Interview with screenwriter Jonathan Gems

[KeatonisBatman]

Hey guys, thought you might enjoy my interview on Batman with Jonathan Gems. I divided our talk up into 3 parts because it was a rather lengthy discussion. (Part two focuses almost entirely on 1989's Batman). Hope you enjoy!

Part 1:
https://brandonkeaton.substack.com/p/cows-aflame-with-jonathan-gems-part

Part 2:
https://brandonkeaton.substack.com/p/holy-flaming-cows-batman-with-jonathan

[Kamdan]

Thank you very much for sharing this interview with us! I listened to the audiobook version of the interview Gems partook about the making of Mars Attacks and hoped we would have gotten some tidbits on his involvement with Batman, but there wasn't much on that subject. Glad you took the initiative to ask him about it.

I did notice a few discrepancies with his recollections. Gems criticized Hamm's script for being too much like Superman. That was the same criticism for Tom Mankiewicz's initial draft of Batman that Burton based his initial treatment on that he wrote with Julie Hickson. Also, Hamm stated that his initial pitch to Burton was to make Bruce Wayne just as insane as The Joker. It may be just a matter of misremembering details, like how Gems is under the impression that Edward Scissorhands was a Paramount movie instead of 20th Century Fox, but it is worth pointing out.

Thank you for being very thorough in asking these questions as we look forward to your conclusion!

[BatmanFurst]

Interesting read. There are a lot of tidbits in here that I didn't know about. This finally answered a question I've had for years which was whose idea was it to cast Keaton? I'd heard versions where it was Tim's idea and other versions where it was the Producer's idea. Also, interesting to know that the studio was against the casting as well.

All this time I thought the casting of Nicholson came from either Michael Uslan or Jon Peter's/Peter Guber. I had no idea that it was Tim that was really pushing for it.

Finally, it's so interesting that many more sets were built for Gotham that weren't used. I'd love to see some pictures of the unused portions of the city. I know the 89 film gets criticized for reusing the same portions of Gotham, but that seems to be a deliberate choice.

[KeatonisBatman]

Thank you very much for sharing this interview with us!

Thank you for being very thorough in asking these questions as we look forward to your conclusion!

You're very welcome. I wanted some more insight in '89 Batman than we've been able to get in the past. Some of the more interesting points I found talking with him... it seems that Kim Basinger & Jon Peters (or possibly Nicholson!) were probably the ones responsible for Alfred "letting Vicki into the cave." (My thoughts on that were that Alfred didn't let her in, that she had figured it out, but I digress).

Also it was surprising to hear that Tom Cruise had the part of Edward Scissorhands in the bag... then turned his back on it when Tim Burton said Edward was gay. 

I'm working on the third and final part of the interview. I should've done it at as a podcast so I wouldn't have to type all this out! 

[Kamdan]

Some of the more interesting points I found talking with him... it seems that Kim Basinger & Jon Peters (or possibly Nicholson!) were probably the ones responsible for Alfred "letting Vicki into the cave." (My thoughts on that were that Alfred didn't let her in, that she had figured it out, but I digress).

The way I understood it with my research on the subject was that the scene was written to take place in Wayne Manor's study. I believe they went over schedule when it came to location shooting and they simply decided to pick it up in the Batcave.

Also it was surprising to hear that Tom Cruise had the part of Edward Scissorhands in the bag... then turned his back on it when Tim Burton said Edward was gay. 

That definitely seems the lot more frank than the usual excuse which was that Cruise simply asked too many questions about the character that didn't pertain to the movie, including how he goes to the bathroom and how he wanted him to be more assertive. Sometimes actors and directors don't want want to just say no to a project so they come up with difficult excuses why they don't want to do it so that the other person dismisses them.

[BatmanFurst]

Thank you very much for sharing this interview with us!

Thank you for being very thorough in asking these questions as we look forward to your conclusion!

You're very welcome. I wanted some more insight in '89 Batman than we've been able to get in the past. Some of the more interesting points I found talking with him... it seems that Kim Basinger & Jon Peters (or possibly Nicholson!) were probably the ones responsible for Alfred "letting Vicki into the cave." (My thoughts on that were that Alfred didn't let her in, that she had figured it out, but I digress).

Also it was surprising to hear that Tom Cruise had the part of Edward Scissorhands in the bag... then turned his back on it when Tim Burton said Edward was gay. 

I'm working on the third and final part of the interview. I should've done it at as a podcast so I wouldn't have to type all this out! 

I'd read another version as well. In the Michael Keaton interview that Rolling Stone did in 89 they mentioned that it was Keaton's idea to have that scene in the Batcave. It was originally going to take place somewhere in Wayne Manor.

I'm with you though. I caught on to her putting the pieces together once she discovers his parents were murdered. I'm not sure why this has since been turned into a big deal. I'm also glad that they cut a scene of Bruce telling her he's Batman. I think Vicki figuring that out on her own is much more in line with the character.

I'm curious to know how Robin was eventually cut out of the film if he was initially a studio mandate.

[The Joker]

Thank you for the interview, and posting this.

Very fascinating read! With the whole Tim Burton/Jon Peters deal, my takeaway is that it makes Tim come across as enduring to some extent, as apparently Tim had to deal with Jon Peters who clearly wanted to throw his weight around during the production. With Tim being sympathetic towards random crew, whom clearly at that time were emotional about having just been fired, and taking it upon himself to rehire them on the spot.

As a director, and it's fair to say newcomer at that, with more than enough on his plate to deal with, having to deal with Peters' backlashes on staff must have been quietly frustrating.

Peters is definitely a character. As he came across as cartoonishly boastful in the "Superman Lives" documentary, and I remember the portrayal of Jon Peters in Paul Thomas Anderson's "Licorice Pizza" wasn't exactly flattering either.

BTW, the bit about the dinner party with Jack pretty much getting all the attention from the ladies was amusing. 

[KeatonisBatman]

I'm with you though. I caught on to her putting the pieces together once she discovers his parents were murdered. I'm not sure why this has since been turned into a big deal. I think Vicki figuring that out on her own is much more in line with the character.

As far back as I can remember, I never thought Alfred just let her in, I always thought she figured it out on her own. I guess the opponents of that point of view would then argue, okay but why does Bruce chastise Alfred for "letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave" in Batman Returns? 

With Robin I think they must've decided it was just one too many characters. And Burton I think may have implied or agreed to use Robin in the next picture.

[DocLathropBrown]

I'm with you though. I caught on to her putting the pieces together once she discovers his parents were murdered. I'm not sure why this has since been turned into a big deal. I think Vicki figuring that out on her own is much more in line with the character.

As far back as I can remember, I never thought Alfred just let her in, I always thought she figured it out on her own. I guess the opponents of that point of view would then argue, okay but why does Bruce chastise Alfred for "letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave" in Batman Returns? 

With Robin I think they must've decided it was just one too many characters. And Burton I think may have implied or agreed to use Robin in the next picture.

Well, it's one thing for Vale to come over insisting that Wayne is Batman... it's another to let her into his secret headquarters and confirm it. Obviously Alfred was trying to tempt Bruce with Vale as opposed to the cowl, so I don't blame Alfred for making a desperate play there.

And in the novelization (and earlier script drafts) their talk does happen in the Wayne Manor study (presumably where Bruce was sitting while looking through Napier's file).

[Silver Nemesis]

This is another terrific interview, KeatonisBatman. I had no idea about Gems' involvement in Batman '89 until now. It's fascinating to hear another perspective on the film's development, especially since many of his statements are at odds with the established narrative we've grown accustomed to hearing. I thoroughly enjoy this sort of candid long-form interview.

I only recently learnt of Charles McKeown's involvement in the Batman '89 writing process, so it was good to hear Gems clarify where both his and McKeown's contributions fit into the timeline. Burton was clearly a fan of Terry Gilliam's Brazil (1985). The 1989 Gotham is heavily indebted to Brazil's production design, and Burton hired Gilliam's DP Roger Pratt to serve as his cinematographer. In addition to playing the character Harvey Lime, McKeown also co-wrote the Oscar-nominated screenplay for Brazil before doing uncredited work on the Batman '89 script. I expect many of the film's funniest lines came from his pen.

The more I hear about the evolution of the Batman '89 script, the more I realise how important the other writers were. Hamm gets most of the credit, and indeed he did compose the basic structure of the first two acts, but it sounds like many of the best elements came from other writers. How many people altogether worked on the Batman '89 screenplay? Sam Hamm, Jonathan Gems, Charles McKeown, Warren Skaaren and even Jack Nicholson by the sound of it.

You're very welcome. I wanted some more insight in '89 Batman than we've been able to get in the past. Some of the more interesting points I found talking with him... it seems that Kim Basinger & Jon Peters (or possibly Nicholson!) were probably the ones responsible for Alfred "letting Vicki into the cave." (My thoughts on that were that Alfred didn't let her in, that she had figured it out, but I digress).

I'm with you though. I caught on to her putting the pieces together once she discovers his parents were murdered. I'm not sure why this has since been turned into a big deal. I'm also glad that they cut a scene of Bruce telling her he's Batman. I think Vicki figuring that out on her own is much more in line with the character.

There was a YouTube video of Burton being interviewed in which he confirmed this theory, but unfortunately the interview in question has been taken down. Burton stated that Vicki already knew Bruce was Batman before she went to Wayne Manor, having figured it out during the scene where Knox shows her the newspaper detailing the Wayne murders.