Spider-Man 2 (2004) Comic Influences

[Kamdan]

You've got a point about M.J., but I disagree about SM2 being a bad adaptation of 'Spider-Man No More!' In the movie Peter didn't resume being Spider-Man for Mary Jane's sake. Quite the opposite. He'd already decided to resume being Spider-Man before she was kidnapped by Doc Ock, and this was prompted by a combination of his experience saving the child from the burning building (which is the film's true equivalent of the scene in the comic where he rescues the man on the rooftop) and the talk Aunt May gave him about the need for self-sacrificing heroes. He then lied to M.J. about not loving her, because by that point he had chosen to prioritise his vocation as Spider-Man over the possibility of a life with the woman he loved. By the end of the movie Peter had faced up to his responsibilities as a hero and reconciled the different aspects of his life, which is what 'Spider-Man No More!' is all about.

You left out the parts where Peter is discouraged from his heroic acts when he overhears that someone else in the building died. It was further insulting when the little girl ends up saving Peter from falling. He's not encouraged to be Spider-Man after the talk with Aunt May. It just perpetuated another comedy scene of him losing his power. He's not persuaded to get his costume back until Mary Jane is kidnapped who shares no thought or concern when he makes himself available for her. These problems were not in the original Spider-Man No More story. They were added just to show that Peter is a glutton for punishment, which Rami bathes him in for this movie. Makes it more Darkman than Spider-Man.

And I'm pretty sure he was shown to derive satisfaction from helping people other than M.J. The very last scene shows him swinging off to assist the emergency services, yelling "Yahoo!" as he goes. It's pretty clear he's come to terms with his dual life by this point and is starting to enjoy being Spider-Man again.

No, he was just happy that after all of that moping and sulking, he finally got what he wanted... Mary Jane Watson's affections. As we learn in the next movie, it wasn't worth the effort with her inability to relate with other people's problems and unfaithfulness to who she's with.

As for letting the guy get mugged, that's no worse than the original comic where he allowed Kingpin to conduct a crime wave across the city without lifting a finger to help. In the film he was at least haunted by his decision, while in the comic he took a far more insouciant attitude towards the armed robberies that were occurring on his watch.

There was a touch of this when he was eating that hot dog bun (no meat was obviously in it) when he saw that police car drive by. Seeing officers heading to a crime is one thing, but seeing it happen in the open without anyone else around to handle it is another.

I agree with you about M.J. getting engaged to John while stringing Peter along. Her actions at the end of the movie, where she jilts John at the altar, are also extremely selfish. But that's just her characterisation and doesn't make it a bad film for me.

It matters a lot to me when they outright said in the first film "this like any story worth telling is all about a girl." It was also jarring how they made it pretty clear that Mary Jane realized Peter was Spider-Man at the end of the first movie and they completely ignored that in the second with her acting surprised that he was him despite all of the obvious indications.

M.J. getting kidnapped again is one of the issues I have with SM3's final act, but there are other larger problems as well. I think the film is fine up to and including the scene where Peter returns the engagement ring to Aunt May. Following this, there's a sequence of events that is so condensed it almost feels as if the DVD is skipping several chapters. In order for the finale to take place, Peter has to acquire the following pieces of important information:

•   Marko is still alive
•   The Symbiote is also still active
•   There's a new villain in the city called Venom
•   Sandman and Venom have teamed up
•   Mary Jane has been kidnapped... again
•   The villains have issued a public challenge to Spider-Man

And how does Peter come into possession of these facts? He sees them summarised for him in a news report as he's walking past a shop window. This is condensed storytelling at its laziest. The whole sequence where Venom teams up with Sandman is missing too many things. When Marko first becomes Sandman we're treated to a beautiful sequence where we see him adapt to his powers. There's no equivalent scene for Brock. We see the Symbiote envelop him, and then suddenly he's fully formed as Venom. We never see him learning to use his powers or adapting to the suit. We never see the connection established between Brock's mind and that of the Symbiote. And when Venom first encounters Sandman, the latter barely reacts to seeing an alien monster slobber in his face. He just turns his back on him and walks away. It all feels too rushed.

Then there's the equally awkward plot device of the Osborn butler revealing the truth about Norman's death to Harry. It hadn't even been established prior to this scene that the butler knew about Norman and Harry's double life. And if he did know, why did he wait until this point to tell Harry a truth that might have spared him so much pain? And his testimony doesn't actually exonerate Peter anyway. So Norman was killed with his own glider – how do Harry and his butler know that Spider-Man didn't use the glider to stab Norman? Again, it's all about repositioning the characters so they can rush to the finale. The film needed at least another 30-40 minutes to set up the final act. Or better yet, they could have split the movie in two.

The only other major problem I have with the rest of the film is that there are too many characters. Gwen Stacy and her father could easily have been cut. Both were underwritten and neither portrayal did justice to the source material (that's the fault of the writing, not the actors). Gwen serves two important functions in the plot: firstly to make M.J. jealous, and secondly to break up with Brock in order to increase his resentment towards Peter. Both of these functions could have been served by Betty Brant. They'd already established Brant as a character in the first two films, and both Brock and Peter are shown flirting with her in SM3. That would have streamlined things quite a bit.

But for every negative thing I could say about SM3, there are plenty of positives. I was very disappointed by it when it first came out. But now, after seeing what the subsequent Spider-Man films were like, I think Raimi's third movie has aged pretty well.

You can blame Bryce Dallas Howard for all of this. Her being pregnant (and not realizing until filming) caused a major shift in the storyline. Mary Jane wasn't supposed to be kidnapped. It was supposed to be Gwen Stacy, which actually made sense since Eddie Brock had his eyes on her. Mary Jane was also supposed to convince Harry Osborn to forgive Peter and join him in the fight instead of the butler.

[Silver Nemesis]

You left out the parts where Peter is discouraged from his heroic acts when he overhears that someone else in the building died.

Your reading of that scene is the complete opposite of mine. As I see it, Peter reacted with guilt when he learned of the resident's death. It didn't discourage him from being a hero; it discouraged him from continuing with his retirement. That's why in the very next scene he's questioning his future. The death of the building's occupant was one of the catalysts that prompted him to rethink his life's trajectory and resume his career as Spider-Man. At least that's my understanding of the sequence.

It was further insulting when the little girl ends up saving Peter from falling.

I doubt that little girl was able to lift Peter's bodyweight on her own. Sure, she was trying to help him, but I think that was more of a cute visual detail on Raimi's part than a literal explanation for how Peter pulled himself up on to the burning landing. Ultimately Peter helped himself during that scene and saved the little girl's life in the bargain. And he did it at a time when he'd lost his super powers, which makes it all the more heroic for him to endanger his life in the first place.

That entire sequence provides a sobering counterpoint to the tenement fire scene in the previous film. In the first movie Spider-Man casually leaps in through an upstairs window and gets the baby out without singeing a nostril hair. In the second film he almost breaks his shoulder trying to knock down a door, fails to leap across the gap on the landing and almost suffocates from smoke inhalation. In the first movie he had superpowers when he pulled off that rescue. In the second movie he no longer had those powers, but still gave it his all. A man who derives no satisfaction from helping others would never have risked his life like that.

The melancholy Peter experienced in the aftermath of that event wasn't derived from regret at having saved someone, but from regret that he couldn't have saved more (i.e. the person who burned to death on the upper floor).

He's not encouraged to be Spider-Man after the talk with Aunt May. It just perpetuated another comedy scene of him losing his power.

Aunt May gives him a pep talk about heroics, and in the very next scene he's leaping across rooftops with superhuman agility yelling "I'm back!" There's clearly a causal relationship between the two scenes, otherwise they wouldn't have been edited together in that way. So May's talk did encourage him. It wasn't the only factor, but it was definitely one of them.

These problems were not in the original Spider-Man No More story. They were added just to show that Peter is a glutton for punishment, which Rami bathes him in for this movie

No one ever claimed the film is solely based on 'Spider-Man No More!' It borrows from other stories as well. But Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #50 does contain many of the problems Peter suffers through in the film: his grades are slipping because he doesn't have time for his studies...

...he's stressed out by Jameson's attacks on him...

...his social and romantic life is on the ropes...

...and he's worried about Aunt May (in the comic she was ill, while in the film he's concerned about her financial woes).

Another story Raimi cited as a major influence on the central plot was Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #12, in which Peter faces other problems that crop up in the film. For one thing he's losing his powers and isn't quite sure why, and for another his love life is falling apart (this is the issue where he gives up his pursuit of Liz Allan and starts dating Betty).

Peter may be a glutton for punishment in the movie, but arguably he was in the early comics as well. Go back and re-read the first year of the Lee/Ditko run and you'll see him brooding, crying and second guessing himself in almost every issue. Here are just a few examples from the earliest stories.

Amazing Fantasy Vol 1 #15.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #1.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #3.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #4

Artist David Lafuente, who worked on the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, described Peter Parker as a "magnet for bad luck" and I recollect Stan Lee once saying something similar. Raimi's take on the character reflects this. It may not be the Peter from the modern comics, but the characterisation still has its basis in the source material.

He's not persuaded to get his costume back until Mary Jane is kidnapped who shares no thought or concern when he makes himself available for her.

He didn't recover his costume until after M.J. was kidnapped, but then there's nothing in the film to indicate he actually needed it during the time between the scene where his powers begin to return and the scene in the coffee shop (that interim is less than 1½ minutes of screen time, and while it's unclear how much in-universe time elapsed, it was likely less than 24 hours). And this still doesn't change the fact he'd already decided to resume his crime fighting career before M.J. was kidnapped.

It's also important to remember that while Peter's powers had begun to return (as evidenced by the scene where he's leaping across rooftops following his talk with Aunt May) they weren't yet fully recovered at the time of his coffee date with M.J. (as indicated by the fact he was still wearing his glasses). So it may not have been possible for him to web swing up to Jameson's office and recover his suit prior to that moment anyway. But even if he could have done it, it still wouldn't alter the fact that he'd already made the conscious decision to resume being Spider-Man before M.J. was kidnapped.

In 'Spider-Man No More!' Peter didn't recover his costume until the very last page of the issue, but that didn't prevent him from rescuing the old man on the rooftop earlier in the story. The exact point he steals back the costume is not as important to his character arc as the moment where he decides to resume being Spider-Man. And in the movie, that happens before M.J. is kidnapped.

No, he was just happy that after all of that moping and sulking, he finally got what he wanted... Mary Jane Watson's affections.

He was definitely happy to be with M.J., but that happiness and the satisfaction he gets from being Spider-Man are not mutually exclusive. He thought they were earlier in the film, at which point he chose to be Spider-Man over continuing his pursuit of M.J., reasoning that the former was more important to him than the latter. But by the end of the film he'd reconciled the conflicting responsibilities in his life and discovered he could still be Spider-Man and be with M.J. And that clearly made him happy. But he didn't yell "Yahoo" upon kissing M.J. and then suddenly become depressed when he realised he had to race off and help someone. The movie ends with him enjoying himself as he swings to the rescue. His life was in balance, and being Spider-Man was a big part of that. Just as it was in 'Spider-Man No More!'

The important thing is that when Peter thought he had to choose between being Spider-Man or giving up that life so he could be with M.J., he ultimately chose being Spider-Man.

Seeing officers heading to a crime is one thing, but seeing it happen in the open without anyone else around to handle it is another.

I think his nonchalance in the comic was worse. In the movie he lets a guy get roughed up for cash and he ignores a police siren. That's bad, but at least he doesn't look happy when he does it (apparently veggie hot dogs can only go so far in soothing his conscience). In the comic he ignored an entire crime wave, knowing full well that it was happening as a consequence of his retirement. He chose not to respond to an armed robbery that he could have helped defuse, which I'd argue is worse than failing to respond to an unarmed mugging. In the comic he even goes so far as to list the terrible consequences of the robbery before smiling as he decides not to do anything about it. That's more callous than anything he does in the film.

And again, it's important to remember that the movie Peter had the additional disincentive of having lost his powers at that time, which means he might not have been physically capable of helping those people even if he'd wanted to. That's not the case with the comic book version, whose inaction was purely a matter of will.

You can blame Bryce Dallas Howard for all of this. Her being pregnant (and not realizing until filming) caused a major shift in the storyline. Mary Jane wasn't supposed to be kidnapped. It was supposed to be Gwen Stacy, which actually made sense since Eddie Brock had his eyes on her. Mary Jane was also supposed to convince Harry Osborn to forgive Peter and join him in the fight instead of the butler.

That's interesting. I've not heard this before. I'm surprised they didn't just recast the role and reshoot her scenes. At any rate, it's yet another reason why they should have cut Gwen from the film and used Betty instead.

[Kamdan]

Your reading of that scene is the complete opposite of mine. As I see it, Peter reacted with guilt when he learned of the resident's death. It didn't discourage him from being a hero; it discouraged him from continuing with his retirement. That's why in the very next scene he's questioning his future. The death of the building's occupant was one of the catalysts that prompted him to rethink his life's trajectory and resume his career as Spider-Man. At least that's my understanding of the sequence.

That entire sequence provides a sobering counterpoint to the tenement fire scene in the previous film. In the first movie Spider-Man casually leaps in through an upstairs window and gets the baby out without singeing a nostril hair. In the second film he almost breaks his shoulder trying to knock down a door, fails to leap across the gap on the landing and almost suffocates from smoke inhalation. In the first movie he had superpowers when he pulled off that rescue. In the second movie he no longer had those powers, but still gave it his all. A man who derives no satisfaction from helping others would never have risked his life like that.

The melancholy Peter experienced in the aftermath of that event wasn't derived from regret at having saved someone, but from regret that he couldn't have saved more (i.e. the person who burned to death on the upper floor).

This sequence should have been like the moment in the original story where Peter realizes for sure that even in his weaken state (which is very inconsistent with him just only running out of webbing to his strength not being at full capacity), he does make a difference in people's life. There was no need to have that word that there was someone else who dies anyway. It just added another burden for Peter to keep sulking until Mary Jane gets carried off by Doc Ock.

I doubt that little girl was able to lift Peter's bodyweight on her own. Sure, she was trying to help him, but I think that was more of a cute visual detail on Raimi's part than a literal explanation for how Peter pulled himself up on to the burning landing. Ultimately Peter helped himself during that scene and saved the little girl's life in the bargain. And he did it at a time when he'd lost his super powers, which makes it all the more heroic for him to endanger his life in the first place.

Aunt May gives him a pep talk about heroics, and in the very next scene he's leaping across rooftops with superhuman agility yelling "I'm back!" There's clearly a causal relationship between the two scenes, otherwise they wouldn't have been edited together in that way. So May's talk did encourage him. It wasn't the only factor, but it was definitely one of them.

One of the problems with Rami is that he can get carried away with stuff like this. It creates the cringeworthy moments of the series. He can't just let Peter get a word of encouragement from Aunt May without a scene following it where he suffers. There's stories where he liked to torture Bruce Campbell through his character of Ash The Evil Dead movies just because he was jealous that he was handsome. Maguire got treated very similarly where it makes me feel that Rami wanted to focus too much on making life way too miserable for him. I always wondered if Maguire had enough of this in the first film and didn't want to go through it again and initially cited back problems on Seabiscuit as to why he didn't want to return for the sequel. They eventually coughed up more money and he signed on.

No one ever claimed the film is solely based on 'Spider-Man No More!' It borrows from other stories as well. But Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #50 does contain many of the problems Peter suffers through in the film: his grades are slipping because he doesn't have time for his studies...

...he's stressed out by Jameson's attacks on him...

...his social and romantic life is on the ropes...

...and he's worried about Aunt May (in the comic she was ill, while in the film he's concerned about her financial woes).

Another story Raimi cited as a major influence on the central plot was Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #12, in which Peter faces other problems that crop up in the film. For one thing he's losing his powers and isn't quite sure why, and for another his love life is falling apart (this is the issue where he gives up his pursuit of Liz Allan and starts dating Betty).

Peter may be a glutton for punishment in the movie, but arguably he was in the early comics as well. Go back and re-read the first year of the Lee/Ditko run and you'll see him brooding, crying and second guessing himself in almost every issue. Here are just a few examples from the earliest stories.

Amazing Fantasy Vol 1 #15.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #1.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #3.

Amazing Spider-Man Vol 1 #4

Artist David Lafuente, who worked on the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, described Peter Parker as a "magnet for bad luck" and I recollect Stan Lee once saying something similar. Raimi's take on the character reflects this. It may not be the Peter from the modern comics, but the characterisation still has its basis in the source material.

A constant problem in adapting comic material to film is that you lose the ability to show the internalize thoughts of the character. Spider-Man was heavy into that. Even though you would see instances where Peter was sulking or crying, you could see that despite being down hearted, he could think and rationalize his feeling bring himself out of that feeling. That was a powerful part of the character to me. It also let the reader feeling like he was Peter's only friend during these moments. It's not needed in the new Marvel Studios films since they gave him plenty of friends to talk to.

He didn't recover his costume until after M.J. was kidnapped, but then there's nothing in the film to indicate he actually needed it during the time between the scene where his powers begin to return and the scene in the coffee shop (that interim is less than 1½ minutes of screen time, and while it's unclear how much in-universe time elapsed, it was likely less than 24 hours). And this still doesn't change the fact he'd already decided to resume his crime fighting career before M.J. was kidnapped.

It's also important to remember that while Peter's powers had begun to return (as evidenced by the scene where he's leaping across rooftops following his talk with Aunt May) they weren't yet fully recovered at the time of his coffee date with M.J. (as indicated by the fact he was still wearing his glasses). So it may not have been possible for him to web swing up to Jameson's office and recover his suit prior to that moment anyway. But even if he could have done it, it still wouldn't alter the fact that he'd already made the conscious decision to resume being Spider-Man before M.J. was kidnapped.

In 'Spider-Man No More!' Peter didn't recover his costume until the very last page of the issue, but that didn't prevent him from rescuing the old man on the rooftop earlier in the story. The exact point he steals back the costume is not as important to his character ac as the moment where he decides to resume being Spider-Man. And in the movie, that happens before M.J. is kidnapped.

That's the impression they gave with the story they told and was constructed far too conveniently to have Peter only get back into full capacity until he's got Mary Jane to save. Spider-Man 2 isn't the only film to do this, which is just more of a shame toward the main actress who's only there to be kidnapped and saved. I know Dunst wasn't happy at all when she learned in the third film she would be the one being kidnapped again.

He was definitely happy to be with M.J., but that happiness and the satisfaction he gets from being Spider-Man are not mutually exclusive. He thought they were earlier in the film, at which point he chose to be Spider-Man over continuing his pursuit of M.J., reasoning that the former was more important to him than the latter. But by the end of the film he'd reconciled the conflicting responsibilities in his life and discovered he could still be Spider-Man and be with M.J. And that clearly made him happy. But he didn't yell "Yahoo" upon kissing M.J. and then suddenly become depressed when he realised he had to race off and help someone. The movie ends with him enjoying himself as he swings to the rescue. His life was in balance, and being Spider-Man was a big part of that. Just as it was in 'Spider-Man No More!'

The important thing is that when Peter thought he had to choose between being Spider-Man or giving up that life so he could be with M.J., he ultimately chose being Spider-Man.

Again, Rami can't leave a good ending like that alone. He's gotta show Mary Jane with a sullen face that was probably the same one that John Jameson had when he realized that he wasn't getting married. This doesn't help her character at all and makes us question the validity of this character being Peter's true love.

I think his nonchalance in the comic was worse. In the movie he lets a guy get roughed up for cash and he ignores a police siren. That's bad, but at least he doesn't look happy when he does it (apparently veggie hot dogs can only go so far in soothing his conscience). In the comic he ignored an entire crime wave, knowing full well that it was happening as a consequence of his retirement. He chose not to respond to an armed robbery that he could have helped defuse, which I'd argue is worse than failing to respond to an unarmed mugging. In the comic he even goes so far as to list the terrible consequences of the robbery before smiling as he decides not to do anything about it. That's more callous than anything he does in the film.

And again, it's important to remember that the movie Peter had the additional disincentive of having lost his powers at that time, which means he might not have been physically capable of helping those people even if he'd wanted to. That's not the case with the comic book version, whose inaction was purely a matter of will.

Peter's "nonchalance" at least gave him a moment where he wasn't burden by responsibilities and he had a right to be happy. It did eventually hit him when he faced it dead on instead of just walking away like everyone else. Rami's idea of Spider-Man is that his life sucks no matter what. Again, this is more like Darkman who has a lot more going against him than Peter Parker.

That's interesting. I've not heard this before. I'm surprised they didn't just recast the role and reshoot her scenes. At any rate, it's yet another reason why they should have cut Gwen from the film and used Betty instead.

Surprised you didn't know that. It was pretty widely publicized when it was being made that changes had to be made and further fueled the backlash against it, but it was the highest grossing of the series anyways. It's a shame that Betty Brant was just a glorified extra in these films. Again, just more misguided direction from the filmmakers to make Mary Jane the one and only love for Peter when he really had a slew of girls around him.

[thecolorsblend]

This sequence should have been like the moment in the original story where Peter realizes for sure that even in his weaken state (which is very inconsistent with him just only running out of webbing to his strength not being at full capacity), he does make a difference in people's life. There was no need to have that word that there was someone else who dies anyway. It just added another burden for Peter to keep sulking until Mary Jane gets carried off by Doc Ock.

What I took from that stuff was that Peter had to want to be Spider-Man again. Strangers in danger, pep talks from family, even his own guilt weren't enough. He wanted to become Spider-Man again with his mind, but not with his heart.

Doc Ock kidnapping MJ solved for that. Peter was able to truly save the day after that. Plus, victory in Spider-Man 2 didn't come from vanquishing Doc Ock so much as redeeming him.

With great power there must also come great responsibility. And sometimes, compassion is the greatest power of all.

One reason I reject the notion that only MJ's peril restored Peter's drive to be Spider-Man is that he continued being Spider-Man after the day had been properly saved. I think that instead, Peter discovered actual fulfillment from being Spider-Man which had heretofore eluded him.

To those who think that MJ was the crypto-villain of the trilogy though... well, she's very often not presented in a flattering light, there's no denying that.

[The Dark Knight]

Peter gave up his former life and ACCEPTED heroism wasn't his responsibility anymore. He knew his powers weren't working, or at best weren't reliable, so his confidence was at rock bottom. I don't see it as being a coward, but rather a self-doubting human being. Life literally changed for Peter overnight, so even if he was nostalgic about his former heroics, he knew he couldn't do it anymore. He lost confidence in all areas of his life.

This is a man who gained a muscular frame after waking up one morning. He didn't work out for those abilities. He doesn't know what it's like to be a badass without superpowers or the costume. Memories of being a superhero don't count for much when current day reality bites.

Peter notices someone is getting beaten up – he doesn't like what he sees, but can he resolve the conflict without endangering himself? Hard to say. The sirens go past while he's eating a hotdog, but he's just another civilian who can't keep up. So he goes about his day.

The will to be heroic eventually becomes too great, as shown when he enters the building fire to save lives. But he has to work his way up to that mental place, which I find emotionally believable. Lives are still lost as a result, however the fire rescue proves he can still be a hero without the powers. On the flipside it reinforces the idea he's a shadow of his former self. But even that isn't the final trigger to begin his return.

When Peter lost his powers he also lost his spark for life. He came to accept a mundane existence in exchange for something less chaotic. But by remaining in the background he found himself unfulfilled. He had to emotionally grow from square one to earn those powers back and truly claim them as his own. He had to know he was genuinely loved and needed before anything seriously changed. The core of the film is Peter's emotional healing.

Peter was abused as Spider-Man AND Peter, but those who mattered in society appreciated his existence, or came to appreciate him again – Aunt May's speech was a big factor in that regard. However as colors said, the capture of Mary Jane sealed the deal.

Life is all about confidence and trying to create a window of opportunity, no matter what it is you're seeking. You might be wanting a job interview, or in Peter's case, your soul mate. Failure to get that opening leads to constant longing. By the time MJ kissed him, Peter knew he had an opening for love, and he had to literally fight Doc Ock to reclaim the prize. That was natural motivation so Peter made it happen. Peter's hope was rekindled through strong positive emotions.

Do we accept our current lives as unchangeable, or do we seek to do something about it? I've found that having a reason for living excites the soul, it's just the difficulty in finding that reason and then making it happen. Peter found his reason, whereas before he was trying to be happy when he wasn't. Life is hard and three dimensional. SM2 shows that perfectly. I'd say it's my favorite superhero film of all time, and that goes with the Raimi trilogy.

[The Joker]

You left out the parts where Peter is discouraged from his heroic acts when he overhears that someone else in the building died. It was further insulting when the little girl ends up saving Peter from falling. He's not encouraged to be Spider-Man after the talk with Aunt May. It just perpetuated another comedy scene of him losing his power. He's not persuaded to get his costume back until Mary Jane is kidnapped who shares no thought or concern when he makes himself available for her. These problems were not in the original Spider-Man No More story. They were added just to show that Peter is a glutton for punishment, which Rami bathes him in for this movie. Makes it more Darkman than Spider-Man.

Yeah, that's been a long running narrative when it comes to Spider-Man's history. Ups and downs. Moments of bliss, moments of pain and sorrow. A complicated super hero life, and at times, an even more complicated private life. Not only for himself, but also for those around him. That's not exclusive to Dark Man, but a decidedly reoccurring theme straight from the source material. 

No, he was just happy that after all of that moping and sulking, he finally got what he wanted... Mary Jane Watson's affections. As we learn in the next movie, it wasn't worth the effort with her inability to relate with other people's problems and unfaithfulness to who she's with.

I always took the relationship, as presented in SM2, as a parallel of two people, essentially, denying themselves of who they are and what they want, and considering that a life of being content would be forever fulfilling. Not only in the theme of Peter's decision to quit Spider-Man, but also Mary Jane's choice in being engaged to John Jameson. Being content is one thing, denying who you truly are and/or having to make a difficult decision, especially if it's not an easy one, due to complicated feelings and emotions is quite another.

Cause, you know, let's not forget that it was much more than just Peter sulking and getting what he wants in the end. Raimi makes it pretty clear throughout the film that both want one another, but due to circumstances and events, both were pushing the other away. Plus there's that little scene with Mary Jane & Peter in the web, with Peter making the tough choice to reject Mary Jane's romantic advances (not the first time this happened) due to Peter finally accepting, and not denying anymore, that Spider-Man is something he cannot simply give up. Spider-Man was a commitment Peter would refuse to walk away from anymore. He did not try to persuade her to accept the situation, but rather gently pushed her away again, after having openly pursued her, due to this now unwavering commitment.

Could Mary Jane have then taken the easy route of living a life of content, and luxury being married to John Jameson the astronaut? Absolutely. However, she too ultimately made the tough decision to choose the road less traveled, which was going to be a decidedly harder and more complicated relationship with Peter at the end of SM2. Following Spidey's blissfully swinging around the city at the conclusion of SM2, there is a lingering shot of Mary Jane non-verbally looking on as the film fades to black, indicating to the audience that she's painfully aware this decision she just made in her relationship with Peter is going to be anything but easy and undemanding. Brilliant decision on Raimi's part.

It matters a lot to me when they outright said in the first film "this like any story worth telling is all about a girl." It was also jarring how they made it pretty clear that Mary Jane realized Peter was Spider-Man at the end of the first movie and they completely ignored that in the second with her acting surprised that he was him despite all of the obvious indications.

One could also argue that Mary Jane had a very strong suspicion that Peter was Spider-Man in SM1, but nothing that actually confirmed it. Some people need absolute confirmation. Having only a sneaking suspicion just doesn't ultimately cut it. A classic comic book trope if there ever was one. There was also the scene where MJ purposely recreates the now iconic kiss from SM1 with John Jameson. Clearly hoping against hope that perhaps John was infact Spider-Man. It's another non-verbal shot, but the dishearted look following this kiss is written all over her face. Another indication that her then-current path was going to be anything but fulfilling in the long term.

Both Peter & MJ make bad decisions in SM2, equating them both as imperfect people, both persuing and pushing the other away, then finally coming together at the end following all the trials and tribulations. But that's a underlying theme in SM2 to be perfectly honest, isn't it? Making tough decisions, even if it's stands in contrast to your own personal needs and ambitions. Peter did. Mary Jane did. Harry Osborn did. Even Doc Ock.

I wouldn't go so far in saying that Raimi's Spider-Man is my definitiive Spider-Man, but if we're talking strictly the live action cinematic films we have thus far, yeah, I don't see SM1 & SM2 being topped anytime soon. Especially in light of what we've received over, say, the past decade.

[thecolorsblend]

There was also the scene where MJ purposely recreates the now iconic kiss from SM1 with John Jameson. Clearly hoping against hope that perhaps John was infact Spider-Man. It's another non-verbal shot, but the dishearted look following this kiss is written all over her face. Another indication that her then-current path was going to be anything but fulfilling in the long term.

Huh.

I guess I thought she kissed John like that to see if she'd get the same thrill as when she kissed Spider-Man like that. And as predictable as it was to her, no, she didn't get the same thrill. Hence, the disappointment.

When she moved in to kiss Peter just before Ock's attack, she was essentially trying the same thing on him, kind of.

Yours is an interesting take though.

[The Joker]

Huh.

I guess I thought she kissed John like that to see if she'd get the same thrill as when she kissed Spider-Man like that. And as predictable as it was to her, no, she didn't get the same thrill. Hence, the disappointment.

When she moved in to kiss Peter just before Ock's attack, she was essentially trying the same thing on him, kind of.

Yours is an interesting take though.

Then again, it could just be me looking too deep into things.

I just always took it as an act of MJ trying, or wanting, to convince herself of something she knows beforehand probably isn't true. Even if John essentially fits the ideal classic mold of what a (super)hero would be.

[Silver Nemesis]

There's some terrific analysis going on in this thread.

There was also the scene where MJ purposely recreates the now iconic kiss from SM1 with John Jameson. Clearly hoping against hope that perhaps John was infact Spider-Man. It's another non-verbal shot, but the dishearted look following this kiss is written all over her face. Another indication that her then-current path was going to be anything but fulfilling in the long term.

Huh.

I guess I thought she kissed John like that to see if she'd get the same thrill as when she kissed Spider-Man like that. And as predictable as it was to her, no, she didn't get the same thrill. Hence, the disappointment.

When she moved in to kiss Peter just before Ock's attack, she was essentially trying the same thing on him, kind of.

Yours is an interesting take though.

I'd not thought about this scene too much before either, but The Joker's take is interesting. Jameson presents his son John as a contrast to Spider-Man, just like he did in the original comics. John is a legitimate hero, while Spidey is the disreputable vigilante. This is somewhat similar to the contrast between Batman and Dent in The Dark Knight. M.J. can't have Spider-Man, so she gravitates towards the next best thing. In the scene where she kisses John on the couch, she's clearly comparing him with Spider-Man. In the next scene she's meeting with Peter to tell him that he's the one she wants to be with.

The scene where she recreates the inverted kiss with John is the moment were M.J. discards the fantasy of the unobtainable hero that is Spider-Man – against which John is a less desirable but more obtainable 'next best thing' – in favour of the more flawed and realistic prospect embodied in Peter. She tried doing this at the end of the first film, and when she couldn't have Peter following Norman's funeral she ended up becoming involved with another 'hero' in the form of John. Or perhaps John represents the midway point between Spider-Man and Peter? Did M.J. at one time perceive Flash Thompson as a hero as well? If so, there's a clear pattern in her choice of men prior to Peter.

It's a bit like Lois Lane abandoning her pursuit of the perfect man, Superman, in favour of the flawed everyman that is Clark Kent. In that sense, John is very much a stand-in for Spider-Man and the fantasy he represents in M.J.'s mind. A fantasy that she then rejects. Of course in the end she gets Peter and Spider-Man, but she didn't know they were one and the same when she met with Peter in the coffee shop.

Life is all about confidence and trying to create a window of opportunity, no matter what it is you're seeking. You might be wanting a job interview, or in Peter's case, your soul mate. Failure to get that opening leads to constant longing. By the time MJ kissed him, Peter knew he had an opening for love, and he had to literally fight Doc Ock to reclaim the prize. That was natural motivation so Peter made it happen. Peter's hope was rekindled through strong positive emotions.

Failure is one of the central themes in Spider-Man 2. All three of Raimi's movies deal with the idea of responsibility in the face of trying circumstances. Spider-Man 1 is about dealing with power. Spider-Man 2 is about dealing with failure. Spider-Man 3 is about dealing with success. All three things can be equally corrosive to the human soul if they're handled in an irresponsible manner. Peter has to learn how to deal with these experiences in order to transition from the boy he is at the beginning of the first film...

...to the man he's become at the end of the third.

If we look back over all the different stages of his journey, we can see the challenges he went through, the missteps he took along the way, and the various people he might have turned into. That's quite a character arc. By comparison, the MCU Peter has undergone very little growth or development across the span of five films. His status might have changed slightly, and he might have grown a smidgeon less naïve and excitable, but he's still basically the same guy at the end of Far From Home that he was in Civil War.

But Maguire's Peter learned new things and continued growing across all three films in the trilogy. There are actions he'd take in one film that he wouldn't take in the next because his attitude and worldview have changed. For example, in the first two films he puts M.J. on a pedestal because he thinks he's unworthy of her, but by the third film his confidence has grown to the point of arrogance and he starts taking her emotional needs for granted. In the first film he's willing to abuse his powers to make a quick buck at the wrestling match, but after learning the folly of such irresponsibility he spends the second movie struggling financially in the pursuit of honest pay. In the first Spider-Man film he never forgives Ben's killer and shows no remorse when he dies, but by the end of Spider-Man 3 he's able to forgive Marko and let go of his anger, because by that point he's experienced firsthand how easy it is to get drawn into the darkness. All of these changes reflect the organic growth of his character.

There was a time when I was resentful that Raimi's Spider-Man 4 never got made. But in retrospect, I'm glad the series ended when it did. For one thing, Sony probably would've screwed it up. But for another, Spider-Man 3 serves as a fitting conclusion to the stories of Peter, M.J. and Harry and offers closure to the entire saga. Compare that with the Iron Man, Thor or Captain America trilogies, which have open-ended finales that lead into the next Avengers movie without providing any real closure. Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy tells a complete story with a beginning, middle and end, just like Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy did. And unfortunately that's becoming an increasingly rare thing in the age of shared universe CBMs.

[The Joker]

You know, comparing the two different cinematic incarnations of Spider-Man we have received since SM3, I can't help but have a huge curiosity in how a SM4 or a followup Raimi trilogy (SM4-SM5-SM6) would have turned out if Raimi were left to his own devices? However, I agree with SN 110% that Sony probably would have found a way to much it all up somehow.

It's really a shame, but the ending to SM3 does indeed feel like a rightful conclusion to the entire series, and I agree that it might have actually worked out for the better for the series to end this way. One thing I like about SM3's ending, is how much it's in contrast to the previous two films endings. Rather than continue on with the theme of a grand finale with Spider-Man swinging around New York, SM3's ending is alot more tender and solemn. Right down to Mary Jane's nightclub singing, "I'm thru with Love", to Peter arriving, holding his hand out, and non-verbally asking MJ for a slow dance, to them slow dancing closely together with the final closeup of Peter's face evoking strong, but quiet emotions. If I had to interpret them, I would say that they are feelings of euphoria, devotion and feeling at peace he only gets when he's with MJ. About the best comparison, in my mind, I could make, is the ending of the original 1976 Rocky with Adrian telling Rocky she loves him, with Rocky's non verbal response being that of quiet, but pure jubilation.

As much as I would have loved to have seen more Spider-Man films under Raimi's direction and cast, I don't know if this particular conclusion could have been matched. There's just a certain sense of finality about it that makes it very appropriate that SM3's ending, concludes this Spider-Man's story arc.