Daredevil (2003) Comic Influences

[The Joker]

Honestly, same. It was a vivid time. I saw it on opening day in a mid-afternoon showing with my (now ex) gf.

It was a good day. We saw the movie, had dinner, did Valentinesy stuff. The movie was the start of my fandom for Evanescence as well.

Cool story. Thanks for sharing that, and I appreciate it. Yes, similar circumstances with me and Daredevil (2003) as well. In your case it was decidedly more romantic, where in my situation it was kinda of a 'blind date'/'double date' deal that my buddy set up. The girl was attractive enough, but generally speaking, wasn't my type. However, it didn't defer us from making a night out of it. Following the movie, we had a late dinner, and then decided to head over to a local bowling alley for 'cosmic bowling'. So pretty much, the date didn't really conclude until 2am (cosmic bowling hours usually are 12am-2am here) that night. I must have gotten home around 3am before it was all said and done. Pretty fun night all in all, but no real romance to speak of.

There is an addendum to my Daredevil (2003) story though. Around April that year, I dated a girl I was way more attracted to, and it was much more, shall we say, erogenous than my one-off blind date experience in Feb with Daredevil. With this ex, I remember our first date was checking out "X2: X-Men United", and then later, "Matrix Reloaded" (with the latter, we ended up going to a late 9pm-10pm screening, and upon looking for seats, ran into three of my friends who just coincidentally happened to be there). Anyways, by July, we were broken up. I won't get into specifics, but the relationship burned bright, and quickly burned out as well. When Daredevil hit DVD (I had to look it up but it was late July of that year), I remember going to Wal-Mart really late at night (12am or probably even later), purchasing the DVD, and ending up watching the movie in my room that night, in a melancholic mood, in the dark, with a bowl of cereal (along with all the great extras on disc 2). Haha.

For the rest of that year, the Daredevil (2003) DVD would wind up being one of those movies I would have playing on the TV in the background a lot (for noise), even if I wasn't keenly watching the movie at the time (sometimes I would, sometimes not). But I got pretty familiar with it, and I admittedly have a personal affection towards the movie. Even if it's more pertaining to those vivid experiences/memories by association, than the actual film itself. Although I like it well enough, and always have. 

Plus, I never disliked the film. Sure, the Netflix show is better. But the movie is still decent enough for me. My affection for the movie doesn't come purely from what a good day I had going to see it.

Agree on both counts.

But yes, it is a strange fate to be in higher anticipation of Ben Affleck's next outing as Daredevil than Charlie Cox's. How did things ever get this far??

"Strange days indeed." - John Lennon. 

[The Laughing Fish]

I think Garner's Elektra was the weakest link in the 2003 film. The film was already busy as is, and I would've had her entire cut out, plus her arc was rushed further as soon as she gets stabbed by Bullseye.

Daredevil 2003 is okay. I think it has a lot of visuals and aerial camera shots that get used quite often in comic book films that came after it, and I think Matt Murdock's arc from flawed, lethal killer to redeemed hero (very similar to Batfleck's arc in BvS) is what saves the film. In addition to Elektra being shoehorned, the film just needed a more consistent tone. Sometimes it went from gritty to aping the light-hearted moments of Raimi's Spider-Man.  Still, it's a much better alternative than most of Marvel's stuff nowadays.

As for Garner and (presumably) Affleck coming back? It would've grabbed my interest, but I'm not thrilled about Deadpool as a character nowadays, and the last thing I want to see Daredevil getting stuck in the middle of that tired meta humour formula.

[thecolorsblend]

I do think introducing Elektra in the first movie and saving the Last Hand/Daredevil #181 stuff for a possible sequel would've given the first film a lot more focus.

The film could've focused on Daredevil/Murdock dealing with the Kingpin, Bullseye and the Coolio trial in the first movie to clarify his character arc.

Hindsight is 20/20. But when people say the film is too busy, yeah, there's no denying that. Still, I think it's interesting that the main criticism is the film has too many good characters, too many good storylines, etc.

[The Joker]

In some ways, Daredevil (2003) reminds me of how Warren Beatty approached Dick Tracy back in 1990. Sure, there were plenty of nods, but it's also discernible that the idea was basically, "Let's try and get as much as we can in, cause we don't know if we'll be making another one!".

With Dick Tracy, it was more about throwing in as many of his rogues gallery into the movie as possible. With Daredevil, as already stated, the decision to try and squeeze in by establishing Matt's origin, Daredevil as a crime fighter, Kingpin as the antagonist, Elektra's saga, Bullseye as a villainous rival, Ben Urich's investigation, the Coolio subplot, ect was a gutsy undertaking. Even if the execution wasn't always satisfying, it's commendable it turned out as good as it did. Especially the Director's Cut.

The early-mid Marvel comic book movie boom had no formulaic approach and brand to go by, it was a time of experimentation. Trial by error essentially.

[Kamdan]

In some ways, Daredevil (2003) reminds me of how Warren Beatty approached Dick Tracy back in 1990. Sure, there were plenty of nods, but it's also discernible that the idea was basically, "Let's try and get as much as we can in, cause we don't know if we'll be making another one!".

With Dick Tracy, it was more about throwing in as many of his rogues gallery into the movie as possible. With Daredevil, as already stated, the decision to try and squeeze in by establishing Matt's origin, Daredevil as a crime fighter, Kingpin as the antagonist, Elektra's saga, Bullseye as a villainous rival, Ben Urich's investigation, the Coolio subplot, ect was a gutsy undertaking. Even if the execution wasn't always satisfying, it's commendable it turned out as good as it did. Especially the Director's Cut.

The early-mid Marvel comic book movie boom had no formulaic approach and brand to go by, it was a time of experimentation. Trial by error essentially.

Ooh, I always love a conversation involving Dick Tracy as that's been my main area of research. It is true that they did indeed include a lot of characters in that film but the beauty of having a comic strip that ran for over a half a centenary at the time it was released was that was just a taste of who could appear in subsequent follow ups. Max Allan Collins was able to carry on with new villains in his follow ups to his novelization that could have gone on further if he wasn't let go from his writing position for the comic strip.

The deal with Daredevil was that it seemed like the filmmakers were set on adapting the Frank Miller run of the character as that was deemed to be the definitive take on the character and that made it much easier and condensed to tell the story they wanted to tell. I do remember thinking after I first saw this film was who or what could be included in a sequel as this one seemed self contained and didn't know any Daredevil villains that could succeed Kingpin, Bullseye or Electra. It all seemed fitting as Affleck made that after-mentioned humiliation quote about doing Daredevil. I hope one day he will address that and just say he was just full of himself back then, because it was a point of contention when he excepted the role of Batman, and pretty much showed that he should've followed his own advice if he wanted to avoid being humiliated, which did happen once Batman v. Superman wasn't the critical success I'm sure he thought it would get.

In both cases of Dick Tracy and Daredevil, the idea of consolidating everything into one film paid off as the sequel prospects didn't pay off.

[The Joker]

On the topic of what villains could have possibly been used in a sequel to Daredevil 2003, I vaguely remember, prior to the film being released, reading somewhere (probably Wizard magazine), that Gladiator was being considered. Not sure if this notion was really being considered, if even briefly, or it was just a case of Wizard speculating.

I'll respond to the Dick Tracy stuff over in the Dick Tracy thread, Kamdan. Don't really want to derail the Daredevil thread.   

[Silver Nemesis]

Over the past week I've been watching some Young Indiana Jones episodes and The Boondock Saints movies, and I'm now convinced that Sean Patrick Flanery would've been the perfect actor to have played Matt Murdock in the 2000s. He'd definitely have been my top pick.

Matt's usually drawn as having a mixture of tough and vulnerable facial characteristics. Depending on his expression, he can look like a soft pretty boy or a hardened badass. Charlie Cox has the right look, and so does Flanery. He's a solid actor, is the same height as the comic book Daredevil (5'11), has an athletic physique, and is authentic Irish-American. He has a cocky smirk that's ideal for Matt and he would've been the right age at the time.

He can also fight – he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, runs his own martial arts dojo and even competed in the 2003 American National IBJJF Jiu-jitsu Championship where he placed first in his division. On a technical level, his Indiana Jones was a more skilful fighter than the older version played by Ford.

Flanery should've played Daredevil in the 2003 movie. He wasn't as big a name as Affleck was at the time, but he was infinitely better suited to the role. Visually, watching him go up against Michael Clarke Duncan's Fisk would've more accurately reflected the David and Goliath dynamic of the Daredevil vs. Kingpin battles in the comics.

On the topic of what villains could have possibly been used in a sequel to Daredevil 2003, I vaguely remember, prior to the film being released, reading somewhere (probably Wizard magazine), that Gladiator was being considered. Not sure if this notion was really being considered, if even briefly, or it was just a case of Wizard speculating.

I'm sure Fisk would've returned. If Mark Steven Johnson had followed through on his plan to adapt Born Again, he could've easily mixed it with Ann Nocenti's original Typhoid Mark arc. Both stories involve Fisk orchestrating campaigns to break Daredevil mentally and physically, with Matt having to endure the ordeal and pull himself back together. Typhoid would've offered a new love interest to replace Elektra, as well as a secondary villain-turned-antihero to fit the post-Matrix nougthies female action hero role (leather pants, tank top, etc).

As for who could've played Mary, my pick would've been Lara Flynn Boyle. Her popularity peaked in the early nineties thanks to Twin Peaks and Wayne's World, but she was still a big enough name in the noughties to play the main villain in Men in Black II (2002). I've long suspected that Alex Maleev modelled his drawings of Mary Walker on her. Check out the following comparisons to see what I mean.

Mary's multiple personality disorder would've fit the trend of psychologically-complex movies like Fight Club, Memento, Mulholland Drive and Secret Window. She's one of the most psychologically-layered villains in comics (Harvey Dent has two personalities, Mary's got four). I think audiences would've welcomed that at the time. So Typhoid and Kingpin would've been my picks for the villains in Daredevil II.

I don't think the Hand would've appeared, simply because they were already used in the Elektra movie. And before anyone says, "But Typhoid Mary also appeared in Elektra" – Nah, she didn't. That character wasn't Mary Walker. She was a lame Poison Ivy rip-off who just happened to be called Typhoid. Aside from working with the Hand, she had nothing in common with her namesake from the comics.

[thecolorsblend]

I always thought that in live action, Typhoid Mary should have all of her alters on the screen simultaneously... which even 2000's technology would've easily allowed. Having the same actress playing the alters at once would've been fun.

Plus, you could always guess which alter is steering the ship based on who's talking in the scene.

Handled properly, this could've been very effective. Plus, it would've been very different from what contemporaneous comic book films were doing. As powerful as Willem DaFoe talking to himself in a mirror might be, having all Typhoid Mary's alters onscreen simultaneously arguing with each other (or whatever) would've been a good way to differentiate the Typhoid Mary character from the Green Goblin.

And Boyle would've been a great choice for that. But she did spend part of her career looking down her nose at big Hollywood blockbusters, so it's anybody's guess if she would've accepted the role.

[Silver Nemesis]

Go the Multiplicity route? That would've been interesting.

I'd have started the film with Mary Walker and Typhoid presented as too distinct characters appearing in separate scenes. You'd only glimpse Typhoid in the shadows, or with the painted side of her face to the camera, so that casual cinemagoers wouldn't recognise her as the same actress playing Mary. Obviously she'd have to use two different voices to differentiate between them.

As in the comics, Mary would start finding creepy notes left around her apartment by Typhoid telling her to stay away from Murdock or she'll kill him. Daredevil could have his first violent encounter with Typhoid without realising she's Mary. About a third of the way into the movie there'd be a scene where we seen both Mary and Typhoid on camera at the same time. They have a tense conversation where Typhoid holds a blade to Mary's throat. At this point casual cinemagoers would still think they're two separate characters.

Mary would ask Matt to protect her from Typhoid, and Matt would agree, still not realising they're the same woman. In Born Again Fisk had Matt's house blown up, and in the movie I'd make Typhoid the one who did it. You could have a close-up shot of her lips as she whispers "Burn", then cut to a shot of the incendiary device igniting before cutting back to a close-up of her lips smiling.

By this point Fisk would have found a way of driving a wedge between Matt and Foggy, so Matt would go to Mary's apartment looking for help. But before he gets there we'd have a scene of Mary and Typhoid arguing intensely. Typhoid again holds a blade to Mary's throat, and as Matt enters the room we switch to his POV. It's then that we see Mary standing side-on holding the blade to her own throat. Matt asks what she's doing, and as she turns towards him we see the other half of her face covered in white make-up. It's then that the audience would realise Mary and Typhoid are one and the same. There could even be a Fight Club-style flashback where we revisit the earlier scenes between the two women, only we now see Mary talking to herself. We'd also see Matt's sonar view of Mary as her outline and heartbeat change when she switches to Typhoid.

Capitalising on Matt's confusion, Blood Mary could take over and unleash a brutal beat down on Daredevil that leaves him burnt and bloodied. He manages to escape, but is now wandering the streets, homeless, injured and heartbroken. Typhoid reports the success of her mission to Fisk, who smiles at the thought of his enemy's humiliation. Meanwhile Matt collapses in an alleyway next to a church, where he's found by a mysterious nun...

Born Again's theme of betrayal could be transferred from Karen to Mary (the movie Kingpin already knows Matt is Daredevil, so the drug storyline isn't needed), and just as Karen tried to help Matt in the second half of the comic, Mary could have a redemptive arc in the movie where she gains control over Typhoid and Bloody Mary in order to help Matt defeat Fisk. Just when it seems that she and Daredevil are on the same side, Kingpin would throw them a curve ball during the final showdown by uttering the codeword that triggers Mary's fourth personality.

Yep, a Daredevil II based on the Born Again and Typhoid Mary arcs could've been awesome.

[thecolorsblend]

I think a challenge with Typhoid Mary has always been the number of alters she has. I've wondered if it would confuse audiences.

Now, I think audiences can get their collective head around Good Alter and Evil Alter. But of course, Typhoid Mary isn't quite that simple.

So, it becomes of question of whether you adapt potentially challenging (and deal-breaking) material or do you simplify it?

My workaround for it would've been showing only Mary and Typhoid while raising the question if other alters might also exist.

Something that challenges my thesis is Split. The Beast is clearly the villainous character but Hedwig, Patricia, Dennis and other alters are clearly on his side too. And nobody seemed too confused by that.