Box Office Thread

[Silver Nemesis]

Kevin Smith just said Michael Uslans son told him that Michael Uslan said if Flash did as well as Batman, he'd do a Batman Beyond movie with keaton.

And now we know.

Uslan has denied Smiths' claim.

Smith responded with the following Tweet:

EDIT – Here's an additional statement from Uslan in which he again denies the rumour of a Batman Beyond movie and says he hasn't even discussed the possibility with anyone at WB for over twenty years.

This contradicts reports that Christina Hodson was working on a script for a BB film. Or is Uslan simply out of the loop with what's happening at WB? If so, this supports what I said earlier in the thread: that if a BB movie does happen it won't be Uslan's call.

[DocLathropBrown]

To my knowledge, Hodson's Beyond script was very early on retrofitted into the first draft of the Batgirl script. And I think the proof's in the pudding--Bruce being a mentor figure makes that evident. I don't think her BB script got very far before its ideas became Batgirl.

The failure of The Flash is pretty clear to me, and it is a variety of factors--DC as a brand being poison is one of them. Outside of Momoa's Aquaman movie (not necessarily the character, I think) and Gadot as WW, the general audience hasn't enjoyed any of it. The MCU effect was bolstering interest in superheroes in-general for a long while there, so Man of Steel and Batman v Superman got big boosts off of that, though the general audience didn't really care for them at all. MoS wasn't part of a "cursed" brand yet, there was some interest in Superman, and Nolan's name helped too. Despite the money BvS made, it barely turned a profit, in one sense owing to an inflated budget. Just like The Amazing Spider-Man 2, where the film made decent money, but was a failure due to its expense.

But in a post-pandemic world, where many people seem more hesitant to go out as much as before (and with massive inflation)? People have become much more picky. They're not going to go out to the movies unless the word of mouth is ridiculous, or there's plenty of existing good will.

The DCEU had no good will left, and each successive movie has been making less and less. Don't forget that Doctor Strange's second movie made more money than The Batman at the box office. That carries certain factors on its own, but I cannot doubt that the overall attitude toward DC by the general audience was at least a part of it.

Regular folks have easily heard that Miller was in some trouble, but let's face it, the biggest and juiciest details were not widely reported. It had little effect on the box office. Rather, nobody cares about DC as a brand and especially nobody cared or noticed Miller's version of the character. Ezra themselves are not a big name that would have attracted people on its own, and sadly I am indeed now convinced that Keaton's name doesn't carry enough weight as Batman, either. Although I'm sure without Keaton, the box office would have been even lower, as he was the only thing that garnered any authentic (non WB fabricated) buzz.

WB also screwed the pooch by showing the thing to half of the damn population of the planet and pushing the narrative that it was so good. I believe ViewerAnon when he reports how well it tested, as VA has very rarely been wrong (and cops to it when he is), so WB's test audiences may have skewed too geeky to be a real barometer, or earlier cuts were just better. Also, wonky special effects don't count against a film when it's testing, as viewers are informed that it's a work in progress.

WB set the expectation so high, that when it wasn't even close to being that good, the film became a laughing stock. Had there been much more subdued buzz, people might have been pleasantly surprised and the word of mouth might have been better.

But the honeymoon period for superhero movies seem to be over. Audiences don't hate them, but the "rising tide lifts all ships" effect of the MCU has ended--the general audience isn't even as in love with Marvel as they were (I think Endgame feeling like such a complete ending allowed a lot of people to feel like they were able to jump off), so superhero flicks can't be mediocre anymore, nor can they (I think) afford to be as heady or as serious as The Batman--you've got to try to hit all four quadrants. Have a reasonable runtime and budget and have a sense of fun without being a flat-out comedy.

The billion dollar days are over--for a while there, superhero movies and blockbusters were tripping over that threshold, but I don't think they can anymore. Only the ones the general audience really like are going to make it there, now. Just like the old days.

[Silver Nemesis]

Is Paul busy or am I being ignored?

Paul, would you consider posting this as a poll on Batman-Online Facebook page?


Would you re-watch "The Flash" on a prescribed day to tell WB how much we want a Michael Keaton "Batman Beyond" movie? If the sales shot up on one day, it would send a message.

Yes

No

Sorry, I missed this post earlier. Ral seldom posts on the message boards these days, so he probably hasn't read your suggestion. Your best bet for getting in touch would be to send him a private message or contact him through the Batman-Online Facebook page.

[GBglide]

Thanks! 

[The Dark Knight]

Regular folks have easily heard that Miller was in some trouble, but let's face it, the biggest and juiciest details were not widely reported. It had little effect on the box office. Rather, nobody cares about DC as a brand and especially nobody cared or noticed Miller's version of the character.

A very educated post and I enjoyed reading it. It's an accumulation of problems but I do think Miller had an impact, even if that can't be scientifically determined just how big or small. The drop off even from Black Adam is sharper than expected and the Miller saga had the potential to supercharges the usual box office misery.

A month or so ago at work I casually slipped in about Keaton coming back in The Flash and the guy I was talking to liked Michael but nonetheless flat out refused to see it because of Miller. I get people feeling that way.

The director even said Ezra would be coming back if a hypothetical sequel was to be made, and they laughed at the talk about removing Ezra from the film and parting ways. Not the best comments to make to the general populace (made up of people who hate what they heard about Ezra) as the film was just about to premiere.

[Travesty]

There's a bunch of factors at play here, some of which have been mentioned, but I see it as:

-Disgust for Ezra.
-James Gunn coming out about a new universe, which The Flash isn't attached to, so people aren't invested with the final DC movies coming out in the old universe.
-Snyder fans who are mad about how the Snydervese is ending(a fractured fanbase)
-The bad CGI.
-The movie not being anything special. It's not bad, but it's not great.
-Comic Book movie fatigue.


There's just a bunch of stuff working against this movie, so it's really no surprise that it's not doing well. If the movie had been as great as they claimed(which it isn't even close), and the CGI wasn't embarrassingly bad, maybe the other things could've been looked over, but as it stands, there's just too much working against it. It is what it is....

[The Laughing Fish]

The post-mortem on this should be a thing of beauty. I don't think there are enough disgruntled Snyderstans boycotting the movie to do this kind of damage. Which is what some people are claiming. But I think every single Snyder true believer could've bought a ticket for TF and it wouldn't have made a big difference to the bottom line.

Maybe. Maybe not. What I've learned about the MCU is building your core audience matters, as well as maintaining the cast of actors you've established. MCU was able to mitigate the loss of Edward Norton by keeping the rest of the Avengers cast intact, despite the many changes of directors over the years. The familiarity of these actors with the general audience played a major part in the MCU's dominance over the years.

WB didn't want to work with Snyder anymore, okay, the least they could do is ensure to keep the JL cast intact. Had they done this, I bet you DC's shared universe would've been fine. It may have been different, but the casual audiences still would've been on board, because whether some people here like it or not, there are still people who do like Cavill and Affleck in these roles, even if they weren't necessarily fans of Snyder's direction.

Instead, WB alienated their actors behind the scenes of the Josstice L disaster - on top of the disgraceful deception surrounding Zack's departure - and cherry-picked who they wanted to keep due to ego. Ever since then, they offered no sensible or better alternative to what Snyder had planned for the shared universe. Replacing Superman and Supergirl and Affleck getting replaced by an aging Keaton (who would've had to make way for Batgirl as his successor at some point) was never going to cut it. And no, Gunn's lousy attempt at a soft reboot isn't the answer either. Really, if you weren't a fan of the Snyderverse, why would you want to invest your time and money on something that's tarnished by PR scandals and nothing is certain?

It's starting to look like WBD's best play right now would be washing their hands of DC and superheroes entirely and developing other franchises and tentpoles to carry them into the future. Because I can't kill enough brain cells to convince myself that Aquaman 2 and Blue Beetle will somehow do much better than Black Adam or TF.

If you ask me, DC needs to be sold. But I can't ever see that happening, unless WBD files for bankruptcy.

[The Laughing Fish]

There's a bunch of factors at play here, some of which have been mentioned, but I see it as:

-Disgust for Ezra.

Out of all the crimes that Miller got arrested for and the shocking allegations he was accused of, I'll never forget his disgraceful reaction on Instagram last year, when he posted that photo of the Flash running with a message saying "You can't touch me, I'm in another universe". You're reported missing and being accused of heinous sh*t, and THAT's how you respond?!

That alone merited his dismissal from the role, and the industry altogether. But hey, if Gunn and Zaslav likes him, what do I know?

-Snyder fans who are mad about how the Snydervese is ending(a fractured fanbase)

Let's be honest though, the Snyderverse was already finished since Josstice L, aside from a brief revival in ZSJL. When the last regime still refused to continue that story, it ended again. The frustration is every WB regime refuses to give that story a conclusion, despite nearly all of DC's films have been diminishing returns.

-The movie not being anything special. It's not bad, but it's not great.

Aside from several leaked scenes I saw online, I haven't seen the movie, and I have no desire to ever see the whole thing. And yes, that is a sad thing to say since I love Keaton's Batman, but that sums up the gross mismanagement by the studio. That being said, it's easy to see why it's not doing well, judging by the tasteless scenes like the whole "baby shower" rescue scene (and Flash using a microwave to save a baby, WTF?!) and cameos of Superman actors who have been dead for decades (I blame Disney for starting this trend when they recreated Peter Cushing's likeness to bring Tarkin back for Rogue One).

What I can't understand is why the hell did Zaslav and Gunn hype this movie so much as one of the best ever? Zaslav was very bold to claim this was the best superhero film he has ever seen. Not even Kevin Feige would make such claims on the stuff he produces. There is a difference between hyping up your product, and setting up for huge expectations it was never going to meet.

Zaslav and Gunn are really that stupid, aren't they?

[eledoremassis02]

I think what they need to do is stick with the DC Black stuff. The shared universe thing never worked for DC and they spent way too much time trying to please the internet (wich is it's never going to win)

People are willing to wait another 4 years for a spider-verse movie because its good (I never seen it because the fist one really didnt do much for me) but I wish we'd go back to that.

MCU really messed up with what made Super-hero films the event films they were. I dont need 5+ films and TV shows a year I need a good comic book film come out once in a while. MCU perfected what made the shumacher films bad (particularty Batman and Robin)

[The Dark Knight]

I think what they need to do is stick with the DC Black stuff. The shared universe thing never worked for DC and they spent way too much time trying to please the internet (wich is it's never going to win)

Outside of The Batman 2, Joker, Mission Impossible and John Wick (all of which made money) I'm not invested in major film productions. Especially here on out. I still get a lot of enjoyment from older films like Jurassic Park (1993) and the Indiana Jones trilogy. I can easily escape into those worlds and not come out. If newer content isn't doing it for me the back catalogue of existing content always will.