B&R Retrospective

[thecolorsblend]

This is the key to enjoying it. The movie's not trying to be like the Modern Age comics, but is instead drawing most of its inspiration from the Silver Age. If you evaluate Schumacher's Batgirl based on how closely she resembles the comic book Barbara Gordon then you're going to be disappointed, but if you evaluate her based on how closely she resembles the original Betty Kane Batgirl then it's a whole different story.

There are some overlooked eras in Batman history. 1978-1985, for example. It seems like once Englehart and Rogers called it a day, fans forgot about Batman until Frank Miller.

I'll even suggest that the period between No Man's Land and Hush is another era that's falling down the chasm. Perhaps for good reason, but still.

And I think it's safe to say that a lot of fans lack familiarity with Batman from about 1950 or so through 1964. Perhaps 1969, even.

For that reason, B&R reminds them of the Adam West show since they don't have anything else that otherwise lines up the movie. As a result, their analysis of the movie is deeply flawed. It's easy to find examples of this in the plethora of "Everything wrong with B&R" videos on YouTube.

[The Dark Knight]

Five positive points I made in 2013:

Five points.

Gliding back to Gotham on the verge of space, ejecting from frozen Batmobiles, etc.
The overall, fun 'I don't give a beep' tone of the film. Take it or leave it.
The look of the vehicles and the expressionism of Arkham Asylum.
Goldenthal's score. Hopefully it sees the light of day via LaLa Land Records.
Michael Gough. The guy was a class act.

I also enjoy Uma Thurman's Ivy in this. A comic accurate costume and controlling vines just like the comics and video games. I think B&R Ivy is actually a strong representation of the character's credible threat level as a villain, and why she should be used more often. As a fan of manipulation tactics, she essentially always gets what she wants, has no problem killing and actually relishes it. Plants are #1, and humanity comes last.

As a collector of die cast Batmobiles, I'd really like to have the 1997 version in my collection along with the others. I'd also like an official expanded soundtrack, just as they did with Forever. Who knows, maybe they've done market research and determined anything from the film just wouldn't sell. But in any case, I think that merchandising blackout is unfair. The film does exist, even if some want to pretend it doesn't.

[thecolorsblend]

I also enjoy Uma Thurman's Ivy in this. A comic accurate costume and controlling vines just like the comics and video games. I think B&R Ivy is actually a strong representation of the character's credible threat level as a villain, and why she should be used more often. As a fan of manipulation tactics, she essentially always gets what she wants, has no problem killing and actually relishes it. Plants are #1, and humanity comes last.

The Long Halloween and Hush both imply that Ivy is a rapist. Not sure what to think of that. On the one hand, her misanthropy easily explain that. When people aren't people to one, it's probably easy to justify harming them in that way.

But still, rape is pretty heavy stuff and I don't think it belongs in materials ultimately intended for children's enjoyment.

As a collector of die cast Batmobiles, I'd really like to have the 1997 version in my collection along with the others. I'd also like an official expanded soundtrack, just as they did with Forever. Who knows, maybe they've done market research and determined anything from the film just wouldn't sell. But in any case, I think that merchandising blackout is unfair. The film does exist, even if some want to pretend it doesn't.

I've got a Hot Wheels B&R Batmobile. Love the movie or hate it but it's a seriously cool car and it deserves recognition.

I sometimes think the merch blackout owes to overall brand protection. Is there enough interest in the movie to turn a profit on merch? I have to believe the answer is yes. But my hunch (based on nothing) is that the marketing wonks don't want inevitable YouTube videos and hack click bait articles deriding the choice to merch B&R when [insert Batman property here] gets "ignored". That would be my main idea behind blacking out merch but maybe I shouldn't project it onto them. It might be that licensees see B&R as a risk, full-stop.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm after a 1:18 scale version, and one hasn't been made yet unfortunately. The car isn't my favorite or anything, but I'd like to have one for completist purposes. It's the only live action Batmobile not to receive that treatment, and I'm not surprised. There will never be anything like B&R again, and the dark and gritty is here to stay. So the film's threat level has well and truly subsided. Once Begins came that happened, and that's now 15 years ago.

Completists would get B&R merchandise. I could possibly see members of the public getting B&R stuff as a cult classic laugh. The question is at what volume. Batman Forever seems to have dislodged itself somewhat from negative perceptions. The stigma around B&R will probably always be too great, and thus the cycle will continue.

[Andrew]

Good find, Fish! Nice work.

Still, I'm a bit done with these people apologizing for the movie. They made a movie and they wanted it to entertain people. I think both Schumacher films have aged amazingly well (esp considering how comic book films are going these days, pre-COVID) and I'm able to put B&R in its place as a fun action romp starring a reasonably happy Batman who is reasonably well-adjusted.

The movie is only "bad" if the viewer thinks something like TDK is the only valid approach to the character. I suppose that's valid but the cast and crew still have nothing to apologize for.

I think the movie outright made fun of the characters too often, particularly Bane barely speaking and saying "Monkey work", most of Freeze's dialogue and the Bat-credit card and butt shots.

Agreed that Poison Ivy was a fine adaptation and that Arkham was well done.

[The Dark Knight]

Bane was effectively Ivan, Ivy's plant based henchman from 1981's Batman #339, as referenced by GothamAlleys and his blog. Ivan is strong, doesn't speak much other than simple sentences, and also drives Ivy from the airport as she disguises herself with a wig.

As a Bane fan (I have him neck and neck with the Joker) I lament this portrayal as it detracts from the strategic beast of Knightfall. But I get what they were going for. In B&R she was the strategist. Ivy sees men as nothing but pawns to do her bidding. Bane was loyal muscle - in simplistic terms she was beauty and he was the beast.

Woodrue made Bane a freak loaded with Venom, and Pamela became a freak with aloe. In that sense they were kindred spirits with shared origins. Bane had the iconography they were after, but I would've preferred Ivan or someone like him instead. But alas, it is what it is.

[Silver Nemesis]

Bane was effectively Ivan, Ivy's plant based henchman from 1981's Batman #339, as referenced by GothamAlleys and his blog. Ivan is strong, doesn't speak much other than simple sentences, and also drives Ivy from the airport as she disguises herself with a wig.

If I may, I'd just like to clarify a few facts about this particular storyline. Most of Gotham Alleys' blog post on this subject was copied from my original forum post, but I don't think he read the 1981-82 Poison Ivy storyline since he misrepresented some of the information pertaining to it. It was a story arc written by Gerry Conway that ran through the following issues:

•   'A Sweet Kiss of Poison' (Batman Vol 1 #339, September 1981)
•   'A Dagger So Deadly...' (Batman Vol 1 #343, January 1982)
•   'Monster, My Sweet!' (Batman Vol 1 #344, February 1982)

Ivy has two separate henchmen in this storyline. In Batman Vol 1 #339 she has a henchman named Evan. He chauffeurs her like Bane, but at no point does he drive her from an airport as it implies he does on Gotham Alleys' blog.

Gotham Alleys stated that this character was called Ivan, and later renamed Ivor. His name is Evan. Ivy has a separate henchman named Ivor who appears in Batman Vol 1 #344 and is also depicted as her chauffeur.

Ivor is the character she turns into a brutish plant-human hybrid.

In my forum post, and the resultant site feature, I speculated that Evan and Ivor were one and the same and that Conway simply changed the character's name in between issues. However this is just my theory and is not canon. Gotham Alleys must have misunderstood and posted it as fact.

He also captioned an image of Ivy taken from Batman #344, saying it showed it her spreading her seeds as Ivan stands behind her. The character standing behind her in that panel is Ivor, and Ivy is remorsefully picking up the remains of a plant she knocked over in anger, not planting seeds.

I stand by what I wrote in my original post on this subject – I think Evan and Ivor are meant to be the same character, and I think this storyline might have influenced the 1997 movie. Similarities include:

•   Ivy disguising herself with a wig to get close to Bruce Wayne at a social event early in the story so she can cast her influence over him
•   Ivy creating a human-plant hybrid
•   Ivy using a vine like a whip (she does this in both Batman #339 and #344)
•   Ivy snaring Batman in a vine which then almost squeezes him to death
•   Batman having to fight Ivy's super strong mutated henchman, who was shown chauffeuring her earlier in the story

Mix this storyline with Ivy's first two appearances from the Silver Age (Batman Vol 1 #181 and #183), throw in her connection to Jason Woodrue from the Modern Age comics, and cap the whole thing off with the ending of 'Hot House' where Ivy is playing 'he loves me, he loves me not' in her cell at Arkham (this scene is from Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight Vol 1 #43, not #42 as Gotham Alleys stated in his blog)...

...and you get her.

[The Dark Knight]

If I may, I'd just like to clarify a few facts about this particular storyline. Most of Gotham Alleys' blog post on this subject was copied from my original forum post, but I don't think he read the 1981-82 Poison Ivy storyline since he misrepresented some of the information pertaining to it.

Thanks for clearing that up, maestro.

Hope all is well in the UK.

[The Laughing Fish]

Arnold Schwarzenegger looked back at B&R when he sat down to talk about his most iconic characters with GQ in 2019.

It might've been easier for him to say because he was paid extremely well, but he was very complimentary towards the whole experience. But I don't think he's being totally genuine, because he said working with Clooney was great to work with despite the fact that Clooney went on record saying the two didn't meet on set.

[The Joker]

Figure I would post this here.

Time capsule 1996 Batman and Robin (plus some Superman TAS tidbits as well).