The Flash (2022)

[The Joker]

Rumour has it that Joker will make a cameo. Not Jack's Joker though, it's believed to be Leto. Nicholson not making an appearance wouldn't surprise me, because he hasn't been acting for over a decade.

If Jack's good with it, there's a couple of ways of having his Joker appear in this movie that wouldn't actually require Jack actually being there on the set. I'm good with Leto appearing as the Joker alongside Batfleck in the Snyderverse portion(s) of the movie, but having Leto's Joker in the Burtonverse timeline is really iffy.

[The Laughing Fish]

If Jack's good with it, there's a couple of ways of having his Joker appear in this movie that wouldn't actually require Jack actually being there on the set.

Maybe, but that will depend if Nicholson will allow it. I remember reading he earned big money over royalties every time his likeness was used for merchandise back in the day. He might demand to be paid again.

If it's too expensive to pay Nicholson, what the hacks at WB might do is use his Joker as a headless cameo, as they did for Cavill's Superman in Shazam. Doing that could be a cheap loophole to avoid paying Nicholson.

I'm good with Leto appearing as the Joker alongside Batfleck in the Snyderverse portion(s) of the movie, but having Leto's Joker in the Burtonverse timeline is really iffy.

Having Leto's Joker in the Burtonverse timeline would make as much sense as having JK Simmons' Gordon living in the same timeline. Which doesn't at all.

If Leto appears, this could give credibility to the rumour that Muschietti loved ZSJL and wants to explore the Snyderverse as much as possible. But then again, it's rumoured the new Supergirl and the second Barry Allen live in the Burton universe too.

What are the odds they try to make Leto a new Joker in the Burtonverse? This reminds me of this other rumour I heard earlier this year that the studio wanted Leto's Joker back for Batman Beyond. I don't believe it's true.

[thecolorsblend]

All due respect to everyone. But Nicholson is 84 and seems to have retired. The gossip is that he still gets great offers even after ten years of inactivity... which says a lot about how large his legend looms in that industry even today. Point being that he obviously hasn't accepted any of those offers. On that basis, I can't see why he'd want to accept a Joker thing either.

The guy's net worth is something like $400 million too. So, I don't think he'd be motivated by money.

I think we need to let this one go.

[The Joker]

Maybe, but that will depend if Nicholson will allow it. I remember reading he earned big money over royalties every time his likeness was used for merchandise back in the day. He might demand to be paid again.

If it's too expensive to pay Nicholson, what the hacks at WB might do is use his Joker as a headless cameo, as they did for Cavill's Superman in Shazam. Doing that could be a cheap loophole to avoid paying Nicholson.

I believe Jack even gets royalties from any sequels following B89 as well. Not sure if this extends out with the Nolan films, and beyond, but it was an incredible deal that he made with Warners back then. For sure.

Jack's good friend, Danny Devito, even recalled that pretty much the only bit of advice he gave Danny about signing on to "Batman Returns" was, "Try and get my deal." 

Having Leto's Joker in the Burtonverse timeline would make as much sense as having JK Simmons' Gordon living in the same timeline. Which doesn't at all.

Pretty much.

If Leto appears, this could give credibility to the rumour that Muschietti loved ZSJL and wants to explore the Snyderverse as much as possible.

That would be the preferred notion for Leto's Joker. Yeah.

What are the odds they try to make Leto a new Joker in the Burtonverse? This reminds me of this other rumour I heard earlier this year that the studio wanted Leto's Joker back for Batman Beyond. I don't believe it's true.

That would be the mother of ClusterF's to be perfectly honest. I can think of a way where Leto's Joker could be included in making an appearance within the Burtonverse, but it would be rather dismissive, and I'd rather not that route not be taken. Especially if the Snyderverse is going to carry on as one of the DCEU Earth's that could be revisited at any time. Burtonverse as it's earth. Snyderverse has it's earth. Reeves/Pattison's The Batman has their Earth-2. ect.

All due respect to everyone. But Nicholson is 84 and seems to have retired. The gossip is that he still gets great offers even after ten years of inactivity... which says a lot about how large his legend looms in that industry even today. Point being that he obviously hasn't accepted any of those offers. On that basis, I can't see why he'd want to accept a Joker thing either.

The guy's net worth is something like $400 million too. So, I don't think he'd be motivated by money.

I think we need to let this one go.

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear, but what I was getting at, was the notion of Jack Nicholson's Joker returning for a quick cameo, wouldn't require him having to actually come on the set as a actor, or even act in any capacity to be perfectly honest. It would be more of a 'permission of likeness' situation. Deepfake, or perhaps something similar with how Donald Pleasence/Dr. Loomis' cameo was handled in "Halloween Kills".

Either/or could work for a cameo. Given that Jack has stated the Joker is one of his favorite roles during his career, he may very well be friendly in signing off on this type of proposal. It would essentially be like seeing his Joker extend out beyond B89, without actually having to be there to do any of the work.

[The Dark Knight]

All due respect to everyone. But Nicholson is 84 and seems to have retired. The gossip is that he still gets great offers even after ten years of inactivity... which says a lot about how large his legend looms in that industry even today. Point being that he obviously hasn't accepted any of those offers. On that basis, I can't see why he'd want to accept a Joker thing either.

The guy's net worth is something like $400 million too. So, I don't think he'd be motivated by money.

I think we need to let this one go.

Not necessarily about this topic, but generally speaking, people don't seem to know the difference between accepting something will happen or not happen, and actually liking that thing is happening or not happening. Do I like the idea of vaccine mandates? Absolutely not. But they're happening regardless. Do I want the global elite to walk away from their agenda? Absolutely. But it's not going to happen. Some things really are that black and white.

[The Laughing Fish]

What are the odds they try to make Leto a new Joker in the Burtonverse? This reminds me of this other rumour I heard earlier this year that the studio wanted Leto's Joker back for Batman Beyond. I don't believe it's true.

That would be the mother of ClusterF's to be perfectly honest. I can think of a way where Leto's Joker could be included in making an appearance within the Burtonverse, but it would be rather dismissive, and I'd rather not that route not be taken.

It would definitely be messy, but it's not the mother of clusterf***s compared to the idea of The Flash rebooting the entire DC movie universe and Keaton replacing Affleck. That is allegedly the original intent for this movie, but depending on which scooper you ask, that's no longer the case because the script had undergone so many changes ever since production has started.

In addition to the rumour of Muschietti loving ZSJL, the rebooting of the DC universe was rumoured to be denied by AT&T because they value the Snyderverse. I find that hard to believe because they went MIA while Emmerich and co have been doing their best to sabotage ZSJL, from the marketing, to removing GL from the final cut, to ghosting Zack Snyder over how the cut performed on HBO Max, to firing Ray Fisher, to continuously giving the fans the finger ever since it came out and so on. Nonetheless, that's the rumour out there.

I don't believe Keaton replacing Affleck as the long term "DCEU" Batman will ever happen, nor does it make any sense. Not only Keaton is too old to keep playing the character on such a frequent basis, it would mean the Burtonverse would be drastically retconned too. For example, if Keaton were to appear in the new Batgirl movie alongside JK Simmons' Jim Gordon and Leslie Grace's Barbara Gordon, that would alter the events of the Batman '89 comics, because the disparity between the age and likeness of the Gordons - as well as the period of time - would make it impossible for Barbara to become a police sergeant and getting engaged to Harvey Dent. Anyone who thinks the events of those comics would remain intact and untouched is completely stupid. They would have to be either retconned or disregarded completely.

IF they were to merge Keaton into the new DC universe timeline, I'd go far and say he wouldn't be playing Tim Burton's Batman anymore, but another Batman who is from a different continuity that happens to look like Burton's Batman. The idea alone of changing Pat Hingle to Simmons as Commissioner Gordon is quite significant by itself, wouldn't you think?

The only way Keaton could enter the Batgirl and other timelines without retconning anything if he jumps from one portal to another like they did on the Arrowverse, but that would still be contrived and it's a trope that would get old very quickly.

Especially if the Snyderverse is going to carry on as one of the DCEU Earth's that could be revisited at any time.

Nowadays, I no longer buy the whole PR talk about the multiverse. I think it's just an excuse to get away from the idea of doing a shared universe. The truth is, Warner Butchers doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Unless it involves internal sabotage, protecting abusers and petty politics.

Hell, I'll go one better by saying they're trying manipulate everyone into seeing all of their content with this multiverse talk , but not continue the one universe many want to see.

I'll say it again, if the Discovery merger doesn't involve significant changes, expect the same garbage coming out from that studio.

All due respect to everyone. But Nicholson is 84 and seems to have retired. The gossip is that he still gets great offers even after ten years of inactivity... which says a lot about how large his legend looms in that industry even today. Point being that he obviously hasn't accepted any of those offers. On that basis, I can't see why he'd want to accept a Joker thing either.

The guy's net worth is something like $400 million too. So, I don't think he'd be motivated by money.

I think we need to let this one go.

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear, but what I was getting at, was the notion of Jack Nicholson's Joker returning for a quick cameo, wouldn't require him having to actually come on the set as a actor, or even act in any capacity to be perfectly honest. It would be more of a 'permission of likeness' situation. Deepfake, or perhaps something similar with how Donald Pleasence/Dr. Loomis' cameo was handled in "Halloween Kills".

Either/or could work for a cameo. Given that Jack has stated the Joker is one of his favorite roles during his career, he may very well be friendly in signing off on this type of proposal. It would essentially be like seeing his Joker extend out beyond B89, without actually having to be there to do any of the work.

Yeah, I thought that's what you meant as well. And given Billy Dee Williams is the same age as Nicholson, I can imagine they could do the same thing for Two-Face, if they really wanted to have another Burtonverse villain to appear as a cameo. Otherwise, I don't believe it's reasonable to expect both actors to appear. Williams might still be active than Nicholson, but it appears he mostly does voice acting in animation nowadays.

With all the gossip surrounding this production, it's really becoming a Flash movie in name only, isn't it?

[Gotham Knight]

Leto could work if he's established as 'The Joker II.'

[The Joker]

It would definitely be messy, but it's not the mother of clusterf***s compared to the idea of The Flash rebooting the entire DC movie universe and Keaton replacing Affleck. That is allegedly the original intent for this movie, but depending on which scooper you ask, that's no longer the case because the script had undergone so many changes ever since production has started.

In addition to the rumour of Muschietti loving ZSJL, the rebooting of the DC universe was rumoured to be denied by AT&T because they value the Snyderverse. I find that hard to believe because they went MIA while Emmerich and co have been doing their best to sabotage ZSJL, from the marketing, to removing GL from the final cut, to ghosting Zack Snyder over how the cut performed on HBO Max, to firing Ray Fisher, to continuously giving the fans the finger ever since it came out and so on. Nonetheless, that's the rumour out there.

I don't believe Keaton replacing Affleck as the long term "DCEU" Batman will ever happen, nor does it make any sense. Not only Keaton is too old to keep playing the character on such a frequent basis, it would mean the Burtonverse would be drastically retconned too. For example, if Keaton were to appear in the new Batgirl movie alongside JK Simmons' Jim Gordon and Leslie Grace's Barbara Gordon, that would alter the events of the Batman '89 comics, because the disparity between the age and likeness of the Gordons - as well as the period of time - would make it impossible for Barbara to become a police sergeant and getting engaged to Harvey Dent. Anyone who thinks the events of those comics would remain intact and untouched is completely stupid. They would have to be either retconned or disregarded completely.

IF they were to merge Keaton into the new DC universe timeline, I'd go far and say he wouldn't be playing Tim Burton's Batman anymore, but another Batman who is from a different continuity that happens to look like Burton's Batman. The idea alone of changing Pat Hingle to Simmons as Commissioner Gordon is quite significant by itself, wouldn't you think?

The only way Keaton could enter the Batgirl and other timelines without retconning anything if he jumps from one portal to another like they did on the Arrowverse, but that would still be contrived and it's a trope that would get old very quickly.

As a Joker guy, it's kinda what-and-what with me when it comes to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by retroactively inserting Keaton/Leto into positions that's just going to automatically cause major nonsensical/retcon/continuity problems going forth. Plus, as you suggest, doing that mucks up not only the Snyderverse, but also the Burton films as well. Which YOU WOULD THINK, would be an automatic deal breaker of an idea. We're well aware that Warners have no love for the Snyderverse, but I'm sure they have to be at least aware that fans have just as much of a love for Keaton as Batman, as they do for both Burton films as well. It's VERY much a package deal. If anything, and it's difficult to assess which scooper is on the money, and who's simply blowing smoke, but IF it is true that the plan for Keaton to retroactively replace Affleck is NOW null and void, that's a positive in the sea of negative Warners mismanagement.

Nowadays, I no longer buy the whole PR talk about the multiverse. I think it's just an excuse to get away from the idea of doing a shared universe. The truth is, Warner Butchers doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Unless it involves internal sabotage, protecting abusers and petty politics.

Hell, I'll go one better by saying they're trying manipulate everyone into seeing all of their content with this multiverse talk , but not continue the one universe many want to see.

I'll say it again, if the Discovery merger doesn't involve significant changes, expect the same garbage coming out from that studio.

It's definitely a realistic take on Warners and their predisposition for continually stepping on the rake. The multiverse concept though, is right there in front of them. DC was the first major comic book publisher to really explore the concept, and hell, you can say that CW's "Crisis on Infinite Earth's" was the dry run on a more grander cinematic "Endgame". Course, this would require some planning, and not just panic, or being reactionary on Warner's part.

Yeah, I thought that's what you meant as well. And given Billy Dee Williams is the same age as Nicholson, I can imagine they could do the same thing for Two-Face, if they really wanted to have another Burtonverse villain to appear as a cameo. Otherwise, I don't believe it's reasonable to expect both actors to appear. Williams might still be active than Nicholson, but it appears he mostly does voice acting in animation nowadays.

With all the gossip surrounding this production, it's really becoming a Flash movie in name only, isn't it?

Yeah, I think it's possible to see a easter egg of Billy Dee's Two-Face on a monitor inside the Batcave. That would suffice, and might even bump up the sales of the "Batman '89" trade following movie. As I'm sure there will likely be numerous videos and headlines pointing this out if it did transpire. "Oh, Billy Dee's Harvey Dent actually became Two-Face? I gotta check that out!" A good way to cross promote for sure. Heck, if permission is granted from Robin Williams estate, a really well done photoshopped image of Williams as the Riddler would be pretty neat. Considering just how often his name was associated with the character for literally decades (starting in '89, again in the early-mid '90's before Carrey was hired, and once again following "The Dark Knight" in 2008 when the popular assumption was that the Riddler was going to be the villain in the next Nolan Batmovie. Not to mention Williams and Nolan having already worked together prior with "Insomnia"). You could even have Barry quip upon seeing the photo, "He looks different too." Since a Snyderverse Riddler evidently already exists.

A deepfake, or cleverly done lookalike actor/merged with a voice actor that sounds A LOT like Jack, for a possible Nicholson Joker cameo would be a good way to call back to B89 as well as essentially prime the public if Warners still have any intention whatsoever on doing a Batman Beyond Return of the Joker movie.

But yeah, "The Flash" is kinda like "Spider-Man No Way Home". It's the Batman stuff that has my attention, just as it is pretty much everything outside of the mouse's version of Spider-Man that has my attention with "No Way Home".

Leto could work if he's established as 'The Joker II.'

Just what would that entail, exactly?

That Leto's the long lost son of Jack Napier?

Leto's Joker is another someone who fell into chemicals and emerged bleached white, with bleached green hair?

Leto's Joker is a overzealous fanatic, who idolizes Nicholson's Joker and wants to be essentially a copycat? The leader of the Jokerz gang?

I don't know. Any possibility just doesn't really sound all that satisfying, and I sincerely doubt Leto would have even wanted to sign on in the first place as the DCEU's Joker if he's just going to be regulated to "The Joker II". This is kinda like people theorizing Joaquin Phoenix's Joker is just the guy who just inspired the real Joker in that universe, and Phoenix came out and basically stated, "Nope. Wrong. I'm the real Joker." To which, he's exactly right in saying.

As I made a vague reference to in a previous post, you could insert Leto into the Burtonverse as the Joker, sure, but ultimately it would be rather dismissive of him as the Joker in the Snyderverse (which I'd rather them not do), especially just for the sakes of retroactively inserting him into the Burtonverse continuity, and I don't believe there's honestly any real positives he could gain in being "The Joker II" as he would be, even more so, compared to arguably the most ICONIC live action Joker for nearly two decades prior to Ledger's Joker in 2008.

As a guy who absolutely ADORES "Batman 1989", if we're hypothetically to have Keaton's Batman being rivaled by the Joker one last time in a live action Batman Beyond Return of the Joker movie (which theoretically could be Keaton's farewell), it better be Jack Nicholson's Joker. Deepfake the hell out of the physical actor, get a damn good Nicholson voice actor, and make the concluding chapter to the Burtonverse truly special.

The capability to achieve this is now obtainable, and to me, it's either "Go Big or Go Home". Either you go all out and OVER do it, or you don't do it at all.

Not necessarily about this topic, but generally speaking, people don't seem to know the difference between accepting something will happen or not happen, and actually liking that thing is happening or not happening. Do I like the idea of vaccine mandates? Absolutely not. But they're happening regardless. Do I want the global elite to walk away from their agenda? Absolutely. But it's not going to happen. Some things really are that black and white.

I won't speak much to this, but following last night, perhaps you're not quite as black pilled now as this post would suggest?

[The Laughing Fish]

As a Joker guy, it's kinda what-and-what with me when it comes to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by retroactively inserting Keaton/Leto into positions that's just going to automatically cause major nonsensical/retcon/continuity problems going forth. Plus, as you suggest, doing that mucks up not only the Snyderverse, but also the Burton films as well. Which YOU WOULD THINK, would be an automatic deal breaker of an idea.

I can't believe some Burtonverse fans seem open to this idea.

Anyway, I agree with you. If Keaton continues, he should do so as the Batman we recognise and further expand the lore. Same thing with Affleck. Replacing one over the other not only risks getting shoehorned, they risk getting changed and become unrecognisable. If that's the case then what's the point of them coming back?

As a guy who absolutely ADORES "Batman 1989", if we're hypothetically to have Keaton's Batman being rivaled by the Joker one last time in a live action Batman Beyond Return of the Joker movie (which theoretically could be Keaton's farewell), it better be Jack Nicholson's Joker. Deepfake the hell out of the physical actor, get a damn good Nicholson voice actor, and make the concluding chapter to the Burtonverse truly special.

The capability to achieve this is now obtainable, and to me, it's either "Go Big or Go Home". Either you go all out and OVER do it, or you don't do it at all.

Agreed 100%. As you mentioned, it would depend if Nicholson would give his permission for his likeness to be used, but I'd rather this as an option than Leto playing another version of the Joker in the DC multiverse.

Deepfakes have made outstanding progress over the last few years, but I have do a lot of concerns about how they're open to the general public. After reading some of the horror stories over how they're used for sinister intent, it's the type of technology that is often abused than one might imagine. It does make me believe it shouldn't have been made available anywhere outside the film industry. But that's a topic for another time.

[The Laughing Fish]

Earlier this year, Jared Leto was keen on the idea of sharing the screen with other live action Joker interpretations.

In a recent interview on the Variety Awards Circuit Podcast, DCEU Joker actor Jared Leto admitted that the potential of multiple Jokers coming into the DCEU through the multiverse would be something special.

During the show, the interviewer shared:

"My dream project is to dream to get all of the cinematic Joker's sort of like into the Spider-Verse in a movie where you and Joaquin [Phoenix] and Jack Nicholson can all play off each other. I just think that would be a masterclass."

Leto responded positively to the idea, saying that such a concept would be "a lot of fun":

"Oh my god. They might need to lock us up after that. That sounds like a lot of insanity. And a lot of fun.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210301185754/https://thedirect.com/article/jared-leto-joker-joaquin-phoenix-jack-nicholson-crossover

Cavill also suggested there can be more than one Superman interpretation and expressed his interest in continuing, while showing his support for a black Superman project. As I said before, Cavill was rumoured to appear in The Flash too. Regardless, Warner is setting themselves up for failure if they continue to use the multiverse as a PR stunt without having any real commitment to it.