DC vs Marvel

[The Joker]

FLASHBACK 1997:

Comic creators, via Wizard magazine, comment about DC vs Marvel match ups. Some of these battles had taken place just a year prior (1996) for the crossover, where other contests suggested here never transpired.

[thecolorsblend]

I've always had trouble seeing Superman defeat Thor in battle. Like, Superman could probably beat Thor in an arm-wrestling match or something. But once Thor uses Mjolnir, well, that's clearly a magic-based weapon. So, Superman goes down. I hate to say it. But I can't see how else it ends.

Superman vs. Hulk is a lot easier. When you can punch the other guy 1,000 times in one second, the fight just won't last very long. Easy win for Superman.

Batman vs. Daredevil can be a little trickier. Homecourt would be a disadvantage for either character. If the fight takes place in the Marvel universe, Batman wins either from sheer fighting skill, tactics, weapons or whatever else. As for Daredevil, my conspiracy theory has always been that the minute he sets foot in the DC universe, he INSTANTLY gets selected as a Green Lantern. Or F-Sharp Bell, since he's blind. Once Daredevil is armed with a Green Lantern ring, I just don't see how Batman wins that fight.

This stuff is kind of fun to think about, ngl.

[Silver Nemesis]

The Batman versus Daredevil matchup is one I've thought about in some depth. The argument that Batman would instantly figure out Daredevil is blind is ridiculous. Yes, it happened in Daredevil/Batman: Eye for an Eye (1997).

But I still don't buy it. Matt has mastered the art of concealing his blindness and can perfectly mimic the body language of a sighted person when in costume. None of his enemies has ever been able to deduce that he's blind based on pure observation. Even Doctor Doom, who is more intelligent than Bruce Wayne, and who once actually swapped bodies with Daredevil – he literally occupied Matt's body for a time – didn't figure out that he was blind. But Batman can do it in a matter of seconds? This is a lazy plot device to give Batman an advantage over Daredevil, and it hinges on depriving Matt of one of his abilities (namely his ability to conceal his blindness) while exaggerating one of Bruce's (elevating his powers of deduction to a level that surpasses any character in the entire Marvel Universe).

Saying that, I've reached my own conclusion about who would win between Batman and Daredevil. To explain the outcome, I'll first compare the two characters in several different categories and see which trumps the other.

SKILL

Batman has mastered 127 different martial arts. Anyone who's ever trained in martial arts knows that it takes decades to truly master just one discipline, but somehow Bruce mastered 127 of them in the span of about ten to fifteen years. This is absurd, and was clearly written by someone with no real knowledge of martial arts, but the fact remains that Bruce Wayne has mastered 127 different martial arts. So there.

By contrast, Matt Murdock's fighting skills are far more realistic. He's skilled in about a dozen different styles, but he hasn't necessarily mastered all of them. He's mastered maybe two or three of those disciplines, and the rest he is simply very skilled at. He combines all of these skills into a unique hybrid style of which he is a master.

Both characters are considered top-tier fighters in their respective universes. Batman has defeated Ra's al Ghul, Lady Shiva, Bane, Red Hood, and can hold his own against characters like Bronze Tiger and Deathstroke. Bruce has also used his intellect to take down various super-powered opponents, including Superman. Given enough prep time, he can defeat almost any human adversary.

Daredevil has defeated black suit Spider-Man, the Punisher, Wolverine, Kingpin, Absorbing Man, Mister Hyde, Black Panther and Elektra, and he's fought Iron Fist to a stalemate on numerous occasions. He's also managed to stand his ground against Captain America and the Hulk, though he couldn't defeat either of them. But skill wise, Batman has the edge on him thanks to those 127 different fighting styles he's mastered.

Winner: Batman

STRENGTH

Daredevil has peak-level physical strength. He once wielded a 400lb barbell in combat as though it weighed nothing at all. In another comic he flipped a limousine over with several adult passengers inside. He also once knocked out Mister Hyde with one punch. His strength is basically superhuman.

But Batman's is more superhuman. Bruce Wayne can casually bench press over 1,000lbs.

He once sliced a motorcycle in half with a kick.

Nuff said.

Winner: Batman

AGILITY

Bruce is extremely agile, though he does tend to rely on his cape and grapple gun when it comes to aerial manoeuvrability. Even without his gear, he's a skilled acrobat.

But Matt's on another level. Daredevil's enhanced senses grant him superhuman balance and push his agility to a level where he can keep up with web-swinging Spider-Man. This one goes to Matt.

Winner: Daredevil

DURABILITY

I could list examples of the most extreme beatings these guys have taken, but I think it's simpler to just call this one a draw. They've both endured insane levels of physical and mental punishment over the years, and both have survived numerous things that should rightly have killed them. Both have also displayed the ability to rapidly heal their injuries through meditation.

Winner: tie

REFLEXES

Stan Lee once said that Daredevil's radar sense was superior to Spider-Man's spidey-sense. In Black Cat/Spider-Man: The Evil That Men Do (2006) Daredevil was able to react to Nightcrawler teleporting before he actually arrived, simply by detecting subtle molecular changes in the atmosphere.

Matt can swat bullets out of the air with his billy club and is one of the few human beings capable of dodging Bullseye's attacks.

If Bullseye can't tag him with a projectile, then I don't see what chance Batman has of tagging him with a batarang. Bruce's reflexes are extremely well honed too, but I think Matt has the edge on him here.

Winner: Daredevil

INTELLECT

Matt is extremely intelligent and well educated. He possesses arguably the greatest legal mind in the Marvel universe and is a skilled leader and tactician. He's a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard, has a master's degrees in law, plus knowledge of mechanical engineering equivalent to another master's degree. He's an expert detective and interrogator, as well as a connoisseur of fine art. He also has a vast working knowledge of human anatomy and chemistry, and he's fluent in English, Spanish, French, Latin and Japanese. His heightened senses enable him to identify hidden threats that would be invisible to ordinary people (e.g. detecting explosives, guns or chemical weapons by their scent). He's also a master of nerve strikes and his sensory abilities allow him to detect weak spots in an opponent's anatomy/armour that would be otherwise impossible to identify.

Bruce Wayne is a genius polymath and an expert in practically ever scientific field. He's the world's greatest detective, a master strategist, an expert in chemistry, engineering and physics. He's one of the world's most successful businessmen, a capable field medic, can pilot practically any vehicle imaginable, has a comprehensive knowledge of human psychology and is unsurpassed when it comes to criminal profiling. He's multilingual and has an IQ of 192. He's also a patron of the arts, is extremely well read and possesses a vast knowledge of history.

Matt's highly intelligent, but Bruce's intellect is superhuman.

Winner: Batman

EQUIPMENT

Ok, this one's obvious. As Krusty the Clown once said to the Adam West Batman, "Ugh, what don't you have in that belt?" But let's look at this more closely. What does Batman have in his arsenal that could harm Daredevil?

Matt's radar sense would render all of Bruce's stealth equipment useless. Smoke bombs won't work on Daredevil, and neither will using an EMP to flood the room in darkness. Matt's suit is insulated against fire and electricity, so tasers won't harm him either. His billy club includes a retractable blade capable of severing steel cables, so it's unlikely Batman could snare him with a net or grappling line.

What about sonic batarangs? Those might have worked in the past, but in recent years Daredevil's displayed an increased resistance to sonic attacks. He now has dampeners in his cowl specifically to protect him against sonic weapons, and he's conditioned his brain to reflexively shut out auditory attacks that might previously have incapacitated him. He's withstood sonic attacks from Klaw and close range blasts from Wakandan sonic guns without serious injury, so I doubt a sonic batarang would cause him much trouble.

He could dodge or deflect regular batarangs, and he'd sense any explosive or chemical weapons before they could be deployed. Knockout gas? That could work, although Matt could probably smell it before it was released. Daredevil can hold his breath for over four minutes, and he's occasionally been shown to carry a gas mask as part of his regular equipment. So even poison gas isn't guaranteed.

Daredevil carries smoke pellets in his billy club, though he rarely uses them. These would be useless against Batman. Batman also carries cutting equipment, which would prevent Matt from trapping him with his grappling cable. Batman's armour would protect him from serious injury if Matt threw his billy club at him or tried slashing him with his billy club blade. Daredevil's armour is not as robust as Batman's, but Matt could probably detect any weaknesses in Bruce's armour and exploit them. Batman's cowl features sonar equipment than can simulate Daredevil's auditory powers, which would prevent Matt from using darkness to his advantage.

At the end of the day, Batman's equipment is clearly superior.

Winner: Batman

Ultimately I don't think equipment would be a big factor in this fight. It would come down to a contest of skill, strength, agility and intelligence. I'd give Matt the edge in terms of agility, reflexes and situational awareness, but Bruce is stronger, more skilled, more intelligent and better equipped.

The outcome of the battle? Batman wins. At least that's my assessment. But it would be a great fight.

Of course if we're talking about live action versions of Batman and Daredevil, then that's a whole other conversation.

As for Daredevil, my conspiracy theory has always been that the minute he sets foot in the DC universe, he INSTANTLY gets selected as a Green Lantern. Or F-Sharp Bell, since he's blind. Once Daredevil is armed with a Green Lantern ring, I just don't see how Batman wins that fight.

Something somewhat similar to this scenario happened during the War of the Realms storyline, where Daredevil replaced Heimdall and acquired Asgardian powers.

Cosmic Asgardian Daredevil would stomp Batman, as would Shadowland Daredevil. But regular Daredevil? Probably not.

[thecolorsblend]

Cap vs. Batman has always intrigued me.

First off, no matter who wins, this is likely to be the fight of Batman's entire life.

To SN's point about Batman mastering 127 martial arts, I've always had a hard time buying that. For the reasons SN mentions. So, I mentally amend that superlative by saying Batman studied those arts for a few months to a few years perhaps. He learned their moves, forms, postures, etc. But MASTERY? No sir. Because that could take a lifetime in some cases. As a former student, I don't see how anybody would need more than a year, tops, to figure out taekwondo. The moves are very limited. Same with aikido, whose moves are more based on principle than anything.

But jujutsu, no way, you'll spend the rest of your life getting your head around that. Even if you're Batman, sorry.

I'm no expert on Cap. But I always got the idea that when push comes to shove, he favors John Wayne-style fisticuffs. Boxing, more or less. I'm sure he's picked up a few tricks over the years from various Avengers. It seems probable to me that Iron Fist would've taught Cap a thing or two. I'd be surprised if that never happened, honestly. But in the heat of the moment, Rogers will most probably defaults to boxing. He's a kid from 1930's Brooklyn, after all.

So, how does a showdown between Cap and Batman play out? Well, I think it's only fair and right for each character to have access to their usual bag of tricks. Cap has his shield while Batman has his utility belt and the other features of the batsuit.

And those are advantages Bruce will probably need. Because Cap is probably the most dangerous opponent he'll ever face.

Cap's abilities basically put him at (or beyond?) Venom-powered Bane's level. He can run at a sustained speed of 30mph, can lift 1,100 lbs. AS A WARM UP, can survive punishment that would kill a regular human without breaking his stride (meaning, he can take Batman's most powerful shot to the jaw and keep on trucking), has virtually unbreakable agility and stamina while also possessing an accelerated mental acuity allowing him to master any weapon in a matter of seconds.

Thus, Batman can throw batarangs and smoke bombs at Cap but I doubt Rogers would slow down (and even that's assuming he couldn't dodge or block those offensive measures, which I'm not taking for granted).

So, in terms of sheer physical power, I don't think Bruce can go toe to toe with Cap for very long.

Now, it's easy to think that Batman's a tactician as much as anything else. So, surely he'd try to gain a strategic advantage, right? Well, he would, yeah. But I don't know how much good that would do. Cap isn't just a veteran of WW2. He's also been hardened by innumerable battles alongside the Avengers. If the war didn't teach Cap the value of effective tactics against a dangerous enemy, his subsequent adventures with his team definitely would've.

So, I think Cap would see through Batman's efforts to fight from a distance and do everything in his (considerable) power to close the distance. And I think he'd be successful with that.

Once Captain America lands two or three punches on Batman, I think Batman's first instinct would be to realize that he's in way over his head and try to retreat. But I don't see how or why Cap would let him do that. I think he'd want to press his advantage and end the fight as soon as he can. Because who knows what else the guy in the cape might be capable of? If there's way to shut the fight down early, Cap would probably favor that approach.

So, in the end, the BEST Batman can hope for is a stalemate. But I think Cap winning is simply the more likely outcome.

The ONE way I could see Batman winning is he's able to somehow cut off Cap's oxygen supply. Cap may have nigh superhuman limitations. But the need for oxygen is a vulnerability every human has, no matter how strong or fast he might be. So, if Batman can somehow trap Rogers in a low (or no) oxygen environment long enough to render him unconscious, that could work.

But I'm operating on the assumption that the characters are fighting "blind" (i.e., zero intel on each other) on neutral turf that favors neither fighter... which, oddly enough, tends to favor Cap.

Are those fighting words for you, SN?

[Silver Nemesis]

To SN's point about Batman mastering 127 martial arts, I've always had a hard time buying that. For the reasons SN mentions. So, I mentally amend that superlative by saying Batman studied those arts for a few months to a few years perhaps. He learned their moves, forms, postures, etc. But MASTERY? No sir. Because that could take a lifetime in some cases. As a former student, I don't see how anybody would need more than a year, tops, to figure out taekwondo. The moves are very limited. Same with aikido, whose moves are more based on principle than anything.

But jujutsu, no way, you'll spend the rest of your life getting your head around that. Even if you're Batman, sorry.

If they said that he'd mastered one martial art – let's say Ninjustu – and that he had trained in two dozen others – not to the extent of mastery, but enough to develop a basic functional proficiency – then that would be far more plausible.

I remember reading an interview with Dave Lea where he said he'd studied certain martial arts for a few months, just long enough to learn the techniques he wanted, before moving on to other styles. Some martial arts he studied for years, others for just a few weeks. It is possible to pick up the basics of some simpler martial arts in a comparatively short span. But mastering 127 of them? That would require multiple lifetimes. Ra's al Ghul might have done it during the many centuries he's lived, but there's no way Bruce could have done it during the 10-15 years he was travelling.

I'm no expert on Cap. But I always got the idea that when push comes to shove, he favors John Wayne-style fisticuffs. Boxing, more or less. I'm sure he's picked up a few tricks over the years from various Avengers. It seems probable to me that Iron Fist would've taught Cap a thing or two. I'd be surprised if that never happened, honestly. But in the heat of the moment, Rogers will most probably defaults to boxing. He's a kid from 1930's Brooklyn, after all.

I'm no expert on Captain America either, but I once read somewhere online that he's meant to know about fifty different martial arts. In the following comic panel, he claims to have studied every fighting style known to man back in WWII.

Even if he had studied "every form of hand-to-hand combat known to man" that would still only be every form known to western man in the 1940s, which would be a fraction of the world's total martial arts. Based on what we see in the comics, I'd guess the WWII Cap's fighting style was a mix of boxing, brawling and 1940s US Army CQC training. I recently read an interesting article about Defendu, the hybrid CQC system taught to British and American special forces commandoes during WWII. Apparently it was a fusion of street fighting, boxing, Jujitsu, Judo, Savate, Chinese martial arts, wrestling and street fighting, with a particular emphasis on "ungentlemanly" techniques. I can imagine Steve training in that. His modern counterpart would have trained in even more styles, since he has to regularly battle foes like Batroc and Taskmaster. Even then, I don't know if he's as skilled as Batman.

If Cap knows 50 martial arts and Batman knows 127, then Bruce still has the edge.

Cap's abilities basically put him at (or beyond?) Venom-powered Bane's level. He can run at a sustained speed of 30mph,

The Adam West Batman is also capable of running 30 miles per hour, although perhaps not for a sustained period. In the third season episode 'I'll Be a Mummy's Uncle' (s03e23) he and Robin both sprint a mile in under two minutes. They do this immediately after having already broken a world record by running a mile in under three minutes, and they're not even out of breath.

BATMAN: A little winded, old chum?
ROBIN: It takes more than a two-minute mile to make me winded, Batman.

The Earth-66 Batman would stand a very good chance of beating the 616 Captain America.

Thus, Batman can throw batarangs and smoke bombs at Cap but I doubt Rogers would slow down (and even that's assuming he couldn't dodge or block those offensive measures, which I'm not taking for granted).

So, in terms of sheer physical power, I don't think Bruce can go toe to toe with Cap for very long.

Now, it's easy to think that Batman's a tactician as much as anything else. So, surely he'd try to gain a strategic advantage, right? Well, he would, yeah. But I don't know how much good that would do. Cap isn't just a veteran of WW2. He's also been hardened by innumerable battles alongside the Avengers. If the war didn't teach Cap the value of effective tactics against a dangerous enemy, his subsequent adventures with his team definitely would've.

So, I think Cap would see through Batman's efforts to fight from a distance and do everything in his (considerable) power to close the distance. And I think he'd be successful with that.

Once Captain America lands two or three punches on Batman, I think Batman's first instinct would be to realize that he's in way over his head and try to retreat. But I don't see how or why Cap would let him do that. I think he'd want to press his advantage and end the fight as soon as he can. Because who knows what else the guy in the cape might be capable of? If there's way to shut the fight down early, Cap would probably favor that approach.

So, in the end, the BEST Batman can hope for is a stalemate. But I think Cap winning is simply the more likely outcome.

The ONE way I could see Batman winning is he's able to somehow cut off Cap's oxygen supply. Cap may have nigh superhuman limitations. But the need for oxygen is a vulnerability every human has, no matter how strong or fast he might be. So, if Batman can somehow trap Rogers in a low (or no) oxygen environment long enough to render him unconscious, that could work.

But I'm operating on the assumption that the characters fighting each "blind" (i.e., zero intel on each other) on neutral turf that favors neither side... which, oddly enough, tends to favor Cap.

I agree with your take on the Batman versus Captain America question. A battle between Cap and Batman, fought under the conditions of a random encounter, would be similar to the bouts between Cap and Daredevil. Bruce could challenge him for a while, using skill, stealth and weaponry to match his opponent's superior strength and stamina, but in the end exhaustion would affect Bruce quicker than it would Steve. You can see this starting to happen in the original 1996 DC Versus Marvel comic. Bruce is out of breath, Steve isn't.

Had that battle been allowed to play out to its natural conclusion, Steve should have won. But since fans voted for Batman to win, they had an environmental factor (the sudden flood of sewage water) hand Bruce the victory.

Speaking of the DC Versus Marvel comic, here's further evidence that Batman is stronger than Daredevil. Straight from the lips of Bullseye himself.

Looking back on that comic now, some of the pairings were grossly mismatched. Take Catwoman versus Elektra. Selina isn't even in the same league as Elektra when it comes to fighting skill. A fairer match would have been Catwoman versus Black Cat, while a more worthy opponent for Elektra would have been someone like Talia al Ghul or Lady Shiva. This matchup got me thinking how a mixed doubles battle might have played out between team black (Batman and Catwoman) versus team red (Daredevil and Elektra).

I'd be inclined to bet on team red here. Team black has the MVP in Batman, but also the weakest link in Catwoman. I reckon Bruce could beat Matt or Elektra individually, but in both cases it would be an extremely tough fight. I doubt he could take them both on simultaneously and come out on top. Elektra would eliminate Selina early on, and then it would basically be a matter of two against one. Daredevil and Elektra would wear Batman down and either overwhelm him or force him to retreat.

Team black would probably win the rematch though, since by then Batman would have had time to prepare a trap for Matt and Elektra. But under the conditions of a random encounter, with no prep time, I give it to team red. I'd be interested in hearing an alternative take on this matchup if anyone thinks team black would win.

[thecolorsblend]

Yeah, I don't see Batman overcoming Daredevil AND Elektra. Which is what it would ultimately come down to if he's paired up with Catwoman.

Now, Batman and Nightwing vs. Daredevil and Elektra introduces some different dynamics. For ease of comparison, I always figured Elektra and Lady Shiva were basically interchangeable with each other in terms of skillset. Maybe Lady Shiva is slightly better but still comparable. Which, incidentally, says a lot about Daredevil's skills.

So, a showdown between those pairs could go a number of different ways. Nightwing is not on Elektra's level. But he'd put up a much better fight than Catwoman would. It's honestly hard to say. I'm leaning toward Batman/Nightwing with this battle. But I'm open to other opinions.

Another interesting match-up could be Firestorm (Raymond/Stein) vs. the Silver Surfer. Although for that one, it's probably best for you to find an empty galaxy somewhere for them to face off with each other.

Also, I've always been sort of curious about how Poison Ivy would stack up against the Man-Thing.

[The Joker]

Way back in the early 2000's, I remember thinking about What If Galactus vs. Imperiex?

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised DC hasn't reincorporated Imperiex into the hundreds of desperate Crisis/soft reboots/ect/ect/ect events that come around every 6 months or so. He's basically a obscure villain at this point.

Killer Croc vs. The Lizard would be interesting to see.

Mirror Master vs. The Spot just for the sheer amusement.