Old transcript of Bruce Timm and co commenting on BTAS episodes

[thecolorsblend]

The list of Batman's bedpost notches almost certainly includes:

* Catwoman
* Talia
* Andrea (in BTAS continuity)
* Lady Shiva (fight me, they totally did)
* Poison Ivy (she totally roofied him in TLH, yeah they did it)
* Wonder Woman, probably
* Black Canary
* Zatanna

I've even wondered about Post-Crisis Power Girl, actually. The only female characters I'm convinced Batman never hit it and quit it are Lois Lane, Big Barda and probably Hawkgirl. I just can't picture any of them hopping into the sack with Batman. But the rest, totally, yeah.

[The Dark Knight]

It's edgy to talk about Batman bumping uglies but I actually don't think he's putting serious importance on it. I see Batman being much like Affleck in BvS, or even B89. Doing the deed from but time to time, but still waking up tired, depressed and hollow - rather than feeling content or at peace. He's focused on his crusade so much that nearly everything in his life is sidelined, from his business dealing to friendships. Batman tied down in a domesticated type setting is a type of love and happiness that doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the character. When you're depressed or fixated on a problem it's the centre of your universe and it's hard to feel any other emotions. But it's there if he wants it.

[thecolorsblend]

It's edgy to talk about Batman bumping uglies but I actually don't think he's putting serious importance on it. I see Batman being much like Affleck in BvS, or even B89. Doing the deed from but time to time, but still waking up tired, depressed and hollow - rather than feeling content or at peace. He's focused on his crusade so much that nearly everything in his life is sidelined, from his business dealing to friendships. Batman tied down in a domesticated type setting is a type of love and happiness that doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the character. When you're depressed or fixated on a problem it's the centre of your universe and it's hard to feel any other emotions. But it's there if he wants it.

Grant Morrison theorized that at the very bare minimum, Bruce Wayne would have standing, ah, arrangements with maybe three or four different friends of a similar status to him. Basically, plates in modern parlance.

His theory comes from the fact that Bruce probably strives to be as healthy as possible. And y'know has various health benefits to it. I don't think it would be a lustful thing for him so much as an item he checks off his to-do list.

I don't rly agree with Morrison there. But I think I understand his logic.

[The Laughing Fish]

The list of Batman's bedpost notches almost certainly includes:

* Catwoman
* Talia
* Andrea (in BTAS continuity)
* Lady Shiva (fight me, they totally did)
* Poison Ivy (she totally roofied him in TLH, yeah they did it)
* Wonder Woman, probably
* Black Canary
* Zatanna

You forgot Barbara Gordon (both in the DCAU and The Killing Joke animated adaptation).

So Bruce Timm reckons Batman hooking up with Barbara is meant to be a mistake and is intended to make you feel gross. It definitely felt weird when I saw that phone call scene in Mystery of the Batwoman, that's for sure.

If Wonder Woman was meant be 18 years old in JL, as Dwayne McDuffie suggests, then that definitely makes Bruce Wayne creepy. Even more so than hooking up with Barbara.

[The Laughing Fish]

The late Boyd Kirkland was interviewed in 2005 and looked back at the show.

https://dcanimated.com/WF/batman/btas/backstage/interviews/kirkland.php

These are the comments that caught my attention.

Given how you left Mr. Freeze at the end of the SubZero direct to video feature, how did you feel about the characters return in The New Batman Adventures?

Well, it's certainly not a direction I would have gone. The Mr. Freeze in Heart of Ice and SubZero was a wonderfully tragic, sympathetic character. The walking head with two bimbo sidekicks in Cold Comfort was played just for shock value.

I agree with him that Mr. Freeze in TNBA cheapens what seemed to be a rather fitting conclusion for the character in SubZero, where he was finally at peace once Nora was finally cured and seeks refuge in the Arctic, away from civilisation. To see him go from that to relapsing as an android beyond reason or humanity was disappointing.

​But then again, SubZero wasn't originally planned as the final chapter of Mr. Freeze's journey. Bruce Timm wanted to adapt the short comic story White Christmas from Batman Adventures Holiday Special #1 for an episode, but he had to drop it when Boyd Kirkland and Glen Murakami wrote SubZero. The reason is because the comic took place when Nora had died, whereas she is still alive and comatose in Kirkland's movie. As a matter of fact, Timm went so far to state he thought Nora had already died by the end of Heart of Ice, and never would've kept her alive if he had a choice.

All this goes to show is the showrunners and creators didn't always see eye-to-eye with some ideas. Kirkland did mention some of the ideas he gave to the writers for some episodes weren't used, so he must've looked at SubZero as an opportunity of doing a Batman story his way. According to his writing credits on IMDB, SubZero was the only Batman story he ever wrote.

If anybody is interested in reading Timm's thoughts about Nora Fries, check out the link below and turn to page 14:
https://issuu.com/twomorrows/docs/backissue99preview

What did you have planned for The Catwoman feature, especially considering it looked to be based from a movie everyone hated? Is the project now dead?

I can only assume it's dead, although I've heard nothing official. About a year before the Catwoman movie came out, Warner Animation asked me if I would be interested in developing a direct-to-video Catwoman movie to be released in the wake of the live action feature. I came up with a story about Selina Kyle, based loosely on an idea I had while developing another Batman video after SubZero. They liked it, and asked me to write an outline, which I did. Then, Warner Home Video decided it had to also include the new Catwoman portrayed by Halle Berry. They sent me the script for the movie so I could see who this new Catwoman was. I had to completely rethink my story, but still managed to retain the central premise. I wrote a complete script, which portrayed how these two women meet, and discover more about themselves. It delved much deeper into the Egyptian mythology set up in the Catwoman movie. I think it would have made a pretty entertaining video. Too bad the live action film did so poorly, as that pretty much killed any chance of my script ever getting made.

Judging by how poor that mess of a Catwoman movie was, I don't believe the animated tie-in was going to be any good. Nothing will be more disappointing than the prospect of a Catwoman movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer going to waste.

[thecolorsblend]

The late Boyd Kirkland was interviewed in 2005 and looked back at the show.

https://dcanimated.com/WF/batman/btas/backstage/interviews/kirkland.php

These are the comments that caught my attention.

Given how you left Mr. Freeze at the end of the SubZero direct to video feature, how did you feel about the characters return in The New Batman Adventures?

Well, it's certainly not a direction I would have gone. The Mr. Freeze in Heart of Ice and SubZero was a wonderfully tragic, sympathetic character. The walking head with two bimbo sidekicks in Cold Comfort was played just for shock value.

I agree with him that Mr. Freeze in TNBA cheapens what seemed to be a rather fitting conclusion for the character in SubZero, where he was finally at peace once Nora was finally cured and seeks refuge in the Arctic, away from civilisation. To see him go from that to relapsing as an android beyond reason or humanity was disappointing.

​But then again, SubZero wasn't originally planned as the final chapter of Mr. Freeze's journey. Bruce Timm wanted to adapt the short comic story White Christmas from Batman Adventures Holiday Special #1 for an episode, but he had to drop it when Boyd Kirkland and Glen Murakami wrote SubZero. The reason is because the comic took place when Nora had died, whereas she is still alive and comatose in Kirkland's movie. As a matter of fact, Timm went so far to state he thought Nora had already died by the end of Heart of Ice, and never would've kept her alive if he had a choice.

All this goes to show is the showrunners and creators didn't always see eye-to-eye with some ideas. Kirkland did mention some of the ideas he gave to the writers for some episodes weren't used, so he must've looked at SubZero as an opportunity of doing a Batman story his way. According to his writing credits on IMDB, SubZero was the only Batman story he ever wrote.

If anybody is interested in reading Timm's thoughts about Nora Fries, check out the link below and turn to page 14:
https://issuu.com/twomorrows/docs/backissue99preview

Never was a big SubZero fan. Always thought it was just plain weak. Plus, I think the only time Nora was ever shown on screen in Heart Of Ice was in the flashback. Based on that, I assumed that Boyle had killed her with his little stunt. It made sense that Mr. Freeze wanted revenge on Boyle for his wife's death, not just because Boyle turned him into a freak. Discovering that Nora was somehow alive after all just rang hollow for me.

Plus, the White Christmas comic story is just so powerful.

And that leads into my big criticism of Mr. Freeze in BTAS. Honestly, aside from "Heart Of Ice", I don't think that version of the character is very good. SZ just isn't a good movie if you ask me, I think "Deep Freeze" brought Nora back too (which is lame), "Cold Comfort" misses the whole point of "Heart Of Ice" and "Meltdown" is almost (but not quite) redeemed by Freeze's "Believe me, you're the only one who cares" line.

All in all, "Heart Of Ice" is where the character's story should've ended. His subsequent appearances don't do him any favors, mostly.

[The Joker]

Grant Morrison theorized that at the very bare minimum, Bruce Wayne would have standing, ah, arrangements with maybe three or four different friends of a similar status to him. Basically, plates in modern parlance.

His theory comes from the fact that Bruce probably strives to be as healthy as possible. And y'know has various health benefits to it. I don't think it would be a lustful thing for him so much as an item he checks off his to-do list.

I don't rly agree with Morrison there. But I think I understand his logic.

It's pretty clear that Grant would NOT have fit as a member of the Bat books around the time that "No Man's Land" was up and running. I'll have to find the magazine to scan some pages, but I distinctly recall Dennis O'Neil adamantly stating in a Wizard Batman special published around 1998, that "Son of the Demon" was definitely a Elseworlds story, and even then-Editor Scott Peterson stating that Batman probably hasn't had sex in 10 years!

Course, roughly 8 years go by, Grant starts his run, and my, my, my, how things changed.

[The Joker]

The list of Batman's bedpost notches almost certainly includes:

* Catwoman
* Talia
* Andrea (in BTAS continuity)
* Lady Shiva (fight me, they totally did)
* Poison Ivy (she totally roofied him in TLH, yeah they did it)
* Wonder Woman, probably
* Black Canary
* Zatanna

You forgot Barbara Gordon (both in the DCAU and The Killing Joke animated adaptation).

So Bruce Timm reckons Batman hooking up with Barbara is meant to be a mistake and is intended to make you feel gross. It definitely felt weird when I saw that phone call scene in Mystery of the Batwoman, that's for sure.

If Wonder Woman was meant be 18 years old in JL, as Dwayne McDuffie suggests, then that definitely makes Bruce Wayne creepy. Even more so than hooking up with Barbara.

Yeah, Diana sleeping with Batman within the DCAU, is about the only universe I can imagine that ever happening in a long running continuity (excluding any possible Elseworlds type stories out there of course). Wondy being around 18 at the time, pretty much makes it the DC answer to Marvel's Magneto/Rogue coupling that's brought up from time to time. Though Mags got Bruce beat in the age difference gap there.

[The Dark Knight]

Never was a big SubZero fan. Always thought it was just plain weak. Plus, I think the only time Nora was ever shown on screen in Heart Of Ice was in the flashback. Based on that, I assumed that Boyle had killed her with his little stunt. It made sense that Mr. Freeze wanted revenge on Boyle for his wife's death, not just because Boyle turned him into a freak. Discovering that Nora was somehow alive after all just rang hollow for me.

Plus, the White Christmas comic story is just so powerful.

And that leads into my big criticism of Mr. Freeze in BTAS. Honestly, aside from "Heart Of Ice", I don't think that version of the character is very good. SZ just isn't a good movie if you ask me, I think "Deep Freeze" brought Nora back too (which is lame), "Cold Comfort" misses the whole point of "Heart Of Ice" and "Meltdown" is almost (but not quite) redeemed by Freeze's "Believe me, you're the only one who cares" line.

All in all, "Heart Of Ice" is where the character's story should've ended. His subsequent appearances don't do him any favors, mostly.

The Batman (2004) has Nora completely absent, which gives a change of pace considering the modern reliance on that backstory. No ice gun either. He's shooting it from his hands, similar to a character like Sandman. This Freeze started out as a thief, remains that and becomes more of a monster, right down to his voice. There's also a plot with him hibernating for 1000 years after Batman's death, which gets creativity and determination points from me.

Is it as nuanced as Heart of Ice? No. But I appreciate the difference.

Of the Heart of Ice backstory I like the Arkham depiction, particularly the resolution with Nora. She wakes up and chooses to live her remaining few days with Victor, rather than be frozen again and watch his criminality and madness. That's an ending I can get behind.

[The Laughing Fish]

Never was a big SubZero fan. Always thought it was just plain weak. Plus, I think the only time Nora was ever shown on screen in Heart Of Ice was in the flashback. Based on that, I assumed that Boyle had killed her with his little stunt. It made sense that Mr. Freeze wanted revenge on Boyle for his wife's death, not just because Boyle turned him into a freak. Discovering that Nora was somehow alive after all just rang hollow for me.

Plus, the White Christmas comic story is just so powerful.

Difference of opinion over SubZero aside, history tells us the reason it got made is because WB wanted to capitalise on the hype surrounding Schumacher's next Batman movie. Long before it got delayed for nearly a year after B&R flopped. If Mr. Freeze didn't appear in B&R then I think it's safe to say SubZero never would've happened, and Kirkland would've gotten another Batman story to work with.

I can't tell if this video is joking or not, but it claims Kirkland was going to use Bane as the main villain during early development, until he was replaced with Mr. Freeze once Schwarzenegger was cast. That's the first time I heard about this.

And that leads into my big criticism of Mr. Freeze in BTAS. Honestly, aside from "Heart Of Ice", I don't think that version of the character is very good. SZ just isn't a good movie if you ask me, I think "Deep Freeze" brought Nora back too (which is lame), "Cold Comfort" misses the whole point of "Heart Of Ice" and "Meltdown" is almost (but not quite) redeemed by Freeze's "Believe me, you're the only one who cares" line.

All in all, "Heart Of Ice" is where the character's story should've ended. His subsequent appearances don't do him any favors, mostly.

I have to call out Timm's inconsistency when he claims Nora died in Heart of Ice. I watched Deep Freeze today, and not only does Nora appear again, Timm's name appears in the story credits together with Paul Dini. At the very best, Nora was presumed dead until Grant Walker smuggled her back to his lair. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is Timm completely forgot about this episode and always favoured Heart of Ice, which he directed. That's very unlikely because he was involved in making both episodes, but I suppose it does go to show how forgettable Deep Freeze is compared to its predecessor.

Despite expressing creative differences over SubZero, Timm wasn't always faithful when it came to his take on Nora's fate.

Yeah, Diana sleeping with Batman within the DCAU, is about the only universe I can imagine that ever happening in a long running continuity (excluding any possible Elseworlds type stories out there of course). Wondy being around 18 at the time, pretty much makes it the DC answer to Marvel's Magneto/Rogue coupling that's brought up from time to time. Though Mags got Bruce beat in the age difference gap there.

Magneto is in his fifties at the very least, isn't he? I believe Rogue is roughly around the same age as Scarlet Witch, his daughter.

Yeah, that is definitely weird, and wrong.