Michael Keaton in talks to return as Batman

[Gotham Knight]

Why are the BOF guys acting like they're at a funeral?

It's kind of their thing. Jett defined the culture of that page a long time ago. Regarding Batman Returns, Jett said (paraphrased) "That just ain't Batman". Because anything that falls outside his narrow, shallow experience with the character is obviously "wrong" or something. The guy exemplified the NPC meme before there ever was an NPC meme.

Every fandom has a completely unbearable contingent. Jett leads that contingent of Batman fans. As is his right, he has staffed his website and forum accordingly. I have as much bad history with that guy as anybody. And, might I say, more bad history than most. So I don't pretend to be objective here. But I've gotten more peeks behind the BOF curtain than I ever wanted and it's not a pretty picture.

That's right! It's funny that I didn't remember that, but now that you mention it I do recall when I was more active on the site that BOF had a serious myopia problem, but then again so did I. I'm much more kumbaya, there is room for all my lord! these days. Reading the Bat comics books seriously from the start without an agenda facilitated a better understanding of the material and how fluid it truly is. One stops coveting the character. I guess BOF never got over it.

[thecolorsblend]

Why are the BOF guys acting like they're at a funeral?

It's kind of their thing. Jett defined the culture of that page a long time ago. Regarding Batman Returns, Jett said (paraphrased) "That just ain't Batman". Because anything that falls outside his narrow, shallow experience with the character is obviously "wrong" or something. The guy exemplified the NPC meme before there ever was an NPC meme.

Every fandom has a completely unbearable contingent. Jett leads that contingent of Batman fans. As is his right, he has staffed his website and forum accordingly. I have as much bad history with that guy as anybody. And, might I say, more bad history than most. So I don't pretend to be objective here. But I've gotten more peeks behind the BOF curtain than I ever wanted and it's not a pretty picture.

That's right! It's funny that I didn't remember that, but now that you mention it I do recall when I was more active on the site that BOF had a serious myopia problem, but then again so did I. I'm much more kumbaya, there is room for all my lord! these days. Reading the Bat comics books seriously from the start without an agenda facilitated a better understanding of the material and how fluid it truly is. One stops coveting the character. I guess BOF never got over it.

One other thing is that Jett was the original "Nolanite". At their worst, the Nolan contingent of fans basically rejected any other incarnation of Batman. They could be pretty obnoxious about it and they believed at the time (with some justification) that Nolan's version or something comparable to it would define all of Batman's live action incarnations from that point forward. Finally, the thinking seemed to go, we can stick with realism and put this fantasy nonsense to bed for good.

Then came Batfleck. Nolan wrapped up his story and Bale wasn't even talked to about coming to the DCEU. And now Keaton looks all but sure to return?

Yeah, I can see where events of recent years must've really shat in their cornflakes.

[Silver Nemesis]

I don't follow YouTubers, so can you say how credible these people are? What's their track record like?

Midnight's Edge is one of the best channels on YouTube for accurate reporting on controversial movie and TV-related matters. For example, during the Ghostbusters debacle of 2016 they regularly uploaded videos chronicling Sony's every misstep and presented evidence to disprove the media narrative that was painting the fans in a negative light. They've provided similar coverage of the problems plaguing the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and other contentious pop culture events. They tend to highlight perspectives that the mainstream press routinely overlook.

I've had some thoughts about this, and man oh man, there's some potential story telling with that one. If they go with a Burtonized Helena Wayne (which I would generally prefer since I like that Earth-Two stuff and never really liked the Post-Crisis Bertinelli Huntress all that much), there could be some interesting drama there in terms of Helena's upbringing. Perhaps she's estranged from both her parents? The possibility that both Bruce and Selina had a very rocky, on-off again relationship certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. People are not perfect, mistakes were made, and dysfunction was, unfortunately, always present. You could also have it where Helena considers Michael Gough's Alfred her "family" due to him being much more attentive to her as a child. Giving her a figure of stability before his eventual passing (which would be a call back to 1989 with Alfred being established as a warm fatherly figure thru dialogue.). Then there's the Batman Beyond scenario focusing upon Keaton's Batman (and maybe even Selina herself as well) addressing the mistakes they made in her upbringing and righting those wrongs....   

I'm typing this out pretty fast right now, but man, the potential is ripe with that one.

I'm digging all of these ideas. I also prefer the Pre-Crisis Helena over the Post-Crisis version. I'm a huge fan of the Earth-Two canon in general, including the Bronze Age stories surrounding Bruce and Selina's marriage, Batman's death and the origins of the Huntress. If you look back over all of our features and discussions concerning the similarities between Burton's Batman and the comics, you'll see the Earth-Two stories get brought up time and time again. The similarities might be coincidental, but they exist all the same.

And yes, Bruce is unmasking to reveal his secret identity to Selina in that last panel, just like he does in the film.

Jett defined the culture of that page a long time ago. Regarding Batman Returns, Jett said (paraphrased) "That just ain't Batman".

In fairness to Jett, I think he stopped saying that not long after I posted the comic-to-screen comparisons with Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper back in 2008. This could be my ego talking, but I'm pretty sure I was the first fan to dredge up that otherwise long-forgotten comic and make a big deal about the similarities. After the scans I uploaded started circulating, Jett did acknowledge the similarities in one of his articles or podcasts. I forget which it was now, but I recall him specifically namedropping HSK very soon after we posted one of the comic-to-screen features. It was either the Batman Returns one (https://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/1/2/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns) or the Pfeiffer's Cat article (https://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/5/29/comic-analysis-michelle-pfeiffer-catwoman). I forget which. But I remember he stopped saying "Batman Returns is not Batman" and started saying "I still hate the movie, but I acknowledge it takes elements from the comics and is a legitimate interpretation". Which is a slight improvement.

Ha. I know what you mean. Some people went so hard all in with Nolan. Everyone here knows the competitive juice between the two camps, especially in those days. I think it died down in recent years, but what happens now? It's just so mind warping that the game seems to have flipped completely the other way. I like lots of Batman interpretations, but if true, this is now OUR time.

Nolan fans circa 2005: "I get it. The Burton films were part of your childhood and you love Keaton's Batman for nostalgic reasons. But you've got to let go of the past and accept that Bale is the new Batman."

Burton fans circa 2021: "I get it. The Nolan films were part of your childhood and you love Bale's Batman for nostalgic reasons. But you've got to let go of the past and accept that Keaton is the new Batman."

As to Sutton, he reported that Snyder was coming back to JL last year. And nobody believed him. Needless to say, his stock has risen considerably since the ZSJL announcement. So far, I don't have much experience with him but every report I've seen attributed to him has come true.

Some others things Sutton announced early which later turned out to be true:

•   Doomsday in BvS.
•   Deathlok in Agents of SHIELD.
•   The Inhumans in Agents of SHIELD.
•   Benedict Cumberbatch playing Doctor Strange.
•   The Sony/Marvel deal.
•   He predicted Disney's acquisition of 20th Century Fox three and a half years before it was finalised.

That doesn't mean he's right about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

Here are some random thoughts about Flashpoint and Batman Beyond.

They're planning to film Flashpoint in England early next year, so they may as well return to Knebworth House for the stately Wayne Manor exteriors and Hatfield House for the interiors. There's no reason why stately Wayne Manor can't look exactly the same as it did in Batman 89. Or would fans prefer something closer to what we saw in Batman Returns? Or how about a new stately Wayne Manor entirely?

Burton was still living in the US when he shot the first two Batman films, but he's been based in England for a long time now. Presumably, if he does return, he'll be shooting Batman Beyond at the Warner Bros Studios in Leavesden, where they also filmed Wonder Woman and Justice League. Leavesden is in Hertfordshire, the same county in which both Knebworth House and Hatfield House are located. The proximity of these sites is another reason they should return to the Batman 89 locations.

If Burton is directing Batman Beyond, and if it is intended to be the final entry in his Batman trilogy, then I think Neo-Gotham should have a more gothic appearance than it did in the original animated series. It should still be futuristic, while retaining many of the architectural characteristics that defined Burton's earlier Gotham. It would also be cool if they recreated some specific locations from the old movies, like Crime Alley or the cathedral. Fritz Lang's Metropolis (1927) influenced Burton's cityscapes in the old films, and it would make a good reference for Neo-Gotham too. I'm thinking of the way Lang had a number of old gothic structures tucked away between the futuristic skyscrapers, such as Rotwang's peculiar house or the cathedral (which influenced the B89 cathedral sequence).

If Depp is going to be the new DCEU Joker, then does that mean Leto's out? Will Depp be playing a resurrected Jack Napier or a fusion of Nicholson and Leto's Jokers? The fusion angle seems plausible, since the Batman Beyond film will take place after the Burtonverse has merged with the DCEU in Flashpoint. Since the plot of Return of the Joker involves Tim Drake being possessed by the Joker's DNA, does that mean Depp will also be playing Drake or some other ally of Bruce's? I can imagine Depp being retroactively made the Robin of the Burtonverse, with flashbacks showing him and Keaton, digitally de-aged, working together after the events of Batman Returns. They could ditch the science fiction explanation from the original film and make it more supernatural; have it so that Depp is now the retired Dick Grayson/Nightwing who becomes possessed by the ghost of Nicholson's Joker. The idea of Dick becoming the new Joker would also reference The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

For the cinematography on Batman Beyond, how about Polish DP Dariusz Wolski? He served as director of photography on The Crow (1994), Dark City (1998), the Pirates of the Caribbean films and Prometheus (2012). He also previously worked with Tim Burton on Sweeney Todd (2007) and Alice in Wonderland (2010). He'd be perfect for Batman Beyond. Here are some examples of his work.

Emmanuel Lubezki would also be a good choice. He previously worked with Burton on Sleepy Hollow and has since acted as DP on Gravity (2013), Birdman (2014) and The Revenant (2015).

I'm assuming Benjamin Wallfisch will score Flashpoint, since he collaborated with Andy Muschietti on the director's previous two films. I'm perfectly happy with this, as I loved Wallfisch's work on Blade Runner 2049. However he should definitely reference Elfman's Batman theme. And obviously Elfman himself should score Batman Beyond if Burton returns as planned.

I'm always advocating for the classic grey and blue/black costume to appear in the movies, but in this case I want Keaton's costume to resemble his older suits. Stick with the armoured Neal Adams look, including the long ears and scalloped cape. All black, except for the belt and chest emblem.

Speaking of the chest emblem, the teaser poster for Batman Beyond should correspond with those of B89 and BR. I'm thinking of a red and black Bat emblem with red light or flames splashing across it.

[The Dark Knight]

I've had some thoughts about this, and man oh man, there's some potential story telling with that one. If they go with a Burtonized Helena Wayne (which I would generally prefer since I like that Earth-Two stuff and never really liked the Post-Crisis Bertinelli Huntress all that much), there could be some interesting drama there in terms of Helena's upbringing. Perhaps she's estranged from both her parents? The possibility that both Bruce and Selina had a very rocky, on-off again relationship certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

I'm siding with the Helena Wayne at the moment, and with your idea of a rocky relationship between Bruce and Selina. That seems more likely between these two, and would contrast against the happily ever after that Nolan went with. Beyond made Bruce a father, so mirroring that here wouldn't hurt. It would make Batgirl's training more meaningful. Perhaps Selina doesn't agree with the training, but comes to accept it. Something along those lines would be interesting to explore. Michelle would accept an invitation to return, I'm sure.

The Jokerz would be fitting for a Burton film given B89 and BR both feature clown gangs. I recall there was a planned headline of some sort stating JOKER'S BODY MISSING. I'm not sure how supernatural Burton would be willing to go, but I feel that's a possible option to open the door for Depp, or whoever plays the role. Burton's original sketch for the character could also be used.

[eledoremassis02]

Maybe they could get Paul Dini on board since he did pen a script for a Beyond film (granted it doesn't seem it got far)

Just googling Blade Runner 2049 fanart (haven't seen it) and it looks like an awesome mix of Returns Gotham, TAS, and Beyond (granted at least beyond was arguably inspired by Blade Runner and most definitely Akira!



It's also interesting how Keaton started doing Comic conventions so I wonder sorta inspired him to get back into comic book movies

[thecolorsblend]

The similarities might be coincidental, but they exist all the same.

When people say that things like that are a coincidence, I can't help thinking that they don't understand what they've just admitted to.

If the similarities are intentional references to the comics then credit must be given to Burton for taking more inspiration from the source material than he usually gets credit for.

But if the similarities are a total coincidence (as some people say) then what does it say about Burton that he knew nothing about the comics but still reached similar conclusions as those Golden Age creators? How locked into the source material must he have been to have gotten basically the same ideas from the same basic starting point as Kane and Finger?

Intentional or not, the similarities are real and I think it says a lot about Burton that they exist at all.

[Silver Nemesis]

The Hollywood Reporter is stating that Keaton will wear the costume:

► Michael Keaton is in talks to return as Batman. (And by Batman, we also mean Bruce Wayne. Despite pesky rumors from certain corners, there is no Thomas Wayne in the script, sources tell us. Also: Keaton would appear in costume.)

https://link.hollywoodreporter.com/view/5d72bf807e55540ee8500a04ccj4v.bbg/50b114d8

Just googling Blade Runner 2049 fanart (haven't seen it) and it looks like an awesome mix of Returns Gotham, TAS, and Beyond (granted at least beyond was arguably inspired by Blade Runner and most definitely Akira!

Those are great. This is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see. If the production designers are seeking to reconcile the anime cyberpunk look of the original TV series with the gothic art deco sensibility of the Burtonverse, then one compromise might be to go for a steampunk aesthetic. Something like this:

I know these designs seem pretty extreme compared to the more recent depictions of Gotham, but let's not forget that Burton's Gotham has always been a fantasy setting. And Batman Beyond is meant to take place in the future. I reckon a steampunk Gotham might be just what this film needs to give it a distinct visual identity, while at the same time making it feel consistent with the acclaimed production design showcased in Burton's earlier Batman films. I'd have no trouble believing the Gotham of B89 and BR might have evolved into something like this over the past thirty years.

The similarities might be coincidental, but they exist all the same.

When people say that things like that are a coincidence, I can't help thinking that they don't understand what they've just admitted to.

If the similarities are intentional references to the comics then credit must be given to Burton for taking more inspiration from the source material than he usually gets credit for.

But if the similarities are a total coincidence (as some people say) then what does it say about Burton that he knew nothing about the comics but still reached similar conclusions as those Golden Age creators? How locked into the source material must he have been to have gotten basically the same ideas from the same basic starting point as Kane and Finger?

Intentional or not, the similarities are real and I think it says a lot about Burton that they exist at all.

Well said.

[The Dark Knight]

If the similarities are intentional references to the comics then credit must be given to Burton for taking more inspiration from the source material than he usually gets credit for.

But if the similarities are a total coincidence (as some people say) then what does it say about Burton that he knew nothing about the comics but still reached similar conclusions as those Golden Age creators? How locked into the source material must he have been to have gotten basically the same ideas from the same basic starting point as Kane and Finger?

Intentional or not, the similarities are real and I think it says a lot about Burton that they exist at all.

That's the best way of explaining it.

Both of his films understand the importance of film as a medium, meaning the power of sound and image eliciting an emotional response in an audience. The descent into mystery, the Penguin carriage through the sewer and various other sequences prove my point. You don't require a complex plot for such movies to be burned into your consciousness, it's more about how they make you feel, and what you actually remember after watching them. I believe that's much harder to achieve.

I've seen some people rubbish the idea of Burton coming back, but I think they're crazy.

No Thomas Wayne? Good. More screen time for Keaton, who can also be 100% Burtonverse Bruce.
Keaton will wear the costume? I'm hoping so. I fully expect that to be minimal, but I'll take what I can get.

If there was only one sequence with Keaton in costume, I'd go with his 'last night out'. Picking up a gun wouldn't be the reason. I think having heart problems and struggling in combat, but but still managing to overcoming his enemies, would be sufficient. The remote control Batmobile coming in to save him would work well. How about it driving him back to the cave ala TDK Returns?

[The Joker]

I'm digging all of these ideas. I also prefer the Pre-Crisis Helena over the Post-Crisis version. I'm a huge fan of the Earth-Two canon in general, including the Bronze Age stories surrounding Bruce and Selina's marriage, Batman's death and the origins of the Huntress. If you look back over all of our features and discussions concerning the similarities between Burton's Batman and the comics, you'll see the Earth-Two stories get brought up time and time again. The similarities might be coincidental, but they exist all the same.

And yes, Bruce is unmasking to reveal his secret identity to Selina in that last panel, just like he does in the film.

Truly awesome stuff! Yeah, I am another big fan of the Pre-Crisis Earth-Two continuity, and wish DC would release more stuff focusing on that history in trade collections. Specifically Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman 1970's/1980's adventures of Earth-Two. I would purchase those in a heart beat.

I remember hoping, following Infinite Crisis, that we would get more of Earth-Two since it was basically brought back into having existed in the DC Universe, but other than the Superman/Batman #27 issue featuring a untold flashback tale, and JSA #85 (featuring a brief appearance of Earth-Two Batman), I don't recall DC Comics immediately following up on anything with Earth-Two characters for awhile.





If anything, I think anything related to Earth-Two was regulated to Power Girl. As I recall the story line where Kingdom Come Superman entered the main DC universe, she told him that he was literally a spitting image of her cousin, Kal-L. And speaking of Kal-L, there was that Blackest Night Superman 3-parter, but I don't recall that going over very well.

One of these days, I'll get around and purchase Brave and the Bold #200. As that comic featured the final appearance of the Joker from Earth-Two. I've never seen any scans of this appearance, but he's said to appear much more elderly than his appearances in the Huntress backup stories that originally were published in the Wonder Woman volume 1 title (if anyone ever finds a scan of this, shoot it my way). Thankfully, there's a trade released years ago that covers those early Helena Wayne adventures.

If Depp is going to be the new DCEU Joker, then does that mean Leto's out? Will Depp be playing a resurrected Jack Napier or a fusion of Nicholson and Leto's Jokers? The fusion angle seems plausible, since the Batman Beyond film will take place after the Burtonverse has merged with the DCEU in Flashpoint. Since the plot of Return of the Joker involves Tim Drake being possessed by the Joker's DNA, does that mean Depp will also be playing Drake or some other ally of Bruce's? I can imagine Depp being retroactively made the Robin of the Burtonverse, with flashbacks showing him and Keaton, digitally de-aged, working together after the events of Batman Returns. They could ditch the science fiction explanation from the original film and make it more supernatural; have it so that Depp is now the retired Dick Grayson/Nightwing who becomes possessed by the ghost of Nicholson's Joker. The idea of Dick becoming the new Joker would also reference The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

That's some very astute observations, and which make a ton of sense. If it were up to me, and when it comes right down to it, I would just go with the idea of a Napier/Grayson/Depp possession fusion, and forget about Leto's Joker. As there's only his appearance in Suicide Squad to consider, and even Birds of Prey seemed like an attempt, with the very little we actually see of Joker, to back away from the aesthetic appearance of Leto's Joker. As there were only got very quick shots of the back of his head during flashbacks, and both the Joker/Harley toon at the beginning of BOP, as well as the Joker drawing in Harley's apartment, honestly looked more like a classic comic book Joker than Ayer/Leto's interpretation.

I am not really sure where this leaves the Joker/Harley relationship with Flashpoint. If Burton's continuity is THE Batman continuity within the DCEU, with Nicholson's Joker (having been deceased for some time now) established as THE Joker in the DCEU, then the notion of a Joker/Harley relationship, as we've seen it within the DCEU, is now null and void.

  Considering the age gap, and time frame, it wouldn't make any sense. The whole psychiatrist backstory wouldn't be present, as Nicholson's Joker was never institutionalized. Thus, they never developed a twisted relationship, as depicted in Suicide Squad. They never broke up, as depicted in Birds, cause Joker had been deceased for decades.

I suppose one way to reconcile Harley's mere existence in the DCEU is to retcon her as a once-obsessive fan girl. As I am sure Nicholson's Joker would have had numerous books written about him, documentaries, movies, ect due to being a prolific and terrifying mob boss in Gotham during his reign, but that obviously changes the Joker/Harley dynamic quite a bit. A dramatic change for sure, akin to how the cancelled "Batman Unchained" was going to depict Harley Quinn as Napier's daughter.

I'm siding with the Helena Wayne at the moment, and with your idea of a rocky relationship between Bruce and Selina. That seems more likely between these two, and would contrast against the happily ever after that Nolan went with. Beyond made Bruce a father, so mirroring that here wouldn't hurt. It would make Batgirl's training more meaningful. Perhaps Selina doesn't agree with the training, but comes to accept it. Something along those lines would be interesting to explore. Michelle would accept an invitation to return, I'm sure.

Thanks, TDK. Honestly, I think you previously stated in this thread the idea of a version of Batgirl appearing, but not necessarily Barbara, that got the wheels spinning on the possibility of getting a worthwhile cinematic version of the Helena Wayne. In keeping with that, theoretically, a Helena Wayne Batgirl would keep Batman's presence within the DCEU long after a future exit from keaton. Especially on a deep personal level, as it was depicted that Helena truly loved and honored her father (and even thought of the Pre-Crisis Batman of Earth-1 as an Uncle).

The Jokerz would be fitting for a Burton film given B89 and BR both feature clown gangs. I recall there was a planned headline of some sort stating JOKER'S BODY MISSING. I'm not sure how supernatural Burton would be willing to go, but I feel that's a possible option to open the door for Depp, or whoever plays the role. Burton's original sketch for the character could also be used.

Very true. If Burton and Depp come on board, I would personally love it if Burton would politely ask Depp to have a conversation with Jack Nicholson, and pick his brain about the Joker's character. Course, Johnny Depp needs to bring his own qualities to the part, and not just be a carbon copy, but I would like to see some call backs in terms of dress style, personality and such. Actually, I think I would loose my s**t if there's a couple of scenes, or at the very least, one scene where Nicholson's voice literally comes out of Depp's Joker ("Ever Dance with the Devil by the Pale Moonlight?" being the most obvious choice). To further illustrate the angle of supernatural possession, and/or possibly to really wreck Bruce, in addition to further amusing himself, if the Batcave attack is adapted from BBROTJ.

[The Dark Knight]

Based on what colors and SN have said, I've concluded the words of these YouTubers have merit. With such a film, I don't think all of our desires can be fulfilled. Knox could be a real possibility, given Wahul's recent appearance. But even if people like Billy Dee Williams don't appear in the flesh, it would be great to have some kind of reference or background visual cameo to them. The past 30 years could be filled in with tie-in comics.

If the B89 Wayne Manor is used, it would be great to see that version's secret batcave entrance, opposed to the iron maiden. Which would also retroactively apply to B89 as well - we just didn't see it then. I think using the B89 world would make a lot of sense if the Joker's return is a key part of that. Imagine a Depp Joker walking through the Cathedral, tracing old steps and encountering Batgirl, or whoever the mentee is.

Ideally Keaton's suit would more or less resemble what he wore in the original two films. There can be modifications of course, but that's what the fans identity with. I'm open to a Kingdom Come type design, though - I'd just like to see those classic suits somewhere, even if just in storage.

Very true. If Burton and Depp come on board, I would personally love it if Burton would politely ask Depp to have a conversation with Jack Nicholson, and pick his brain about the Joker's character. Course, Johnny Depp needs to bring his own qualities to the part, and not just be a carbon copy, but I would like to see some call backs in terms of dress style, personality and such. Actually, I think I would loose my s**t if there's a couple of scenes, or at the very least, one scene where Nicholson's voice literally comes out of Depp's Joker ("Ever Dance with the Devil by the Pale Moonlight?" being the most obvious choice). To further illustrate the angle of supernatural possession, and/or possibly to really wreck Bruce, in addition to further amusing himself, if the Batcave attack is adapted from BBROTJ.

Great minds think alike - a Nicholson voice cameo would be perfect. Even if it's not pure reality, but Bruce's own perception of the moment, or simple audience misdirection. Much like Christopher Lee's Saruman voice appearing at the beginning of Gandalf the White's return in The Two Towers.