Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[The Dark Knight]

This thread appears to have become our general Star Wars dumping ground. I leave it to the judgment of the mods whether the title should be changed to reflect that fact or if, perhaps, a new thread should be created.

In any case, in a separate thread, I expressed a growing disenchantment I've had lately with sequels. Specifically, that sequels often do more harm than good. And so it was that I rolled a grenade out there.

PS- If you really want me to get controversial, ask me how supportive I am of The Empire Strikes Back's existence (in retrospect).

I guess TDK was intrigued by that based upon the fact that he wrote:

Go for it.

Very well.

My antipathy to sequels has begun extending to Empire. Now, before I get into all that, allow me to preface my comments that Empire has been so loved, so praised, so analyzed that I simply have nothing new to offer there. It's all been said before. And frankly, I disagree with none of it. Empire is a bona fide classic and it deserves its spot on many fans' lists as the best Star Wars movie.

And yet...

Technically, the Judy Garland version of The Wizard Of Oz never got a sequel. No, the one from the eighties doesn't really count. The original Baum novels obviously allowed, nay demanded a sequel. But obviously, it never happened. Theoretically, it could've. But it didn't.

And that fact, the reality that, whatever Baum's original intentions might've been, The Wizard Of Oz exists as a standalone piece has, I believe, ENHANCED the film's legacy and legend. If TWOO was simply the first in a series of films, I believe it would've suffered. I don't think it would be regarded today as a classic. Or, perhaps, not as much of a classic. Even if the subsequent follow-up films delivered the goods and were of equal quality to TWOO (and right there, you're well nigh into fantasy territory of your own), the simple fact that TWOO is no longer an immaculate, standalone piece would ultimately harm TWOO's legacy as arguably the definitive Golden Age Of Hollywood film that we consider it to be today.

I submit to all of you that something similar happened to Star Wars '77. The instant Lucas put pencil to yellow notepad for the rough draft of Empire, SW77 lost something that could never be recovered. SW77 became a runaway success, almost universally beloved by audiences worldwide. But the minute Empire exists at all, SW77 is no longer special. It's now just the first one.

Unfortunately, it gets worse from there. Empire was a tremendous success in its own right. Which led to Jedi.

Now, I love Jedi. But even the child-at-heart among us is probably willing to acknowledge that Jedi is a lesser work as compared to SW77 and Empire. Jedi is where the rot set in.

The prequels. Oh, the prequels. Some love them, some hate them, some (like me) simply have a boatload of issues with them. But no matter how you slice it, the prequels are a complicated subject for virtually all Star Wars fans.

More? Yeah, there's more.

Disney. As I say, by sheer virtue of existing, quality be damned, Empire ruined SW77's immaculate reality. But at least Empire is a worthwhile film. And Jedi is still entertaining. Sure, the prequels may not be perfect but, hey, they wrap up the story in a mostly satisfying way, amirite?

But Disney. Disney has basically killed the golden goose. Blame can be assigned for that in any manner you see fit but the fact remains that Disney has ruined the franchise. Solo lost money. There's no denying it, there's no sugarcoating it. Before Solo, every Star Wars film did boffo box office numbers.

After Solo, there is blood in the water.

More? Yes, I've still got more.

The nadir of this whole drama was undoubtedly JOKER. Hear me out because I love JOKER. But however you want to slice it, JOKER was a low budget crime film that, by all rights, should've been lucky to hit $400 million worldwide. And nobody would've been disappointed by that.

But not only did JOKER far exceed a paltry $400 million global take, not only did JOKER join the $1 Billion Club but JOKER HAS OUTGROSSED THREE DISNEY STAR WARS FILMS: Rogue One, Rise Of Skywalker and Solo.

The situation is so dire that COVID has probably saved Disney the considerable embarrassment of publicly announcing that feature films are going into hibernation for a while.

There's no good reason for JOKER to outgross three Star Wars films. There's certainly no good reason for JOKER to outgross the Star Wars equivalent of Endgame. Nevertheless, that's where we are right now.

If SW77 had been allowed to stand on its own without further sequels, sure, the "franchise" would definitely be less profitable than it is (or than it was, anyway). But not only would existing as a standalone piece have ultimately benefitted SW77 the same way that TWOO has benefitted from existing without a sequel but the Star Wars film series itself wouldn't have suffered the indignities it has suffered lo these past few years.

Can all of this be blamed on Empire? Of course not. As I say, Empire is a great film and I adore it. I have literally no criticisms of it. But there's just no denying that Empire opened a door that ultimately led to where we are right now: A world where Star Wars is a joke even to its most devoted fans.

Nothing lasts forever. Perhaps it's the nature of any franchise to eventually land in the crapper. Certainly that appears to be the state of affairs with Terminator, for example. So maybe we're only seeing the logical conclusion of the once mighty Star Wars franchise's reign as the undisputed king of cinema for two different generations. Maybe this was all to be expected. But no matter what, all these different roads lead back to Empire. Empire isn't bad as a film. But it is[/b] bad for what it ultimately led to.

Search your feelings, you will know it to be true.

Interesting thoughts.

I've had some of my own regarding Star Wars in recent times.

TESB is the peak that was never again reached. Since 1980 it has always been the benchmark. That's 40 year ago, and that's the real indictment on the franchise. Why couldn't they get there again?

DisneyWars made me reassess the original trilogy. I don't think that even holds up all too well, especially when you compare it to something like LOTR. The suspensions of disbelief knock it down, especially in ROTJ. As a child the Star Wars trilogy plays a lot better, but as an adult looking back? It's just not the same to me anymore. That magic has been removed now, through constant special editions and other devaluations of the overall brand. I'm over it all. 

TESB was the peak. That's the problem. And we know the original trilogy leads to the Disney era, no matter how hard we pretend it doesn't exist.

[thecolorsblend]

DisneyWars made me reassess the original trilogy. I don't think that even holds up all too well, especially when you compare it to something like LOTR. The suspensions of disbelief knock it down, especially in ROTJ.

I know what you mean.

I look back at the LOTR films sometimes and think how many perfect storms had to line up for us to have the masterpieces that we have now. The odds were amazingly low and yet it happened somehow anyway.

And those Howard Shore scores! One of the dirty little secrets of the whole LOTR vs. Star Wars pissing match is how the number of themes just in LOTR easily dwarf (as it were) the number of themes from Star Wars. I think Shore has Williams outnumbered by something like 2:1 or 3:1 or something. But the QUALITY of Shore's work is what tells the tale. Breathtaking music that's epic, majestic, tender, romantic, panicked, defeated, victorious or whatever else. So many moods and textures.

LOTR is literally everything that makes cinema great. I might critique one of Jackson's creative choices over and against Tolkien himself but I can't criticize the whole.

LOTR is simply a perfect trilogy.

Unpopular Opinion: Give me the theatrical LOTR films any day.

[The Joker]

Star Wars was one of those things, that I got into not during it's peak popularity (wasn't even born yet), or during it's resurgence in the mid 1990's, but during it's 'dark period' in the very early 1990's where literally anything related to Star Wars was far and few in between (novels and maybe insider magazines).

Why did I get into it? I believe one reason was that I found the mythology accessible for a newbie. 3 movies, and you're done. Simple. Concise. Easy. A first cousin around this time, gave me all his Star Wars action figures he had as a kid, so that was a factor as well for sure. But yeah, I remained interested in the property before the reintroduction of the '90's Kenner toy line, before "Shadows of the Empire", before the 1997 Special Editions, ect. Actually, I felt the franchise was in a fairly healthy spot during this time frame, despite no movies being made about a new Star Wars episode for well over 10 years at this stage.

Then Episode 1 "The Phantom Menace" dropped in 1999.

Clearly, the schism within the fan base was heightened to it's extremes following this film. Some loving TPM, some wanting to love TPM, some underwhelmed by TPM, and some absolutely loathing TPM. I believe this schism continues with Episode 2 "Attack of the Clones", and perhaps to a lesser extent with, Episode 3 "Revenge of the Sith". Are they perfect films? No. Do they look better in retrospect (especially these days)? Yes. But in the end, they are, at the very least, a trilogy that can be seen as a focused vision of what came before the beloved Episodes 4-6. However, I find this era to be where the rose tinted glasses began to slip. That, maybe, just maybe, Star Wars wasn't this perfect thing created by George Lucas.

I can't say I was ever a hater of the prequels. However, I personally found my fascination with Darth Vader to be a bit diminished due to the prequels handling of the character. Specifically in Episodes 2-3. Course we knew what we were getting into with the prequels, and it heavily focusing upon the story of Anakin's rise and fall, but I actually kinda miss the Star Wars era prior to the prequels where we were fed only brief info of Darth Vader's past (excellent pilot, Jedi, Luke's father), and that's it. Leaving much to the imagination and providing a mystery to the character that, I think, gives a certain unique quality that is otherwise lost. Actually, Boba Fett can fall under this as well come to think of it.

In some ways, this is kinda like the situation with Wolverine Pre-ORIGIN. With ORIGIN being the series where we find out Wolverine's backstory, and his real name being James Howlett, ect. It's ok, but being a kid who really got into X-Men in 1992 with the comics and Animated Series, I still prefer that guy who didn't really know a lot about his mysterious past. Who was said to have memory implants, and who genuinely did not know what sort of person he was, or what memories were truth or implanted fiction? I don't know, but sometimes not having everything spelled out for a character's past and history can actually be seen as a advantage character-wise, rather than anything related to a hindrance.

Having said all that, and especially looking back in retrospect on Star Wars following Disney's own trilogy debacle, I kinda wish Lucas would have just went ahead and green lit the sequel trilogy rather than the prequel trilogy back in 1999. I think seeing Luke, Leia, Han, at the ages Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford were back then would have been interesting. These were character's people were invested in for over 2 decades at that stage, and seeing them return, under that time frame, would have been something. Plus, Lucas can handle a little something called, "cohesion" in terms of a trilogy. Rather than the piecemeal sequel trilogy we got under Disney. I think if Lucas had already made the sequel trilogy, then selling Star Wars to Disney with the prequels being the hot ticket item, I think they would have been forced to go into them with an actual plan, or at the very least, story points that have to be followed, since it's essentially leading into the OT.

Maybe I am giving Disney way too much credit by even assuming that much, but I do like Rogue One for the most part. Which can probably be written off as a 'happy accident' considering it's troubled production.

[thecolorsblend]

Star Wars was one of those things, that I got into not during it's peak popularity (wasn't even born yet), or during it's resurgence in the mid 1990's, but during it's 'dark period' in the very early 1990's where literally anything related to Star Wars was far and few in between (novels and maybe insider magazines).

Why did I get into it? I believe one reason was that I found the mythology accessible for a newbie. 3 movies, and you're done. Simple. Concise. Easy. A first cousin around this time, gave me all his Star Wars action figures he had as a kid, so that was a factor as well for sure. But yeah, I remained interested in the property before the reintroduction of the '90's Kenner toy line, before "Shadows of the Empire", before the 1997 Special Editions, ect. Actually, I felt the franchise was in a fairly healthy spot during this time frame, despite no movies being made about a new Star Wars episode for well over 10 years at this stage.

Then Episode 1 "The Phantom Menace" dropped in 1999.

Clearly, the schism within the fan base was heightened to it's extremes following this film. Some loving TPM, some wanting to love TPM, some underwhelmed by TPM, and some absolutely loathing TPM. I believe this schism continues with Episode 2 "Attack of the Clones", and perhaps to a lesser extent with, Episode 3 "Revenge of the Sith". Are they perfect films? No. Do they look better in retrospect (especially these days)? Yes. But in the end, they are, at the very least, a trilogy that can be seen as a focused vision of what came before the beloved Episodes 4-6. However, I find this era to be where the rose tinted glasses began to slip. That, maybe, just maybe, Star Wars wasn't this perfect thing created by George Lucas.

I can't say I was ever a hater of the prequels. However, I personally found my fascination with Darth Vader to be a bit diminished due to the prequels handling of the character. Specifically in Episodes 2-3. Course we knew what we were getting into with the prequels, and it heavily focusing upon the story of Anakin's rise and fall, but I actually kinda miss the Star Wars era prior to the prequels where we were fed only brief info of Darth Vader's past (excellent pilot, Jedi, Luke's father), and that's it. Leaving much to the imagination and providing a mystery to the character that, I think, gives a certain unique quality that is otherwise lost. Actually, Boba Fett can fall under this as well come to think of it.

In some ways, this is kinda like the situation with Wolverine Pre-ORIGIN. With ORIGIN being the series where we find out Wolverine's backstory, and his real name being James Howlett, ect. It's ok, but being a kid who really got into X-Men in 1992 with the comics and Animated Series, I still prefer that guy who didn't really know a lot about his mysterious past. Who was said to have memory implants, and who genuinely did not know what sort of person he was, or what memories were truth or implanted fiction? I don't know, but sometimes not having everything spelled out for a character's past and history can actually be seen as a advantage character-wise, rather than anything related to a hindrance.

Having said all that, and especially looking back in retrospect on Star Wars following Disney's own trilogy debacle, I kinda wish Lucas would have just went ahead and green lit the sequel trilogy rather than the prequel trilogy back in 1999. I think seeing Luke, Leia, Han, at the ages Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford were back then would have been interesting. These were character's people were invested in for over 2 decades at that stage, and seeing them return, under that time frame, would have been something. Plus, Lucas can handle a little something called, "cohesion" in terms of a trilogy. Rather than the piecemeal sequel trilogy we got under Disney. I think if Lucas had already made the sequel trilogy, then selling Star Wars to Disney with the prequels being the hot ticket item, I think they would have been forced to go into them with an actual plan, or at the very least, story points that have to be followed, since it's essentially leading into the OT.

Maybe I am giving Disney way too much credit by even assuming that much, but I do like Rogue One for the most part. Which can probably be written off as a 'happy accident' considering it's troubled production.

My view is that Star Wars was well on its way to becoming a movie series roughly comparable to Planet Of The Apes in the late eighties. I think a lot of straight lines can be drawn between SW and POTA from the standpoint of where consumer interest was heading. In the nineties, POTA was a C-list franchise at best.

But by fate or by luck, Lucas avoided that outcome with the early nineties Star Wars renaissance. In retrospect, Star Wars in the nineties is almost a case study in how to develop and nurture a dormant franchise back into massive cultural prominence.

I stand by my thesis: if Lucas had released The Phantom Menace in 1999 without the EU novels of the early 90's, the Dark Horse comics of the mid 90's and the Special Editions of the late 90's to prime the fanboy pump, the movie would've been lucky to hit half the numbers it ultimately reached. Profitable, yes, but nowhere near the juggernaut that it was.

As things stand now, POTA has greatly benefited from the more recent films. That series has a legit fanbase now that didn't exist twenty years ago. And, as has been said, Star Wars is trending toward obscurity. As someone from a different possibly resurgent franchise says, "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."

[The Dark Knight]

Having said all that, and especially looking back in retrospect on Star Wars following Disney's own trilogy debacle, I kinda wish Lucas would have just went ahead and green lit the sequel trilogy rather than the prequel trilogy back in 1999. I think seeing Luke, Leia, Han, at the ages Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford were back then would have been interesting. These were character's people were invested in for over 2 decades at that stage, and seeing them return, under that time frame, would have been something. Plus, Lucas can handle a little something called, "cohesion" in terms of a trilogy. Rather than the piecemeal sequel trilogy we got under Disney. I think if Lucas had already made the sequel trilogy, then selling Star Wars to Disney with the prequels being the hot ticket item, I think they would have been forced to go into them with an actual plan, or at the very least, story points that have to be followed, since it's essentially leading into the OT.

There was a sense the franchise was done. ROTJ had a conclusion most people were satisfied with. The Emperor was killed, Luke defeated Vader, they both found peace, and Han and Leia lived happily ever after. The prequels were made but it was understood by all they were closing the loop, and that loop ended with ROTJ.

By the time of 2005, most people, including myself, thought the filmic brand was over. And we had good reason to think that. But I had certainty the brand would live on with videogames and other merchandise.

Nobody is going to now and pretend they weren't excited about Hamill, Ford and Fischer were announced to return. It was a thrill. But that thrill was fumbled, and provided an inferior ending that rips off ROTJ's warm blanket that had been on since 1983.

The dream scenario became a nightmare. If you're going to extend the loop, which was neat and tidy – no matter what one thinks of the prequels, make sure you have a strong plan. Because Disney really were dealing with childhoods here. Star Wars is a fairytale at heart, and the heart of that being ripped out is why there's the bad taste in the fan base now. Memories become corrupted.   

And, as has been said, Star Wars is trending toward obscurity. As someone from a different possibly resurgent franchise says, "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."

Hoping for a title reveal and teaser trailer in December/January.

[Silver Nemesis]

Star Wars was one of those things, that I got into not during it's peak popularity (wasn't even born yet), or during it's resurgence in the mid 1990's, but during it's 'dark period' in the very early 1990's where literally anything related to Star Wars was far and few in between (novels and maybe insider magazines).

I got into Star Wars around the same time as you, Joker. It was the early-mid nineties and a friend at primary school introduced me to a model shop that sold second-hand Star Wars action figures from the old Kenner line. I used to save up my pocket money to buy them after school. I've still got the original Millennium Falcon (though it's missing the roof from the rear section), an AT-AT and an AT-ST. The catalyst for me becoming interested in the films was the Star Wars video game for the NES. Nowadays everyone dumps on that game and says it's terrible, but as a kid I loved it. The first Star Wars movie I ever saw was Return of the Jedi, which I remember seeing on video in the late eighties. Then I saw the second half of Empire on TV on Christmas Eve, either 1990 or 1991, and it scared the hell out of me. The last one I saw was the 1977 original. Obviously that's not the ideal order to watch them in, but back then I didn't mind. I also used to watch the Droids animated series, though I can barely remember it now.

Star Wars comics were harder to come by back then, but my mum managed to find an issue to cheer me up when I had to have a tooth filled at the dentist one day. I think this was the first Star Wars comic I ever read.

Dark Horse started publishing new comics like Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi (these are much better than any of the recent Marvel comics), and new Star Wars novels started appearing in book shops. Timothy Zahn's Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy became bestsellers, and there was also a series of shorter Star Wars novels for kids written by Paul Davids and Hollace Davids. I used to like these.

They all took place after Episode VI and were a billion times better than the Disney Sequel Trilogy. Then Super Star Wars came out and reawakened interest in the gaming side of the IP. The Super Star Wars games were followed by Shadows of the Empire, which paved the way for the Special Editions, then the Prequel Trilogy. But it's true that back in the early nineties the hype around Star Wars had died down. Batman and Star Trek were bigger pop culture events back then. In retrospect, it was a great time for kids to discover Star Wars, because the unaltered theatrical cuts were readily available and there wasn't the endless onslaught of spinoff films and TV shows to devalue the originals. If kids wanted to know more about Star Wars back then, they had to seek it out on their own. And clearly many of us did.

My view is that Star Wars was well on its way to becoming a movie series roughly comparable to Planet Of The Apes in the late eighties. I think a lot of straight lines can be drawn between SW and POTA from the standpoint of where consumer interest was heading. In the nineties, POTA was a C-list franchise at best.

I remember Mark Hamill saying in a number of documentaries that he was amazed when he realised Star Wars was going to be bigger than Planet of the Apes, and this always confused me as a kid. Because in my lifetime, POTA has never been anywhere near as huge and popular as Star Wars. But then, almost a decade ago, I saw the excellent Behind the Planet of the Apes (1998) documentary that was produced for the 30th anniversary of the original film, and that put everything in perspective. By a strange coincidence, I've just finished re-watching the original five POTA movies a couple of nights ago, and I capped them off by watching Behind the Planet of the Apes again. This documentary shows that POTA was basically Star Wars before Star Wars. As Simpsons writer and producer Bill Oakley once observed:

When I was a tiny little kid, it was thrilling. There weren't many sci-fi movies to begin with, and nerd culture didn't exist. This was before Star Wars. When you were 6 or 7, this is what you liked before Star Wars, because it was the only thing like that. It was a cool franchise with astronauts and rockets and they went to different planets, and you could get the action figures. That kind of stuff didn't have a lot of mainstream appeal back then.

Also, almost every person in America has heard of Planet of the Apes and had an idea of what the ending was, or what the gist of it was, like Star Wars. And at that time, before the Tim Burton remake and the prequels, it had this camp-classic status. All the lines like, "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!" occupied a rare place in pop culture.

https://www.vulture.com/2017/07/the-simpsons-planet-of-the-apes-musical-oral-history-zauis.html

Before POTA, big sci-fi movies generally didn't get sequels. There were sequels to some of the smaller budget sci-fi horror films, such as The Quatermass Xperiment (1955) or The Fly (1958), but big Hollywood blockbuster sci-fi films like Forbidden Planet (1956) didn't usually get any. Japan had the Godzilla series and Britain had the sixties Doctor Who movies, but those were made with comparatively small budgets and weren't big Hollywood productions. Then along comes POTA, and between 1968 and 1973 20th Century Fox belts out five movies followed by a live action TV show and the Return to the Planet of the Apes animated series.

In many ways, POTA was the first modern sci-fi film franchise. There'd been licensed merchandise for earlier sci-fi movies, but not on this scale. Remember Kenner's extremely successful series of four-inch Star Wars action figures? Well there was a very similar earlier toy line based on POTA that included vehicles and playsets. There were also POTA lunchboxes, model kits, records, trading cards, masks, chewing gum, board games, posters, colouring-in books and a Marvel Comics tie-in series.

Film historians often remark on the revolutionary Star Wars merchandising campaign, but it was really just following the business model established by the POTA franchise. I suppose one of the reasons POTA hasn't been that popular in my lifetime is precisely because of Star Wars. POTA peaked in popularity around 1975, and then Star Wars came along and totally eclipsed it.

However, the fact that POTA is still not as popular as some of the other big franchises is actually a good sign. We've had three superb POTA films in the past decade, none of which came close to touching Star Wars or Marvel at the box office. But unlike the modern Star Trek films, the recent POTA trilogy didn't try to be something it wasn't. It didn't try to make POTA more like Star Wars or dumb it down for a wider audience. Instead the trilogy stayed true to the series' own unique identity. The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy may have blown the POTA Prequel Trilogy away at the box office, but which will be remembered more fondly twenty years from now?

As things stand now, POTA has greatly benefited from the more recent films. That series has a legit fanbase now that didn't exist twenty years ago. And, as has been said, Star Wars is trending toward obscurity. As someone from a different possibly resurgent franchise says, "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."

Definitely. Planet of the Apes is the only classic movie franchise I can think of whose batting average actually improved over the last decade. Star Wars, Star Trek, Alien and Terminator emerged from the 2010s with a higher number of bad films than they had at the start of it, but POTA ended up with more good films.

Pre-2010:
Planet of the Apes (1968) – excellent
Beneath the Planet of the Apes (1970) – poor
Escape from the Planet of the Apes (1971) – very good
Conquest of the Planet of the Apes (1972) – decent
Battle for the Planet of the Apes (1973) – decent
Planet of the Apes (2001) – poor

And then in the 2010s:
Rise of the Planet of the Apes (2011) – very good
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014) – very good
War for the Planet of the Apes (2017) – very good, bordering on excellent

They should of course stop at this point. But they won't. Disney now owns the rights to POTA and doubtless they'll reboot it any day now. Then we'll watch as the series' impressive good:bad ratio gets inverted.

The dream scenario became a nightmare. If you're going to extend the loop, which was neat and tidy – no matter what one thinks of the prequels, make sure you have a strong plan. Because Disney really were dealing with childhoods here. Star Wars is a fairytale at heart, and the heart of that being ripped out is why there's the bad taste in the fan base now. Memories become corrupted.   

This is very sad but true. The OT is like a beautiful cottage that once commanded delightful views of unspoilt countryside. The original cottage is still there, only now the real estate developer has destroyed the surrounding fields in order to encircle it with poor quality imitation houses. You can go back to the original cottage, but you can no longer see the original views because of the surrounding eyesores blocking your line of sight in every direction. The original cottage remains standing, but the context surrounding it has changed – it no longer feels unique and the bucolic simplicity that once encompassed it has given way to a grotesque urban development.

Star Wars circa 1983.

Star Wars now.

[The Joker]

My view is that Star Wars was well on its way to becoming a movie series roughly comparable to Planet Of The Apes in the late eighties. I think a lot of straight lines can be drawn between SW and POTA from the standpoint of where consumer interest was heading. In the nineties, POTA was a C-list franchise at best.

But by fate or by luck, Lucas avoided that outcome with the early nineties Star Wars renaissance. In retrospect, Star Wars in the nineties is almost a case study in how to develop and nurture a dormant franchise back into massive cultural prominence.

I stand by my thesis: if Lucas had released The Phantom Menace in 1999 without the EU novels of the early 90's, the Dark Horse comics of the mid 90's and the Special Editions of the late 90's to prime the fanboy pump, the movie would've been lucky to hit half the numbers it ultimately reached. Profitable, yes, but nowhere near the juggernaut that it was.

There's really no denying that. Lucas was very astute, and managed Star Wars very well during the '90s resurgence-pre Episode 1 time period. It's a period of time for Star Wars that I find myself having increasingly nostalgia for. Where the brand was very much alive and vital, but carefully handled, and not overtly saturated and ultimately devalued.

It wasn't so much the case of Lucas building to Episode 1, but rather keeping the brand very much in the public consciousness. To where when TPM finally made it's debut, the interest was already cocked, locked, and ready to rock.

There was a sense the franchise was done. ROTJ had a conclusion most people were satisfied with. The Emperor was killed, Luke defeated Vader, they both found peace, and Han and Leia lived happily ever after. The prequels were made but it was understood by all they were closing the loop, and that loop ended with ROTJ.

By the time of 2005, most people, including myself, thought the filmic brand was over. And we had good reason to think that. But I had certainty the brand would live on with videogames and other merchandise.

The prequels were successful, but Lucas remained adamant that Episodes 1-6 was the story of Anakin. A beginning, middle, and end. As you say, the loop was complete. My personal expectations, was that the post-2005 time period of Star Wars, was going to be similar, but not exactly like the early '90's-1999 period of Star Wars. Where the brand was going to take a more low key approach with continuing on with books/comics, animated series', and perhaps a live action tv show or two. But as far as actual films, those days were done. As per the CEO was stating in interviews himself.

Nobody is going to now and pretend they weren't excited about Hamill, Ford and Fischer were announced to return. It was a thrill. But that thrill was fumbled, and provided an inferior ending that rips off ROTJ's warm blanket that had been on since 1983.

Oh the possibilities! *sigh*

I will say that, yeah, ROTJ provided the storybook ending to the fairy tale that is Star Wars. It's about as idyllic of an ending one could hope for by the conclusion. The Disney trilogy, as the follow up, brought about a much more cynical vision in it's introductory episode which was ok, though not ideal, if there was an actual plan/idea to lessen that prevailing sentiment in the succeeding chapters.

Then we got TLJ thrown into our laps.   

I got into Star Wars around the same time as you, Joker. It was the early-mid nineties and a friend at primary school introduced me to a model shop that sold second-hand Star Wars action figures from the old Kenner line. I used to save up my pocket money to buy them after school. I've still got the original Millennium Falcon (though it's missing the roof from the rear section), an AT-AT and an AT-ST. The catalyst for me becoming interested in the films was the Star Wars video game for the NES. Nowadays everyone dumps on that game and says it's terrible, but as a kid I loved it. The first Star Wars movie I ever saw was Return of the Jedi, which I remember seeing on video in the late eighties. Then I saw the second half of Empire on TV on Christmas Eve, either 1990 or 1991, and it scared the hell out of me. The last one I saw was the 1977 original. Obviously that's not the ideal order to watch them in, but back then I didn't mind. I also used to watch the Droids animated series, though I can barely remember it now.

Star Wars comics were harder to come by back then, but my mum managed to find an issue to cheer me up when I had to have a tooth filled at the dentist one day. I think this was the first Star Wars comic I ever read.

Dark Horse started publishing new comics like Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi (these are much better than any of the recent Marvel comics), and new Star Wars novels started appearing in book shops. Timothy Zahn's Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy became bestsellers, and there was also a series of shorter Star Wars novels for kids written by Paul Davids and Hollace Davids. I used to like these.

They all took place after Episode VI and were a billion times better than the Disney Sequel Trilogy. Then Super Star Wars came out and reawakened interest in the gaming side of the IP. The Super Star Wars games were followed by Shadows of the Empire, which paved the way for the Special Editions, then the Prequel Trilogy. But it's true that back in the early nineties the hype around Star Wars had died down. Batman and Star Trek were bigger pop culture events back then. In retrospect, it was a great time for kids to discover Star Wars, because the unaltered theatrical cuts were readily available and there wasn't the endless onslaught of spinoff films and TV shows to devalue the originals. If kids wanted to know more about Star Wars back then, they had to seek it out on their own. And clearly many of us did.

I'm glad you mentioned Shadows of the Empire, because man, that one was definitely hyped as almost like being a actual Star Wars movie during that early '90s-Pre Episode 1 era. I mean, SOTE wasn't no where near on the level as TPM, but the merch for Shadows was extremely prevalent. Books, comics, action figures, video games, ect. And this was only one year before the 1997 Special Editions. Which I still remember being pretty packed at each screening I went to. I also recall the success of the 1997 SE's being cheap comedic material for late night talk show comedians, as the overall joke was that people were flocking to theaters to see a movie they probably own on VHS/laserdisc at home. Titanic got a little bit of this as well if memory serves (how does the movie end? The ship sinks of course! har har), but I remember the SE jokes more since Star Wars was where my interest lay.

I think even by 1997 standards, it was pretty much understood that the OT Star Wars trilogy was something 'special'. To me, what distinguishes Star Wars from POTA (or something like JAWS to some lesser extent), was that Star Wars wasn't a cultural phenomenon that continued on and on with subsequent films that lead to  diminishing returns to the point where the franchise that once shined so bright, unceremoniously burned out. No. Star Wars simply scaled back following ROTJ to the point that it went fully dormant. Literally choosing to do so, while not overstaying it's welcome, or oversaturating the brand. Only to return in the early '90s following it's 'dark period', and methodically reestablish itself back into the public consciousness until it was fully ready for prime time again. Pretty much an example of 4d chess. 

[Silver Nemesis]

I'm glad you mentioned Shadows of the Empire, because man, that one was definitely hyped as almost like being a actual Star Wars movie during that early '90s-Pre Episode 1 era. I mean, SOTE wasn't no where near on the level as TPM, but the merch for Shadows was extremely prevalent. Books, comics, action figures, video games, ect. And this was only one year before the 1997 Special Editions.

Yeah, I remember reading an article about the entire project once where it was described as a movie without a movie. Like you say, they had everything you'd expect in terms of tie-in merchandise – toys, a novelisation, a comic book, an orchestral soundtrack, but no film to go with it. Joel McNeely's score was outstanding.

In a sense, the merchandising campaign for Shadows of the Empire was like a dry run for the release of the Special Editions. A taster to whet fans' appetites. The Episode IV SE also includes a couple of nods to Shadows of the Empire in the form of the swoop biker riding through Mos Eisley and the blink-and-you'll-miss-it cameo by Dash Rendar's ship, the Outrider.

I think even by 1997 standards, it was pretty much understood that the OT Star Wars trilogy was something 'special'. To me, what distinguishes Star Wars from POTA (or something like JAWS to some lesser extent), was that Star Wars wasn't a cultural phenomenon that continued on and on with subsequent films that lead to  diminishing returns to the point where the franchise that once shined so bright, unceremoniously burned out. No. Star Wars simply scaled back following ROTJ to the point that it went fully dormant. Literally choosing to do so, while not overstaying it's welcome, or oversaturating the brand. Only to return in the early '90s following it's 'dark period', and methodically reestablish itself back into the public consciousness until it was fully ready for prime time again. Pretty much an example of 4d chess.

The Back to the Future Trilogy enjoys a similar dignity these days to what the Star Wars OT used to have back in the mid-nineties. Look at the affection people heaped on those films back in 2015 when BttF Day arrived. No one needed a new movie to be released – just the unaltered originals to enjoy on DVD. The fact BttF ended at the right time, and hasn't been tainted since, is part of what makes it so special. I wish Star Wars still had that purity.

[The Dark Knight]

Oh the possibilities! *sigh*

I will say that, yeah, ROTJ provided the storybook ending to the fairy tale that is Star Wars. It's about as idyllic of an ending one could hope for by the conclusion. The Disney trilogy, as the follow up, brought about a much more cynical vision in it's introductory episode which was ok, though not ideal, if there was an actual plan/idea to lessen that prevailing sentiment in the succeeding chapters.

If a sequel trilogy had to be made, the obvious route would've been Luke as a successful Jedi with a school of students, with rooms full of relics. I don't mind TLJ's Luke and his arc as a separate character in a one-off film, but connected to a greater franchise? It doesn't work, and the fan response proved that.

TROS truly is an inferior remake of ROTJ which doesn't progress the story forward one inch. The Emperor is killed again and there's still only one Jedi left. So what was the point?

TLJ Luke is a poor imitation of TDK Returns Batman because his arc doesn't have a satisfying payoff.

Luke does nothing. Once he arrives on the island he never leaves.

Batman retires due to Todd's death.
Luke runs away after the Temple arson.

The problem I have with the foundation of Luke's depression is the brazen dereliction of duty given the immediacy of what had just transpired. From what I know, he didn't pursue Ben or Snoke and their plans only escalated from there. At the time of Batman's retirement the city could have been under relative control.

Classic villains like the Joker did calm down with his absence, justifying a retirement brought upon by guilt. The new kids on the block revived Gotham's issues. But in Luke's case, the situation was still hot and he went cold. As a Jedi he is directly responsible due to his inaction. He dropped a live investigation.

Batman mentors Carrie and takes all the Mutant Leader's followers as his.
Luke knowingly attempted a very brief training of a Palpatine after the situation with Ben.
He snaps at Rey and she runs away, instead relying on old books for guidance.

We're meant to believe a hologram projection in which he fades away unceremoniously strengthens Luke's legend, whereas Batman attracts the attention of the US Government and defeats Superman in combat. I know what I find more worthy of legend status. TLJ doesn't build sympathy for Luke's situation and the plot leaves any redemption way too late.

[thecolorsblend]

Yeah, I remember reading an article about the entire project once where it was described as a movie without a movie. Like you say, they had everything you'd expect in terms of tie-in merchandise – toys, a novelisation, a comic book, an orchestral soundtrack, but no film to go with it. Joel McNeely's score was outstanding.

My understanding of the behind the scenes baloney going on with SOTE is that merchandising partners had been expecting product and weren't going to get it.

Basically, Young Indy had given Lucasfilm a very misplaced level of confidence in their ability to deliver all three prequel films in consecutive years. What Lucasfilm had underestimated was the amount of pre-production needed for each film, the R&D required for the CGI Lucas envisioned, George's own ability to break the stories and finalize three entire scripts singlehanded and other technical stuff.

Bottom line, the original target release dates of 1997-1999 to release all three prequels was soon understood to be hopelessly unrealistic. Back to the drawing board.

Except all those merch partners had invested some scratch in Lucasfilm and they couldn't go six years without some kind of ROI.

So, Lucas (or somebody) devised a two-pronged solution.

Second, there was the Special Edition releases. There's a LOT of drama that went on with that. Pain in the nuts doesn't even begin to describe it.

But first, obviously, was SOTE. A toy line, novelization, video game, all the stuff that the partners had been promised for the prequels. Basically, SOTE was meant to pacify them while pre-production continued for TPM.

And in retrospect, it wasn't a bad 1-2-3 punch. SOTE in 1996, the SE's in 1997 and then TPM in 1999. At that time, anything Star Wars was basically like printing money so I have to imagine the partners probably didn't mind too much.

As to SOTE itself, man, I've never been big on EU stuff but SOTE is a quality item. I speak mostly of the novelization as I never played the game (aside from the Hoth demo) and I've never been one for Star Wars comics. But the novel could easily have been adapted as an animated film (Episode 5.5?) and been a knock-out. Great book, great score.

The Back to the Future Trilogy enjoys a similar dignity these days to what the Star Wars OT used to have back in the mid-nineties. Look at the affection people heaped on those films back in 2015 when BttF Day arrived. No one needed a new movie to be released – just the unaltered originals to enjoy on DVD. The fact BttF ended at the right time, and hasn't been tainted since, is part of what makes it so special. I wish Star Wars still had that purity.

BTTF fans seem stridently opposed to the idea of a fourth film, even if it included the OG cast and crew. They know they have a good thing going and they don't want to mess it up.

And the thing is, the creative forces behind BTTF seem keenly aware of the risk. I read somewhere something like Zemeckis went out of his way to make various rights and other legal mumbo jumbo related to BTTF an absolute fuster-cluck to where anybody who attempts a reboot or sequel would be in for the devil's own logistical nightmare. The result is that, at least for now, BTTF can retain all its original purity and whatever it was that people loved won't be spoiled.

If only other franchises could've been so lucky...