TNBA criticism

[The Laughing Fish]

This video is very critical of TNBA, otherwise known as the third season of BTAS.

I must admit, when I first watched these TNBA episodes, I did have some doubts if they really belonged in the same timeline as BTAS. This video did speak my mind in some respects, with the changes in some character's attitudes and retconning character conclusions. When you watched Second Chance and Mudslide in BTAS, you could be forgiven for thinking these episodes were the definitive endings for Two-Face and Clayface.

While it's true that TNBA isn't as good as BTAS as a whole, some of the best episodes like Old Wounds, Holiday Knights and Mad Love are still right up there among the best in the DCAU Batman run. The argument to suggest they should've been been told earlier in TNBA is valid, but I'm just glad they were made.

[thecolorsblend]

I think people go way too hard on TNBA. No, it's not as good as the first season. But then, neither is the second season.

The way I see it, BTAS has an almost universally adored first season and then two subsequent seasons that you have to justify enjoying. The creators of the show were mortals just like everyone else and a lot of the creative successes of the first season are due to the strength of the material combined with the creators being young, hungry and nearing the peak of their creative abilities.

TNBA needed to continue the brand on a new network in a safe way. It wasn't expected to do anything more than that. And from the sounds of things, there wasn't time to do much more than that since the crew was doing double duties with STAS.

Several BTAS are burned in effigy for their wonky problems, off model character designs, etc. But that's overall less of a problem (per capita) with TNBA due to the simpler designs.

I'm not saying TNBA is perfect. But it seems to get called out all the time for problems more often than other episodes with the exact same problems in greater abundance.

[The Laughing Fish]

It's funny how in some aspects TNBA got a little more darker than BTAS. Batman's personality gets even darker as his obsession drives Dick Grayson away. In BTAS, he's driven, but he could show moments of lightheartedness at times, even quip. TNBA makes explicit references that the villains are capable of committing homicide, as opposed to the censorship-heavy BTAS.

Yet, as you once said, despite all of this creative freedom, BTAS is more beloved to this day.

[The Joker]

Here's a 1997 Wizard Magazine interview with Bruce Timm and Paul Dini discussing TNBA. Some interesting comments made here for sure.

[thecolorsblend]

As I said earlier in this thread, I think what hurts TNBA is the perception that it's mostly made up of clunker episodes. My theory is that in percentages, TNBA is about as strong as BTAS.

But I didn't much feel like rewatching the entire run of TNBA to prove my point. Still, I rewatched several episodes and organized my list into tiers. At least half of the TNBA episodes are worth checking out. I only found two that I think completely suck.

Even if there are only twelve good/excellent episodes, that's still a very strong track record. But I suspect the Worth Watching section would be much longer if I rewatched the entire series.

The Absolutely Essential episodes live up to their name. Even if you despise the rest of TNBA, I just don't see an argument for pretending like these episodes don't (or shouldn't) exist.

-- Absolutely Essential

• Holiday Knights
• Sins Of The Father
• Over The Edge
• Old Wounds
• Mad Love

-- Worth Watching

• Double Talk
• You Scratch My Back
• Never Fear
• Joker's Millions
• Torch Song
• The Ultimate Thrill
• Legends Of The Dark Knight

-- Crap
Critters: Did people forget that Steve Gerber never really liked superheroes? Is that what happened here?
Judgment Day: This one's enough to make me question if the two part origin story from BTAS wasn't a complete fluke. That is how bad the entire point of Two-Face as a character is missed here.

[The Joker]

"Judgement Day" is kinda interesting to me due to it being Two-Face's final DCAU appearance. In addition, with there being insufficient info about his final fate during the DCAU "Batman Beyond" time period, it can be surmised that Harvey became mentally incapacitated to a degree where he was essentially paralyzed due to the "Judge" personality being introduced to his already fragile psyche.

Paul Dini's screenplay for "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" does provide a deleted scene where Bruce searches the ruins of Arkham Asylum and visibly has chills passing by Harvey's cell. Implying whatever his fate was, wasn't remotely favorable.

[The Laughing Fish]

Here's a 1997 Wizard Magazine interview with Bruce Timm and Paul Dini discussing TNBA. Some interesting comments made here for sure.

Nice find, Joker. I got the feeling that Timm was obliged to do more stories involving Batgirl based on Kenner's request, and seemed to express some distaste for DC Comics sidelining her at the time.

You can definitely tell that Batman's darken state of mind contrasting TNBA's lighter tone was done on purpose, as highlighted in the Old Wounds episode. It still remains my favourite episode of that particular era, and not many shows like this are eager to show the main character having such a flaw.

Another reason why I believe TNBA isn't looked on with the same level of love as BTAS is it lacks that noir atmosphere the previous show had. BTAS had a lot of clever animation i.e. use of silhouettes and editing that stood out from other cartoons, but TNBA was more straightforward.

"Judgement Day" is kinda interesting to me due to it being Two-Face's final DCAU appearance. In addition, with there being insufficient info about his final fate during the DCAU "Batman Beyond" time period, it can be surmised that Harvey became mentally incapacitated to a degree where he was essentially paralyzed due to the "Judge" personality being introduced to his already fragile psyche.

Paul Dini's screenplay for "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" does provide a deleted scene where Bruce searches the ruins of Arkham Asylum and visibly has chills passing by Harvey's cell. Implying whatever his fate was, wasn't remotely favorable.

I never knew about the script for BB: ROTJ had hinted Dent's demise. I suppose they cut it out because the film was already dark enough as it was.

I don't mind the Judgement Day episode, but as I said earlier, the Second Chance episode felt more like a fitting conclusion for Two-Face. The final shot of Harvey getting committed to Arkham Asylum - with the scarred side of his face hidden in darkness to highlight the man he was once acknowledging Bruce always looking out for him - is a truly bittersweet moment. The sentimental part of me prefers that as the ending than seeing Two-Face regress further into mental decline.

[The Joker]

Another reason why I believe TNBA isn't looked on with the same level of love as BTAS is it lacks that noir atmosphere the previous show had. BTAS had a lot of clever animation i.e. use of silhouettes and editing that stood out from other cartoons, but TNBA was more straightforward.

Yeah, there are numerous reasons that factor into BTAS as opposed to TNBA, but what you highlighted, TLF, are major factors I think.

I never knew about the script for BB: ROTJ had hinted Dent's demise. I suppose they cut it out because the film was already dark enough as it was.

I don't mind the Judgement Day episode, but as I said earlier, the Second Chance episode felt more like a fitting conclusion for Two-Face. The final shot of Harvey getting committed to Arkham Asylum - with the scarred side of his face hidden in darkness to highlight the man he was once acknowledging Bruce always looking out for him - is a truly bittersweet moment. The sentimental part of me prefers that as the ending than seeing Two-Face regress further into mental decline.

Oh, I know what you mean about Two-Face, and I agree. The same goes for me with Mr. Freeze and "Batman Sub Zero". I don't really mind Freeze's appearances in TNBA/Batman Beyond, but "Sub Zero" would have been a pretty good and grand send off to a villain that the DCAU really had a hand in elevating. Especially in perception.

[The Laughing Fish]

Oh, I know what you mean about Two-Face, and I agree. The same goes for me with Mr. Freeze and "Batman Sub Zero". I don't really mind Freeze's appearances in TNBA/Batman Beyond, but "Sub Zero" would have been a pretty good and grand send off to a villain that the DCAU really had a hand in elevating. Especially in perception.

SubZero is another good example, I agree. As a matter of fact, I remember Boyd Kirkland, who wrote and directed the movie, was quoted expressing his disappointment in how Mr. Freeze in the TNBA/BB timeline was used for shock value compared to the tragic and sympathetic character in BTAS and SubZero. I suppose many feel the same about Two-Face in BTAS and TNBA.

The same could be said about Clayface. He had a tragic ending in the episode Mudslide, but returned as a thief in TNBA's Holiday Knights, and the episode Growing Pains, which he creates a young girl and reabsorbs her back into his body much to Tim Drake's dismay. Rather unsettling, if you think about it.