that Dick was intended to be about 16. "I figured telling that cop I'd stay here for a while would save me a truckload of social service interviews and charities. No offense but no thanks." That suggests he's under 18, yes?

Yep.  Again, I think it's just 'cause O'Donnell was at least 24 at the time (and looks it) that I just assumed he was an adult.  Despite the college student line, the social services one indicates that he is still a minor.

Plus, I can't really criticize the film for casting an older actor as a teen when it's such a common practice in Hollywood.

Now a lot of people criticise the goofy grin Batman wears when he leaves Chase's apartment, and maybe that's a justifiable gripe. It was an ill-judged moment. But I don't agree with people who say Batman should never grin under any circumstances. It's usually younger, newer fans who make this claim, and yet there are literally hundreds of comics where Batman smiles. He should smile reluctantly and not too often. But he should be able to smile when the situation calls for it. And this is probably the most appropriate instance of that in all the Batman movies. It's a moment of triumph and relief - he's saved his friends, defeated the Riddler and seized control of the situation. And Kilmer's grin looks far more natural here than it does during the scene at Chase's apartment.

I actually don't have much of a problem with either smile.  In the first instance, Chase rejects Batman, but she still likes Bruce and it feels like that's what he wanted in the first place.  It's still a win for him.  Plus, it's 90s Nicole Kidman, so I'd be grinning to myself, too.

But yes, if there's a point for Batman to smile, it works best in the second scene.  Plus, to add to my thoughts on Robin, I think we got some really great shots of the Batman and Robin team in the film.  The handshake in the Batcave.  The two caped figures hanging by the bat line.  Hell, I even love the silhouettes of them running against the Bat Signal in the final seconds.  It may seem reminiscent of the 1960s series, but it's not like Batman and Robin running together is exclusive to the show. 

My only wish is that Kilmer was in the main suit, so that Batman and Robin would look more traditional (since Robin adopts the more Nightwing-looking costume in the next movie).  Still, even though I'm not the biggest fan of the sonar suit, the costume change made sense for the story since Riddler blew up the Batcave and the suit's modifications played a brief role at the end.

I suppose that's another case of Forever being ahead of its time: a story explanation for Batman switching costumes and the latter costume having lenses (briefly giving him the comic book look) with sonar capabilities that help Batman out in the third act.  Sound familiar?

[DocLathropBrown]

I figure Bruce's "How about Dick Grayson, college student?" was actually geared toward Dick's impending future, indicating that he may he right about to enter college, because clearly he wasn't currently in college at the time the movie takes place. Maybe the Flying Grayson murder takes place during the summer before what would be his starting college semester? He could be 17 and still graduate High School, depending on when his birthday is in the year. Though he doesn't seem to be in college by the time Batman & Robin comes around. *shakes head*

Another awesome aspect is that the finale takes place on Halloween night. It's Halloween night when Chase shows up to the manor and Riddler/Two-Face show up and capture her. Bruce was knocked out for an hour or so. I'd be willing to bet Batman wrapped up the Claw Island fiasco by about midnight.

I feel that Kilmer's performance is pitch perfect. I feel that his quiet restraint (that seems like a minimalist performance) fits perfectly from the aspect of continuity. Keaton was always very restrained already, and Kilmer's playing the same guy. But also, I like to see it that after he let himself get so out of control in Returns, he's trying very hard to keep himself under wraps, and his identity crisis makes him feel more bottled-up. Hence why in B&R, with the weight of his past and his identity crisis lifted, he's more casual than he's yet been.

A few of my favorite moments from Kilmer in the film are his moments when he lets loose, such as pleading with Two-Face in the helicopter, breaking into Chase's office, and especially blowing up at Dick in the Batcave after the Subway rescue. In those brief moments, Bruce lets his intensity out, only to almost instantly bottle back up. If I were Dick, Bruce's "What the Hell did you think you were doing!?" would make me a little more careful about pissing Bruce off.

I too love the iconography of Batman and Robin running in front of the Bat Signal. Particularly the music in that moment, which is when the Goldenthal theme hits its stride with the dutiful, militaristic drumming. The idea of the shot is just boss, and is completely memorable.

Man, do I love reading this kind of appreciation for Batman Forever. I wish we could forward this stuff to Joel Schumacher.

[Silver Nemesis]

His role was reduced in Batman Returns and while you could read that he didn't buy that Batman was the culprit behind the Ice Princess kidnapping/murder, I can't say that he and Batman were bonded like their comic counterparts just yet.  Gordon seemed to have some level of trust in him to light the signal for help, but Batman almost seems to brush him off when he brings up the Red Triangle Circus Gang in the beginning. 

In fact, "We'll see" at the beginning of BR is the only line Keaton's Batman ever says to Gordon in both movies.

Now, watch the opening of Batman Forever and, boom, in the first few minutes, we've got the classic Batman and Gordon talking about the case!  This relationship has clearly evolved since the last movie.

Gordon was criminally underused in the old films. It's one of my biggest criticisms of the Burton/Schumacher series. He had a decent sized role in the first half of Batman 89 but was then relegated to a background character in the second half of the movie. He's hardly in Batman Returns at all. He has, what, four lines in the entire film?

•   "What are you waiting for? The signal!"
•   "Thanks for saving the day, Batman. I'm afraid the circus gang is back."
•   "This evidence is purely circumstantial. We found this stained with blood in the missing girl's dressing room."
•   "Hold your fire!"

It's pretty sad that his entire role in that movie can be summed up in just four lines. Chip Shreck and the Ice Princess played more important roles in the narrative than Gordon did. At least in Batman Forever they gave him a slightly bigger part. He coordinates the situation outside the bank at the beginning, he introduces Batman to Chase, he investigates Stickley's "suicide", he meets Batman on the roof of police HQ when the Bat-Signal is used, and he cheers Batman on when he's flying to confront the Riddler at the end of the film. A few more scenes wouldn't have hurt, but it's still a step up from the way he was sidelined in Batman Returns.

But yes, if there's a point for Batman to smile, it works best in the second scene.  Plus, to add to my thoughts on Robin, I think we got some really great shots of the Batman and Robin team in the film.  The handshake in the Batcave.  The two caped figures hanging by the bat line.  Hell, I even love the silhouettes of them running against the Bat Signal in the final seconds.  It may seem reminiscent of the 1960s series, but it's not like Batman and Robin running together is exclusive to the show.

I like the Batman and Robin imagery in the movie too. It's ripped straight from the comics. They even managed to increase the height difference between Kilmer and O'Donnell to capture the classic look. O'Donnell's only a couple of inches shorter than Kilmer in real life, but it looks more like four inches difference in the film. And that's the same difference in height between the adult Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne in the comics.

Another awesome aspect is that the finale takes place on Halloween night. It's Halloween night when Chase shows up to the manor and Riddler/Two-Face show up and capture her. Bruce was knocked out for an hour or so. I'd be willing to bet Batman wrapped up the Claw Island fiasco by about midnight.

I'd love it if one day they made a Batman movie with a really strong autumnal Halloween vibe, with the same ambience as movies like Hocus Pocus (1993), Sleepy Hollow (1999) and Trick r Treat (2007). It could have Scarecrow, Solomon Grundy and Man-Bat as the villains and really go all out with the spooky gothic atmosphere.

[BatmAngelus]

I know I said I didn't like Kilmer as Batman that much, but I got to admit you make great points, there were some moments that hew as fulfilling the role. My favourite is the first quote you listed, when Kilmer headbutted against the window trying to apprehend the Two-Face on the helicopter, I loved how determined he was to put his body on the line like that.

But I'm still disappointed in his overall performance because he doesn't continue that sort of intensity. I guess the dialogue doesn't help, but my complaint about Kilmer is, like I may have said already, he looked like he didn't want to put more effort in the role. Which is a shame, he could have been really good as Batman if really wanted to.

I can see what you mean.  Look at Keaton driving the Batmobile in the Burton films and, just from his face, you can see the intensity and the anger. 

Watch Kilmer drive the Batmobile when he's up against Two-Face's men in the car chase and, well, it's not the same.

Still, if we're being fair to Kilmer, he had to play a lot more off his allies than his villains, both in and out of costume. 

I know the topic isn't Keaton vs. Kilmer, but I'll bring up his predecessor just as a comparison: Keaton got a lot of great badass moments when he confronted his enemies. "I'm Batman," "You killed my parents," "Things change," "Shut up, you're going to jail."

Here, it's different.  Yes, "You need help, Harvey.  Give it up." is a great moment. 

But in between these villain battles, this Batman talks more with Gordon than his predecessor. 

He had Dick/Robin to deal with.  Again, more scenes with an ally.

And he had a full-on romance with Chase Meridian, sharing smooches while wearing the cowl.  Just using his predecessor as an example again, Keaton's relationships to Vicki and Catwoman were much different.  And while I'd rather watch Keaton's Batman in the cave with Vicki or facing off with Catwoman, Kilmer's scenes with Kidman required a different approach than what we had seen before.  Here was Batman as a romantic.  The "hairy chested love god" that Grant Morrison dubbed as the one in the Neal Adams era.

Overall, I see what you mean, but I can't really blame Kilmer for coming across as less intense in the Batsuit when the script's Batman was less intense in general.

[BatmAngelus]

I figure Bruce's "How about Dick Grayson, college student?" was actually geared toward Dick's impending future, indicating that he may he right about to enter college, because clearly he wasn't currently in college at the time the movie takes place.

Agreed.  That's a good way to interpret the line.

I want to add an addendum to my previous statement, too:

It may seem reminiscent of the 1960s series, but it's not like Batman and Robin running together is exclusive to the show.

Plus, riffing on the classic 1960s series isn't a bad thing.  Whether it was a deliberate homage or not, it completely fit the ending.  Even though the shot of Batman and Robin on a rooftop was filmed (presumably to be like the B89 ending), I'm glad Schumacher decided to go with his own iconography that was just as appropriate.  I love how Burton's movies end with these rooftop shots with the Bat Signal in the sky while Schumacher's movies end with the silhouettes running against the Bat Signal.

I also want to bring up Two-Face in this thread. 

Even though it's not my preferred take on the character, there are elements we got here that we didn't get in Nolan's take later on.  Don't believe me?:
- The two-toned suits.  Yes, Eckhart's Two-Face had one, too, but technically speaking, it was a normal suit that got burned in the same fire that scarred him.  Less two toned and more, well, more of a ruined suit.  Tommy Lee Jones had the literal tailored two-toned suits from the comics and cartoons.

- The "two" themed crime at the beginning.  "Second Bank of Gotham on the-"  "Second anniversary of the day I captured him."

- Two-Face has his own gang of thugs, too, like in the comics.

- The origin: I'm cool with the origins we saw in B:TAS and The Dark Knight.  But if you want to see the comic book origin adapted, it's not in those (more popular) interpretations.  You can see it right here in Batman Forever:  The courtroom.  Boss Maroni on the stand.  Dent in mid-testimony.  Batman trying to stop it.  Dent getting acid to the face.

- Two-Face vs. Robin.  As noted in the comic book influences article, Two-Face seems to be a recurring villain with the Robins- killing Post-Crisis Jason Todd's dad and endangering Batman & Nightwing to the point that Tim Drake had to don the costume to rescue them- and I guess it's fitting for Batman's former ally to be a nemesis to Batman's partner.

The comic story of Prodigal (published in the months before the film's release) even alluded to Two-Face being responsible for one of Dick's first failures with Bruce and one of the villains whom Dick's truly afraid of (which would be expanded upon in Robin: Year One).  I don't know if the writers did this in light of what Forever was about to do, but it fit what was already established with Dick's successors just as much as the movie reflected the same idea of him being a personal enemy.

- The dual-themed hideout.  Another element from the comics dating back to his first appearance. 

- I wouldn't say Schumacher's Two-Face has a literal dual personality, but there are allusions to his dual nature with him referring to himself as "we" and the "And me.  Aaaand ME!" moment, not to mention the moment where he stops himself from shooting Batman and says he's always been a good friend.  It's not much but it's there.

- I also have to give props to Schumacher for his two closeup shots of the coin going up and flipping in the air.  The first one, especially, at the bank.  Great imagery.

Now, we can argue about which film interpretation of Two-Face was better.  But on a pure "things to appreciate about Forever" level, there's no denying that we got traditional elements in this Two-Face that we didn't get to see when Nolan brought him back. 

You can even argue objectively, with the above list, that Forever's Two-Face had more in common with the comic book character than Dark Knight's Two-Face.  (Jones' "Harvey Two-Face" at least had a much longer career in crime than his successor did.  )

Lastly, to continue the theme of Forever being influential on later movies, I can't be the only one who thought of Batman Forever when watching The Dark Knight and hearing the name "Harvey Two-Face" or seeing Two-Face fall to his death after tossing the coin and the "good side" landing in the end.