The Star Trek Thread

[The Joker]

Thanks for the detailed, and informative reply, Silver. You assuredly have a vast knowledge of Trek lore, and your interpretation sounds about right to me. Honestly, I don't know much about Star Trek whatsoever, and had to have a co-worker explain to me just who Gary Mitchell was when I told him about the 765874. However, he had no interpretation of what was going on, and the only other interpretation I read, had something to do with the notion that Mitchell wasn't killed in the original series, and decided to pluck Kirk from "Generations" to reunite with a dying Prime Spock that was stranded in the Abrams Trek universe. I think there was something about Prime Spock having passed away in the latest Trek film (Beyond?), but I'm just going off memory here. Your interpretation of the events in 765874 are overall more satisfying than this interpretation I read initially, but it's an interesting subject.

Star Trek is one of those franchises I never really devoted a whole lot of time into, and it's not because I was absolutely disinterested in Trek, but mainly because by the time I was somewhat more keen, there was a sense of being overwhelmed by just how much Trek there was by the 1990's. Star Wars, for a time, was easy. Three films, and you're pretty much done. Shadows of the Empire was a nice companion piece, and maybe you might run up on the Holiday Special at a convention or something, but that was really about it prior to the release of the prequels. I found that waaay more easier to digest, vs seeking out (prior to the DVD releases) the Star Trek original series, cartoon, the multiple films, TNG, and other spin offs.

Perhaps for newbies to Trek, it's more attainable to just regulate what you're more interested in, and skip the rest, rather than try and absorb everything (cause that would be quite the undertaking ...), but I don't have the faintest clue if that's truly a good idea or not when it comes to jumping into the Star Trek universe. I remember something about Quentin Tarantino giving a amusing quote about how he just "saw" Trek as being a 1960's television show and that's literally it (I assume he doesn't hold any of the Trek films/spin offs in high regard?), but this was around the time when a QT-directed Star Trek film was being floated around for a bit several years back (which probably would have been interesting).

[Silver Nemesis]

Honestly, I don't know much about Star Trek whatsoever, and had to have a co-worker explain to me just who Gary Mitchell was when I told him about the 765874. However, he had no interpretation of what was going on, and the only other interpretation I read, had something to do with the notion that Mitchell wasn't killed in the original series, and decided to pluck Kirk from "Generations" to reunite with a dying Prime Spock that was stranded in the Abrams Trek universe. I think there was something about Prime Spock having passed away in the latest Trek film (Beyond?), but I'm just going off memory here.

That's a plausible theory. Mitchell possessed almost godlike levels of power, so such a feat might well be within his abilities.

Star Trek is one of those franchises I never really devoted a whole lot of time into, and it's not because I was absolutely disinterested in Trek, but mainly because by the time I was somewhat more keen, there was a sense of being overwhelmed by just how much Trek there was by the 1990's.

I just finished re-watching the entire Next Generation series on DVD this week, and there is indeed a lot of material to get through. As far as TV Trek goes, I'd say season 1 & 2 of TOS and season 4-7 of TNG hold up best. I haven't watched DS9 and Voyager in years, so I can't remember how good they are, and I never really got into Enterprise.

But for me, peak Trek is the classic movie series, with Wrath of Khan representing the franchise's apex. I imagine a newcomer could watch the TOS movies without seeing the TV show and still enjoy them. But if I were to recommend four episodes from the TV series that would prepare someone for the films – not necessarily essential viewing, but advisable viewing – they'd be the following:

'The Naked Time' (season 1, episode 4): Because it introduces the concept of space-time warp which features prominently in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

'Space Seed' (season 1, episode 22): Because it introduces Khan and sets up the events of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

'Amok Time' (season 2 episode 1): Because it introduces the concept of pon farr that features in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, and because it's the only TOS episode to feature Spock's homeworld of Vulcan.

'Journey to Babel' (season 2, episode 10): Because it introduces Spock's parents, both of whom appear in the movie series. This is the only episode of TOS to feature Sarek, Spock's father.

I'm not saying these are the four best episodes of TOS, although I would rank 'Space Seed' and 'Amok Time' among my personal top ten. But if a newcomer was to watch these four episodes, they'd have a perfect foundation for watching the movies and would possess all the lore they needed to understand them fully.

Star Wars, for a time, was easy. Three films, and you're pretty much done. Shadows of the Empire was a nice companion piece, and maybe you might run up on the Holiday Special at a convention or something, but that was really about it prior to the release of the prequels. I found that waaay more easier to digest, vs seeking out (prior to the DVD releases) the Star Trek original series, cartoon, the multiple films, TNG, and other spin offs.

Others might remember differently, but I recall that back around 1990-1995 Start Trek was far more popular than Star Wars. The popularity of Star Wars seemed to have died down in the late eighties, and it didn't really start to pick up again until Shadows of the Empire in 1996. Then the Special Editions came out, and Star Wars reclaimed the top spot among sci-fi franchises in time to build hype for the Prequel Trilogy. But back in the early to mid nineties, I recall Trek being the more popular franchise.

Arguably that was the peak era of classic Trek. TNG was at its best during seasons 4-7 (1990-1994). TOS episodes were constantly being rerun on TV and the Kirk movie series ended on a high note with the excellent Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country in 1991. Deep Space Nine started in 1993, with Voyager launching soon after in 1995. Star Trek was everywhere. The merchandise was in all the shops, it was on the cover of all the TV and sci-fi magazines, the novels and comics were in every high street book store, and other TV shows were constantly spoofing or making pop culture references to the franchise. The way I remember it, the biggest multimedia franchises of the early nineties were Star Trek, Batman, The Simpsons, Jurassic Park, Mario, Sonic and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Fast forward to 1999, and Star Trek's popularity was in decline. Star Trek: Insurrection was released in December 1998 in the US, but in the UK it came out slightly later on January 1st 1999. It grossed a modest $117.8 million. Then just five months later The Phantom Menace came out and netted a whopping $1.046 billion. Star Wars had clearly reclaimed the crown, in popularity if not in quality. Attack of the Clones went on to eclipse Star Trek: Nemesis in 2002. Many people didn't even notice a new Star Trek film had come out. It couldn't compete with Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man and Star Wars.

But around 1990-1995, Star Trek was king among sci-fi franchises. Although I've always liked Star Trek, I still preferred Star Wars. At least until around 2012. Then, realising that Lucas was done with SW, I started to go back and revisit Star Trek. It's given me a lot of comfort over the past decade, during the Dark Times of Disney-era SW. Both franchises are pretty much dead to me in their modern incarnations. I'm not interested in Star Trek from 2009 onwards, or Star Wars from 2013 onwards, but I still love going back and experiencing the classic years of both franchises. Star Wars had a much bigger impact on my childhood and early adulthood, but I've tended to enjoy Star Trek more in my thirties.

On the subject of dense lore, I recently go back into Warhammer. Now that's an overwhelmingly deep mythology. I'm very much a casual fan and definitely no expert. I first got into Warhammer literally thirty years ago, around late 1994, and then lost interest in the franchise around 1996. That is until a few months ago, when I started reading the books and purchased a 10th edition Warhammer 40k introductory set. I'd like to create a thread about Warhammer, as I think a lot of our site regulars would enjoy that universe. Especially those who feel alienated by the feminisation of modern Star Wars. But the dense lore makes it a difficult thing to explain to newcomers. There's a Warhammer 40k-theme episode of the Amazon series Secret Level coming out on December 10th.

Maybe this will be a good entry point for new fans. At any rate, we could use a Warhammer thread. Then maybe this guy will join the site.

[thecolorsblend]

I just finished re-watching the entire Next Generation series on DVD this week, and there is indeed a lot of material to get through. As far as TV Trek goes, I'd say season 1 & 2 of TOS and season 4-7 of TNG hold up best.

I agree with this. I see some bright spots in Next Gen's third season. But 04 to 07 are peak Next Gen.

As for TOS, I always liked it. But not long after Trek09 came out, I rewatched all of the first two seasons. Now, yes, some of those episodes are better than others. But mostly, they're highly enjoyable and I simply savor those first two seasons. Peak sci-fi in my opinion.

I haven't watched DS9 and Voyager in years, so I can't remember how good they are, and I never really got into Enterprise.

Aside from In The Pale Moonlight, I haven't watched much DS9.

But Voyager... oh man. Voyager had SO much potential. And so little of it was truly explored. An average episode of Voyager could've just as easily been an episode of any other Trek show. The show's concept of Voyager being trapped in the Delta Quadrant wasn't as big of a factor in the various storylines as it could've been. And should've been.

Which is a shame because it takes so little imagination to see where Voyager could've been epic. But as it stands, despite the fact that I've seen very little DS9, I still consider Voyager to be the weakest of the bunch. The show's bright spots do not overcome its weaknesses in my opinion.

As for Enterprise, I find myself pretty much agreeing with the fan consensus. The first two seasons are something to GET THROUGH. The third season is massive. I can't get enough of it, frankly. The fourth season is nearly as enjoyable while telling smaller scale stories.

When people claim that Enterprise was cancelled while its best days were still ahead of it, yeah, that's easy to see. The showrunners finally cracked the code of the show in the third season and the future looked bright. It's a shame that the show ended when it did. But there are two great seasons of it so that's something.

Others might remember differently, but I recall that back around 1990-1995 Start Trek was far more popular than Star Wars. The popularity of Star Wars seemed to have died down in the late eighties, and it didn't really start to pick up again until Shadows of the Empire in 1996. Then the Special Editions came out, and Star Wars reclaimed the top spot among sci-fi franchises in time to build hype for the Prequel Trilogy. But back in the early to mid nineties, I recall Trek being the more popular franchise.

I was coming of age in that era. Star Trek was by far the more prolific franchise at the time. Not even a question.

Next Gen and DS9 were in full swing on TV, those TOS movies were winding down but were still being released, DC had been releasing some really awesome TOS and TNG comics, the Trek novels (I'm told) were firing on all cylinders, so on and so forth. There were even TNG action figures coming out if you can believe that. Fans were responding too. In those times, Star Trek-specific cons were very much the norm. Not comic cons or even generalized sci-fi cons. Rather, cons catering specifically to Trek. Basically, Star Trek was a franchise that was being actively developed and expanded at the time.

Whereas Star Wars was being resuscitated. New action figures were coming out, the Bantam novels were underway following Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, Dark Horse was publishing some fairly underrated (in today's world) Star Wars comics, the Super Nintendo games were coming out and were big hits, etc. But there wasn't new "product" in terms of canon stuff. Everything coming out was strictly EU or else it was collectible swag. But the canon itself was not expanding. And indeed, it would not expand until Shadows Of The Empire and, obviously, the prequels. I remember Trek fans teasing (in a good natured way) Star Wars fans. "Generations is coming out in a few months. But where's the new Star Wars movie?"

These days, there are smoldering craters where the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises used to be. But in the early to mid Nineties, my memory of it is that Trek had the much bigger fanbase with infinitely more STUFF coming out that catered to them.

I think a huge part of that was the cast constantly doing press. My impression is that TNG cast members were constantly giving interviews or quotes to TV Guide, Entertainment Weekly, Comics Scene magazine (and similar fan-oriented publications) and whatnot. That's my memory of it but that might not actually be true. Still, that impression comes from somewhere. Whether it was LeVar Burton or Brent Spiner or Jonathan Frakes or whoever else, the cast members were virtually inescapable in all different kinds of print media. They seemed almost determined to focus on print media, which in those times was very logical.

Fast forward to 1999, and Star Trek's popularity was in decline. Star Trek: Insurrection was released in December 1998 in the US, but in the UK it came out slightly later on January 1st 1999.

I always lamented that too. Insurrection isn't great. But it's better than its reputation would lead you to believe. It's certainly light years beyond modern Trek. Anyway, as you say, that's where the wheels started coming off the wagon.

I'm not sure if it was a problem of Trek over-saturation by that point, evolving tastes, the reemergence of Star Wars, actually diminishing returns with Trek or what. But 1998 seems to have been the beginning of the end for that era of Trek.

On the subject of dense lore, I recently go back into Warhammer. Now that's an overwhelmingly deep mythology.

Warhammer has been on my wish list for a while now. I've been trying to figure out what an entry point into it would be. But I haven't found anything too specific. Not that I've invested a lot of effort in looking.

I was hoping for a movie or a show or a comic book series or a novel series or some other thing that would provide me with a gateway into the franchise.

[Silver Nemesis]

I agree with this. I see some bright spots in Next Gen's third season. But 04 to 07 are peak Next Gen.

I enjoyed watching TNG season 2 as a kid, but revisiting it on DVD I found it a real slog to get through. There are only two episodes I like from that season – 'Elementary, Dear Data' and 'Q Who' – but the rest I'm happy to skip over. The season 3 finale, 'The Best of Both Worlds Part I', is where I think TNG gets consistently good. From that point onwards, most episodes are good and many of them great.

As for Enterprise, I find myself pretty much agreeing with the fan consensus. The first two seasons are something to GET THROUGH. The third season is massive. I can't get enough of it, frankly. The fourth season is nearly as enjoyable while telling smaller scale stories.

When people claim that Enterprise was cancelled while its best days were still ahead of it, yeah, that's easy to see. The showrunners finally cracked the code of the show in the third season and the future looked bright. It's a shame that the show ended when it did. But there are two great seasons of it so that's something.

One day I will get around to watching Enterprise. The later seasons sound promising, but I'd want to watch the first two seasons as well. That show represents the biggest gap in my knowledge of classic Trek.

There were even TNG action figures coming out if you can believe that.

I remember those figures. I also remember Geordie visors being popular merchandise back in the day. And of course Star Trek spaceship models have always been in demand. I've still got a small metal Enterprise NCC-1701 model from the mid nineties. My brother had the Next Gen interactive video board game. Here's the video that came with it, featuring the voice of Jonathan Frakes and filmed on the set of the TV show.

I wish I still had this. It was a fun game.

I always lamented that too. Insurrection isn't great. But it's better than its reputation would lead you to believe. It's certainly light years beyond modern Trek. Anyway, as you say, that's where the wheels started coming off the wagon.

I've got some nostalgia for Insurrection that elevates it slightly for me. It's a middling entry in the film series that's marred by some forced humour, and the central moral quandary concerning the Federation displacing people was arguably handled better in the TV show. But it's really not that bad. It's an ok late-nineties sci-fi adventure movie, and you're right about it being superior to any recent Trek.

But yeah, Insurrection seems to have been a turning point for Trek's decline in popularity. And ultimately it was a disappointing follow-up to First Contact.

Warhammer has been on my wish list for a while now. I've been trying to figure out what an entry point into it would be. But I haven't found anything too specific. Not that I've invested a lot of effort in looking.

I was hoping for a movie or a show or a comic book series or a novel series or some other thing that would provide me with a gateway into the franchise.

I've created a thread on the subject with some recommendations for getting started: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=4344.new#new

The following video is an interesting exploration of how Warhammer is essentially the anti-Star Trek, and how 40k's hilariously over-the-top dystopian nightmare vision of the future can be read as a satire of progressive utopian sci-fi stories such as Roddenberry created.

I suspect this is one of the reasons Warhammer's popularity has increased in recent years while other franchises are dying. It ranks alongside The Lord of the Rings as one of the most masculine sci-fi/fantasy franchises out there, which is something many male genre fans are craving.

[thecolorsblend]

Here's an excellent video from The Critical Drinker decrying the infantilization of modern film and TV audiences. He uses the Star Trek franchise as a case study – contrasting the emotional maturity of classic Trek against the juvenile writing in modern Trek – but the critique is equally applicable to modern commercial entertainment in general. It's well worth a watch if you've fifteen minutes to spare.

The thumbnail there gave me pause.

I want to revisit the idea of Star Trek Into Darkness. Not in terms of rewatching the movie (once was plenty, thanks) but more in terms of how it LOOKED like it was going to turn out.

Call it naive if you want. But based on the set pictures and the trailer that came out, I started wondering that STID would be a feature length remake of Where No Man Has Gone Before, a TOS episode. I adore WNMHGB. And apparently, I love it more than a lot of dedicated Trek fans, who see flaws and problems with it. I see those flaws too. But I also see how WNMHGB absolutely set the tenor for what TOS would become.

So, the idea of revisiting that and fixing those tiny little hiccups that admittedly do exist in the original WNMHGB episode was very appealing to me. And it looked like Benedict Cumberbatch might be playing the role of Gary Mitchell and Alice Eve would play Dr. Dehner. And since it's the Kelvin timeline, there would be opportunities to bring in extra characters, flesh out the story a little bit more, maybe scale the production up from what was possible with Sixties television and essentially tell a grander story using the original WNMHGB as an overall framework.

Obviously, that didn't happen because JJ Abrams has never had an original thought in his life, the hack.

Even so, I maintain that WNMHGB is one of those Trek episodes that sincerely could benefit from a thoughtful, heartfelt remake in the modern era. And considering the "political reboot" that Hollywood appears to be embracing right now, now might not be a bad time for such a thing.

Even so, I do wish that STID had used more or less the same cast and been an extended remake of WNMHGB. I'll always wonder how Pine would've approached that story. Certainly, it would've benefited him more than badly remaking WOK, literally one of the greatest Trek stories ever told (if not THE greatest).

[Kamdan]

The thumbnail there gave me pause.

I want to revisit the idea of Star Trek Into Darkness. Not in terms of rewatching the movie (once was plenty, thanks) but more in terms of how it LOOKED like it was going to turn out.

Call it naive if you want. But based on the set pictures and the trailer that came out, I started wondering that STID would be a feature length remake of Where No Man Has Gone Before, a TOS episode. I adore WNMHGB. And apparently, I love it more than a lot of dedicated Trek fans, who see flaws and problems with it. I see those flaws too. But I also see how WNMHGB absolutely set the tenor for what TOS would become.

So, the idea of revisiting that and fixing those tiny little hiccups that admittedly do exist in the original WNMHGB episode was very appealing to me. And it looked like Benedict Cumberbatch might be playing the role of Gary Mitchell and Alice Eve would play Dr. Dehner. And since it's the Kelvin timeline, there would be opportunities to bring in extra characters, flesh out the story a little bit more, maybe scale the production up from what was possible with Sixties television and essentially tell a grander story using the original WNMHGB as an overall framework.

Obviously, that didn't happen because JJ Abrams has never had an original thought in his life, the hack.

Even so, I maintain that WNMHGB is one of those Trek episodes that sincerely could benefit from a thoughtful, heartfelt remake in the modern era. And considering the "political reboot" that Hollywood appears to be embracing right now, now might not be a bad time for such a thing.

Even so, I do wish that STID had used more or less the same cast and been an extended remake of WNMHGB. I'll always wonder how Pine would've approached that story. Certainly, it would've benefited him more than badly remaking WOK, literally one of the greatest Trek stories ever told (if not THE greatest).

Did you ever read the IDW comics series that included a new adaptation of Where No Man Has Gone Before? I actually didn't mind it where they addressed the insecurities of this incarnation of Kirk. Wish that it was the basis for the sequel instead of all of the obvious deception on the filmmakers' part to not let us know that obviously the villain was Khan. There was also decent adaptations of The Return of the Archons and The Omega Glory in the series.