A World of Gothic Horror: The Problem With Modern Batman Stories

[thecolorsblend]

The commentary on how under-used the classic rogues are is worth it alone.

I must say, I tuned out of Batman comics a long time ago. Denny O'Neil once said that Batman has not become a bad character. Merely that he has "evolved beyond my [O'Neil's] sensibility". I feel much the same. My era of Batman pretty much concluded with Hush. That's Batman's series finale afaic.

However, the YouTuber comments extensively on the pre-2002 era as well and I must say that I can't disagree with him too much.

Interested to hear y'all's thoughts, particularly SN.

[The Dark Knight]

Morrison and Snyder's runs are good, and they're a large chunk of what has been the modern Batman. But that time is now over.

King dropped the ball, but I have to say The War of Jokes and Riddles was a nice surprise. Two of the best villains in the roster (Bane is in that conversation with me too) going at it, with the emotional depth of Kiteman and Bruce's narration to Selina. I don't know about anyone else but it clicked with me. I found it very cinematic and wouldn't be averse to having a live action translation of some elements, such as the dinner at Wayne Manor.

I find the White Knight and Earth One universes interesting (hurry up with Earth One Vol 3 already), and the art from Damned alone puts it in my good books. I'm eager to see how Three Jokers turns out.

So all in all, I feel there has been enough modern comic content worthy of my time, and with future projects still on my radar. The King era largely put the character in a bland and forgettable wilderness though, and I'm not that familiar with the new direction as yet.

[Silver Nemesis]

Funnily enough, I just discovered this guy's YouTube page last month, and this was one of the first videos of his that I watched. His content is articulate and well edited, and he's chosen some interesting subjects to highlight. Unlike many YouTubers, he doesn't limit his analyses to film and TV, but also addresses art and literature. I'm looking forward to seeing more of his videos in the future.

Regarding his Batman vid, I thought it was an enjoyable retrospective on the character's history that makes some valid points. This chap has clearly done his research, and it shows. Unfortunately he does rather fall into the trap of overstating Miller's importance at the expense of earlier writers such as Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil and Steve Englehart, but then so does practically every article or video summarising the history of the character. I was also surprised that 'Dark Knight, Dark City' (Batman Vol 1 #452-454, August-September 1990) didn't get a mention, since it's a good example of a story that is both gothic and Riddler-centric. But overall, a very enjoyable video deserving of a thumbs up.

The creator asserts that the decade between 1986 and 1996 was the prime era of the Batman comics, and there's a strong argument to support this. Personally, I'd go a bit broader and say the prime era was the thirty year period between the publication of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge!' in September 1973 and the conclusion of Hush in September 2003. The era between 1973 and 1986 encompasses classic Bronze Age comics like Denny O'Neil's early Ra's al Ghul saga, Strange Apparitions/Dark Detective I, The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne, The Untold Legend of the Batman, Only Legends Live Forever, and far too many great standalone issues to list. The period between 1996 and 2003 includes stories like Dark Victory, Crimson Mist, Prodigal, No Man's Land, Bane of the Demon, Ego, JLA Tower of Babel, Child of Dreams and Hush.

Obviously many classic stories were published before and after these periods, but I reckon the time between '73 and '03 was the prime era, with '86-'96 representing the apex. As for the more recent comics, I enjoyed both Morrison's run – especially Batman and Robin Vol 1 – and Snyder's. I've fallen behind on King's run and need to do a catch-up at some point. But I do agree with the point made in the video about the bat-family needing to be streamlined. The number of Batman-themed titles in general needs streamlining. How many comics are published each month that regularly feature either A) Batman, B) a member of the bat-family or C) one of his foes? As of my writing this, the following titles are all currently in print:

1.   Batgirl Vol 5
2.   Batman Vol 3
3.   Batman: Curse of the White Knight Vol 1
4.   Batman/Superman Vol 2
5.   Batman and the Outsiders Vol 3
6.   Batman Beyond Vol 6
7.   Batman vs. Ra's al Ghul Vol 1
8.   Catwoman Vol 5
9.   Detective Comics Vol 1
10.   Gotham City Monsters Vol 1
11.   Harley Quinn Vol 3
12.   Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy Vol 1
13.   Joker: Killer Smile Vol 1
14.   Justice League Vol 4
15.   Nightwing Vol 4
16.   Red Hood and the Outsiders Vol 2
17.   The Batman's Grave Vol 1
18.   Young Justice Vol 3

There might be others I've overlooked, and this list doesn't include titles like Scooby-Doo, Where Are You? in which Batman often makes guest appearances. But even so, this is pretty excessive. The fact so many of Batman's villains are appearing in spinoffs may account for why they so infrequently star in major storylines in the mainstay titles. Scrapping all the spinoff comics starring Batman villains and restricting their appearances to the mainstay titles might be a good way to start correcting things. And while they're at it, DC should pull the plug on all the poor quality TV shows that currently feature Batman characters. They're devaluing the brand through oversaturation.

[thecolorsblend]

Funnily enough, I just discovered this guy's YouTube page last month, and this was one of the first videos of his that I watched. His content is articulate and well edited, and he's chosen some interesting subjects to highlight. Unlike many YouTubers, he doesn't limit his analyses to film and TV, but also addresses art and literature. I'm looking forward to seeing more of his videos in the future.

Regarding his Batman vid, I thought it was an enjoyable retrospective on the character's history that makes some valid points. This chap has clearly done his research, and it shows. Unfortunately he does rather fall into the trap of overstating Miller's importance at the expense of earlier writers such as Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil and Steve Englehart, but then so does practically every article or video summarising the history of the character. I was also surprised that 'Dark Knight, Dark City' (Batman Vol 1 #452-454, August-September 1990) didn't get a mention, since it's a good example of a story that is both gothic and Riddler-centric. But overall, a very enjoyable video deserving of a thumbs up.

The creator asserts that the decade between 1986 and 1996 was the prime era of the Batman comics, and there's a strong argument to support this. Personally, I'd go a bit broader and say the prime era was the thirty year period between the publication of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge!' in September 1973 and the conclusion of Hush in September 2003. The era between 1973 and 1986 encompasses classic Bronze Age comics like Denny O'Neil's early Ra's al Ghul saga, Strange Apparitions/Dark Detective I, The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne, The Untold Legend of the Batman, Only Legends Live Forever, and far too many great standalone issues to list. The period between 1996 and 2003 includes stories like Dark Victory, Crimson Mist, Prodigal, No Man's Land, Bane of the Demon, Ego, JLA Tower of Babel, Child of Dreams and Hush.

Obviously many classic stories were published before and after these periods, but I reckon the time between '73 and '03 was the prime era, with '86-'96 representing the apex. As for the more recent comics, I enjoyed both Morrison's run – especially Batman and Robin Vol 1 – and Snyder's. I've fallen behind on King's run and need to do a catch-up at some point. But I do agree with the point made in the video about the bat-family needing to be streamlined. The number of Batman-themed titles in general needs streamlining. How many comics are published each month that regularly feature either A) Batman, B) a member of the bat-family or C) one of his foes? As of my writing this, the following titles are all currently in print:

1.   Batgirl Vol 5
2.   Batman Vol 3
3.   Batman: Curse of the White Knight Vol 1
4.   Batman/Superman Vol 2
5.   Batman and the Outsiders Vol 3
6.   Batman Beyond Vol 6
7.   Batman vs. Ra's al Ghul Vol 1
8.   Catwoman Vol 5
9.   Detective Comics Vol 1
10.   Gotham City Monsters Vol 1
11.   Harley Quinn Vol 3
12.   Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy Vol 1
13.   Joker: Killer Smile Vol 1
14.   Justice League Vol 4
15.   Nightwing Vol 4
16.   Red Hood and the Outsiders Vol 2
17.   The Batman's Grave Vol 1
18.   Young Justice Vol 3

There might be others I've overlooked, and this list doesn't include titles like Scooby-Doo, Where Are You? in which Batman often makes guest appearances. But even so, this is pretty excessive. The fact so many of Batman's villains are appearing in spinoffs may account for why they so infrequently star in major storylines in the mainstay titles. Scrapping all the spinoff comics starring Batman villains and restricting their appearances to the mainstay titles might be a good way to start correcting things. And while they're at it, DC should pull the plug on all the poor quality TV shows that currently feature Batman characters. They're devaluing the brand through oversaturation.

Can't remember if I ever said so here but a few years ago, I thought the comic book industry could still be saved. My prescription for doing so was a borderline sadistic cutting of titles. Stick to the main meat of things. One Superman title: Action Comics. One Batman title: Detective Comics. One Green Lantern title: specifically, starring Hal Jordan. The Flash, starring Barry Allen. And no other hero titles, at least for a while.

Since this is a Batman forum tho... I figured streamlining Batman's supporting cast was the only logical thing to do. Bruce has a prominent role and Alfred has one too. Apart from them, other characters like Gordon and so forth only pop up as needed. No sidekicks. At all. Don't even mention them. And no new villains created for at least two years. Instead, tell stories about Batman going up against villains who have existed for at least forty years.

It sounds naive now. And at this point, there are a lot of reasons why the comic book industry is beyond saving. But I am convinced, however, that the above steps, while painful, would have done a lot to help DC in the long run. We'll never know.

[The Dark Knight]

The fact so many of Batman's villains are appearing in spinoffs may account for why they so infrequently star in major storylines in the mainstay titles. Scrapping all the spinoff comics starring Batman villains and restricting their appearances to the mainstay titles might be a good way to start correcting things. And while they're at it, DC should pull the plug on all the poor quality TV shows that currently feature Batman characters. They're devaluing the brand through oversaturation.

There's a lot of fat to be trimmed with all these spinoffs, that's for sure. Who reads all this stuff? I have to imagine the market for Harley comics is niche and not really worth bothering about, but it's persisted with because girl power. They'd be better placed focusing on the main Batman line and Elseworlds stuff like White Knight.

I haven't watched Gotham (I think I've only seen the pilot, but that was years ago), and didn't really give it a chance. But the general consensus that I've skimmed doesn't seem all that bad. That show at least integrates a version of Bruce Wayne, Alfred and origin stories for the villains. I'll have to give it a binge watch to decide for myself.  Stuff like Pennyworth is irrelevant and way too removed from the mythos we all care about (Bruce and the Gotham underbelly) and shouldn't have even been made. Batwoman is also trash and it's something I ignore, and wish it didn't exist.

[thecolorsblend]

The fact so many of Batman's villains are appearing in spinoffs may account for why they so infrequently star in major storylines in the mainstay titles. Scrapping all the spinoff comics starring Batman villains and restricting their appearances to the mainstay titles might be a good way to start correcting things. And while they're at it, DC should pull the plug on all the poor quality TV shows that currently feature Batman characters. They're devaluing the brand through oversaturation.

There's a lot of fat to be trimmed with all these spinoffs, that's for sure. Who reads all this stuff? I have to imagine the market for Harley comics is niche and not really worth bothering about, but it's persisted with because girl power. They'd be better placed focusing on the main Batman line and Elseworlds stuff like White Knight.

I haven't watched Gotham (I think I've only seen the pilot, but that was years ago), and didn't really give it a chance. But the general consensus that I've skimmed doesn't seem all that bad. That show at least integrates a version of Bruce Wayne, Alfred and origin stories for the villains. I'll have to give it a binge watch to decide for myself.  Stuff like Pennyworth is irrelevant and way too removed from the mythos we all care about (Bruce and the Gotham underbelly) and shouldn't have even been made. Batwoman is also trash and it's something I ignore, and wish it didn't exist.

The Harley stuff mystifies me too. It's primarily aimed at tween girls. The problem, as you say, is that it's a very niche market.

But on top of that, it's a very transient market. My step daughter went through a phase where she was obsessed with all things Harley, couldn't get enough. But then she got enough. The whole process lasted maybe four or five months and she hasn't looked back since. My understanding is that her fixation is just about average for tween girls being in love with Harley. It burns brightly but also burns briefly. You no sooner develop an audience than you effectively have to develop a completely new audience from the ground up.

Meanwhile, older male readers will commit to characters like Daredevil or Batman, stick with them through thick and thin and FOLLOW THEM. And to be fair, it's not like that demographic is getting ignored. Far from it. But they're not necessarily catered to either.

Before the industry unofficially died, DC refused to accept the obvious about tween girls. Bizarre, really.

[The Dark Knight]

Meanwhile, older male readers will commit to characters like Daredevil or Batman, stick with them through thick and thin and FOLLOW THEM. And to be fair, it's not like that demographic is getting ignored. Far from it. But they're not necessarily catered to either.

It's like what you said about seeing B89 for the first time. A deep connection is made and you just know it's never going to be broken. If you didn't devote hours of screen time to something as a child or young adult, but catch up on it years later, the strength of that bond just isn't going to be the same. Familiarity is everything, otherwise it's just a phase.

Such as me with Ghostbusters. I like the films well enough, but am I going to build a collection and geek out on every single detail? No, because it hasn't been a big focus of mine since childhood. Batman and James Bond were my two huge passions. I can't estimate how many hours I've spent watching those films. Turning my back on those properties now would be like murdering part of my soul.

We know the characters are fictional, but their spirit makes them become like treasured friends. I think it could be our younger male selves see aspirational traits that perhaps just aren't as strong with female viewers and female characters. What fascinates us as children continues to fascinate us as adults.

I don't like what the new Spider-Man films are about, but deep down I'm still a fan of the brand. The Raimi films remind me of a nostalgic time in my life. I just need to hear Elfman's soundtracks and I'm there again. I connect with the struggling man who keeps going despite his depression. What lessons and morals do characters like Harley impart? Telling dumb jokes and running around being silly? Those types of characters were never designed to be solo stars. They're bit pieces. Harley herself is a sugar hit who eventually tires herself out and needs to take a break, I think much like her audience.