The Batman SPOILER Thread!

[The Dark Knight]

That's what I've got for now.

Oh, something else.

One thing that made me nervous about the trailers was an inexperienced Batman palling around with GCPD. Privately, I thought to myself "There's no way it would be that easy. SOMEBODY wouldn't appreciate a civilian/vigilante having the run of a crime scene. And they'd make no secret of that."

Well, the movie tackled that directly and repeatedly. Batman's inclusion was controversial to a lot of cops at first. But by the end of the movie, it's obvious that they have started accepting him. And that works for me. In fact, of everything in the movie, Batman's evolving relationship with GCPD is one of the more successful elements, ultimately. So, obviously my initial reluctance was misplaced.

If you think the movie is good now, wait until you see it a couple more times. It's one of the best Batman stories ever made. Jeffrey Wright is a great Gordon and the dynamic he has with Batman is heartwarming. He says Batman is the only one he trusts. Towards the end when Batman is taking on the Riddler goons, Gordon wants to get up there and assist. They're like best friends, and you really feel that Gordon can see beyond Batman's darkness to appreciate his upstanding morals. If he doesn't kill he won't be forced to turn him in. But he knows it wouldn't come to that. Very B66/BTAS in vibe. Nailing Batman's presence amongst Police at crime scenes opens up his world considerably.

[Silver Nemesis]

Returning to something I wrote in the 'no spoilers' thread, Dano's Riddler reminded me a lot of the Gemini Killer from William Peter Blatty's The Exorcist III (1990). This is hardly surprising, since both characters are based on the real life Zodiac Killer. But the scene where the similarities really hit home for me was the Arkham conversation between Batman and Nashton. I imagine most people will probably compare this to the interrogation scene in The Dark Knight, but it's also strongly reminiscent of the discussions between the Gemini (Brad Dourif) and Inspector Kinderman (George C. Scott) in Blatty's film. Both scenes take place in a psychiatric hospital, and in both movies the psychopathic serial killer boasts about his crimes and taunts the detective until he provokes a physical reaction from him. Both feature a moment where the killer suddenly adopts a falsetto to sing in Latin. The Gemini sings 'Gloria' while Riddler sings 'Ave Maria'. The dark murky cinematography and use of low-key lighting are also similar.

Of course I also saw the influence of David Fincher's Seven (1995) and Zodiac (2007), as well as James Wan's Saw (2004), but I thought it was worth adding The Exorcist III to the list of possible cinematic influences.

[BatmanFurst]

Returning to something I wrote in the 'no spoilers' thread, Dano's Riddler reminded me a lot of the Gemini Killer from William Peter Blatty's The Exorcist III (1990). This is hardly surprising, since both characters are based on the real life Zodiac Killer. But the scene where the similarities really hit home for me was the Arkham conversation between Batman and Nashton. I imagine most people will probably compare this to the interrogation scene in The Dark Knight, but it's also strongly reminiscent of the discussions between the Gemini (Brad Dourif) and Inspector Kinderman (George C. Scott) in Blatty's film. Both scenes take place in a psychiatric hospital, and in both movies the psychopathic serial killer boasts about his crimes and taunts the detective until he provokes a physical reaction from him. Both feature a moment where the killer suddenly adopts a falsetto to sing in Latin. The Gemini sings 'Gloria' while Riddler sings 'Ave Maria'. The dark murky cinematography and use of low-key lighting are also similar.

Of course I also saw the influence of David Fincher's Seven (1995) and Zodiac (2007), as well as James Wan's Saw (2004), but I thought it was worth adding The Exorcist III to the list of possible cinematic influences.

I love the Gemini scene in that movie. Definitely a highlight of the film for me. Brad Douriff's performance in that scene is just incredible and he leaves a big impression even though he's only in one scene. However, with The Batman the thing that keeps me from loving it in the same way is Dano's performance. His screaming and singing felt comical and over the top in a way that didn't fit the film. Looking back on Douriff's performance he screams and gets manic in that scene as well, but to me it fits. Also, Douriff knows how to convey pent up rage and frustration in a way that feels threatening. I'm starting to think Dano was just miscast.

[The Dark Knight]

Dano's performance felt consistent with what these types of people are like. They don't have any real friends, lack social skills, detest society and only value likeminded individuals. The way someone like Edward expresses frustration is going to be different to the likes of Bane. He's the nerd who sat alone and was more likely to be a school shooter. Riddler's world view of Batman came crashing down during the interrogation, changing from imagined ally to instant foe. Nashton performed in the orphanage choir, and belting that tune out is his equivalent of "talk to the hand". I still saw the elitist snob in Dano's smirk, which is a trait I associate the most with the Riddler.

While not a spoiler, I was flipping through some comics and this internal monologue from Detective Comics 613 seems to captures the mood of Battinson for the majority of the film: "The night is for me. The Batman doesn't need other people - doesn't need company, or laughter, or words. The Batman needs no kiss on the cheek. For him, the night is enough. The wind in the neon city - the sting of the chill air - the purity of one man's lonely mission. Vicki? Vicki who?"

[thecolorsblend]

Dano's performance felt consistent with what these types of people are like. They don't have any real friends, lack social skills, detest society and only value likeminded individuals. The way someone like Edward expresses frustration is going to be different to the likes of Bane. He's the nerd who sat alone and was more likely to be a school shooter. Riddler's world view of Batman came crashing down during the interrogation, changing from imagined ally to instant foe. Nashton performed in the orphanage choir, and belting that tune out is his equivalent of "talk to the hand". I still saw the elitist snob in Dano's smirk, which is a trait I associate the most with the Riddler.

While not a spoiler, I was flipping through some comics and this internal monologue from Detective Comics 613 seems to captures the mood of Battinson for the majority of the film: "The night is for me. The Batman doesn't need other people - doesn't need company, or laughter, or words. The Batman needs no kiss on the cheek. For him, the night is enough. The wind in the neon city - the sting of the chill air - the purity of one man's lonely mission. Vicki? Vicki who?"

Pretty much. Dano's Riddler is an unhinged, unbalanced psychopath. And he sees a fellow traveler in Batman.

So, um, what does that say about Batman?

This aspect of the movie plays great for me because of that stuff.

[The Dark Knight]

Something we haven't seen in the films outside B66 is an established rogues gallery. The Riddler locked in his cell was a man in despair. His plan succeeded, but it was now over. Batman wasn't on his side, which was the biggest knife of all. But the man who will become the Joker comforts him. He provides hope and hints there's more to come. These freaks have different methods but can all be in it together. This would benefit Dano's Riddler most of all given his lack of a friends circle. He needs new idols now Batman let him down.

Something of a big deal is usually made about Batman operating in daylight hours. The Batman has a number of moments during early morning/twilight, particularly the ending with Batman helping airlift people to safety. As someone who is uneasy about that element I barely raised my eyebrows. It felt both natural and like a fair compromise. It's not pitch black outside but nor is it midday. Night is still his preference - such as how Bruce waits until much later to visit Gil Colson as Batman. I'm finding the way Reeves handles his universe opens up the storytelling potential.

[thecolorsblend]

Just finished reading the other Batman site's review of TB. In brief, Jett is all in with Pattinson and TB. That was news to me. Which should tell you something about how little I've been following him for the past bunch of years.

Still, I wonder if the under-reported story here is Reeves bridging the gap between Burton fandom and Nolan fandom. At least so far, Reeves appears to be bringing the fans together in a way I never thought was possible before.

It seems like almost nobody in the core audience is turned off by what Reeves did with the movie. Everyone seems excited about the movie and the future.

We live in interesting times.

[Gotham Knight]

I saw the movie. Well...

I loved it. More than I thought I would.

You see, for the longest time I've wanted to have a live action Batman story where he transitions from being the lone (crazy?) figure of the night to being a more inspirational version of himself. I despise the talking heads in the fandom that insist those two versions of Batman are incompatible. Didn't see it coming, but that ends up being the entire point of the movie. Batman saving himself from becoming Rorschach, who he closely resembles in the beginning. Batman is jacked up. His narration sounds cool, then Reeves deliberately shows the words again in his journal, and it looks like the ravings of a lunatic. 'I'm vengeance' actually pays off, and Batman understands he cannot simply punish the guilty, he must protect the innocent. It is a preventive measure, for the Riddler once was innocent and he is still of the people.

This also gives you many opportunities for other villains, who can arise as grassroots heroes. Golden age Harvey Kent whose crimes were dictated by the coin, and when the good side came up, the money went back to the people, back into the hands of the people who needed it. The paranoiac rejection of our institutions in favor of outrageous personalities who promise violent upheaval makes heroes out of the malcontent and malformed. 

This one really hit the mark. I understand why The Dark Knight stans are sweating. The Batman in many ways feels very reminiscent of those movies, even a retread. The catch is that it's better. That's the sum up. The Batman is The Dark Knight Trilogy, but, ya know, better at it.

[thecolorsblend]

Not every take on the movie is positive. Midnight's Edge is agreeing with and amplifying Ryan Kinel from RK Outpost. And, to be fair, I do think there's a germ of truth to all this. I choose to see the positive in TB. But I also think this is a fair take on the movie.

[Silver Nemesis]

I wonder if Commissioner Savage's death scene was an allusion to the Room 101 scene in George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. In the book O'Brien straps Winston into a chair with a mask connected to a cage of hungry rats and threatens to open the partition and allow the rats to eat his face. The Riddler does something similar to Savage in the movie, only he follows through on the threat with lethal results.

I love the Gemini scene in that movie. Definitely a highlight of the film for me. Brad Douriff's performance in that scene is just incredible and he leaves a big impression even though he's only in one scene. However, with The Batman the thing that keeps me from loving it in the same way is Dano's performance. His screaming and singing felt comical and over the top in a way that didn't fit the film. Looking back on Douriff's performance he screams and gets manic in that scene as well, but to me it fits. Also, Douriff knows how to convey pent up rage and frustration in a way that feels threatening. I'm starting to think Dano was just miscast.

The Exorcist III is horribly underrated, though I've noticed the Rotten Tomatoes score has been slowly creeping up towards 'fresh' in recent years as appreciation for it has grown. Dourif's performance in that film is superb. If you haven't already seen it, you should check out the Legion Cut. Originally Dourif was meant to play Karras as well as the Gemini Killer, but then at the studio's behest Blatty reshot his Karras scenes with Jason Miller reprising the part. But you can see the original version, with Dourif in both roles, in the Director's Cut. I believe Dourif attended a screening of that cut when it was released on Blu-ray a few years back. I'd love to see the Q&A from that event.

Of course he's been in plenty of other memorable films over the years: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, The Eyes of Laura Mars, Wise Blood, Dune, Blue Velvet, Child's Play and The Lord of the Rings trilogy to name but a few. It was rumoured that Tim Burton approached him to play a villain in Batman III, but Dourif himself debunked this in an interview in 2018.

Your Wikipedia page says you almost played the Scarecrow in Batman Forever, back when Tim Burton was gonna make that movie. Is that true?
Y'know, I've heard that! One time I saw Tim Burton on an airplane and he was looking at me very interestedly. But I never spoke to him about it, and I think I wouldn't have been big enough a star for anyone to cast me in that role. He might've been interested, but I doubt the powers that be would've let him do it.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/04/10/and-now-an-intimate-conversation-with-brad-dourif

It's a shame, because he would've been perfect as the Burtonverse Riddler. But yeah, The Exorcist III is a good film IMHO. It's one of the best psychological horror films of the nineties and the only good entry in the Exorcist movie series after the original (unless you count The Ninth Configuration, which is awesome). And since this is a Batman site, I'd be remiss for not mentioning the creepy Joker statue.

You see, for the longest time I've wanted to have a live action Batman story where he transitions from being the lone (crazy?) figure of the night to being a more inspirational version of himself. I despise the talking heads in the fandom that insist those two versions of Batman are incompatible. Didn't see it coming, but that ends up being the entire point of the movie. Batman saving himself from becoming Rorschach, who he closely resembles in the beginning. Batman is jacked up. His narration sounds cool, then Reeves deliberately shows the words again in his journal, and it looks like the ravings of a lunatic. 'I'm vengeance' actually pays off, and Batman understands he cannot simply punish the guilty, he must protect the innocent. It is a preventive measure, for the Riddler once was innocent and he is still of the people.

Good analysis. If Batman Forever was a movie about Bruce Wayne figuring out why he needs Batman, then The Batman is a film about the title character learning why he needs Bruce Wayne.

As others have pointed out, Battinson is initially focused on punishing wrongdoers to the extent that he's incapable of comforting victims. We see this after his first fight scene, where he's unable to reassure the frightened man on the platform. He clearly empathises with the mayor's son after he loses his father, but can't offer him any emotional reassurance. It's only after he learns of his parents' failure – that their philanthropic promises were not fulfilled, and that their work is not yet complete – and after he sees how futile the Riddler's preoccupation with vengeance and punishing wrongdoers is, that Batman finally realises he needs to offer Gotham something more. Then he's able to show the good people of Gotham that he's on their side and that they've no need to fear him. This is where Bruce Wayne, the philanthropic side of Batman, finally begins to emerge.

Batman Begins showed us Bruce Wayne's journey to becoming Batman. Reeves' film shows us Batman's journey to becoming Bruce Wayne. I thought it was a clever way of approaching the material from a different angle.