Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[The Joker]

Amusing video addressing Disney's sequel trilogy.

[Silver Nemesis]

That moment perfectly illustrates Abrams' predilection for scenes that appeal to nostalgia for their emotional impact, but make no sense when you stop and think about them. First of all, why did Rey go to Tatooine? She has no personal connection to that planet and never spoke to Luke about it. She buries Anakin and Leia's lightsabers there. Why? Anakin hated Tatooine. It's the planet where he spent his childhood as a slave and where his mother was tortured and killed. The whole point of Obi-Wan hiding Luke there was that he knew it was the one planet Vader would never return to. Rey might as well have buried his lightsaber on Mustafar for all the happy associations it held for Anakin. And to add insult to injury, she buries it in sand. And we all know how Anakin felt about sand.

And why bury Leia's lightsaber there? Leia had no personal connection to Tatooine either. She went there briefly in Episode VI, but it wasn't a particularly pleasant experience for her.

Now if Rey had buried Luke's green lightsaber on Tatooine, then that might have made sense. But that's not what happens. And how did Maz Kanata get hold of Anakin's lightsaber in the first place? They skipped over that detail in Episode VII and still haven't explained it. I know this was probably covered in a comic or tie-in book, but it should have been explained in the films.

So then this old woman just happens to be passing the farm. Again, why? The Lars homestead is situated in the middle of a desert. Why would a frail old woman be wandering through the wasteland on her own? She asks Rey who she is, and Rey replies that she is a Skywalker. Except she isn't. Then we see her walk off into the twin sunset in a final shot that rehashes the ending of the PT. The final shot of Revenge of the Sith did get an emotional response out of me. It made sense in the context of the story and was a nice way of bringing things full circle to connect the PT with the OT.

By contrast, the rehashing of this moment in Episode IX made no sense and stank of recycled sentiment. It was a hollow and unimaginative way of ending the ST. But then the ST as a whole was hollow and unimaginative, so I guess it really is the perfect ending.

Returning to this point, I think it would have made far more sense for the final scene of Episode IX to have taken place on Naboo rather than Tatooine. I dislike how the Disney films never referenced any of the planets from the PT except Mustafar (apparently the planet at the beginning of Episode IX is meant to be Mustafar, though that fact isn't clearly communicated in the film itself). It felt disrespectful to Lucas to exclude such important elements from his saga. Abrams shows Bespin during the celebratory finale, but not Naboo or Cosuscant. Why? Bespin featured in the final act of one film in the OT and was never even mentioned in the ST (as far as I remember). So why show it during the finale? By contrast, Naboo and Coruscant were integral to the events of the PT and were far more interesting and well realised planets than any that we saw in the ST.

I can think of several reasons why the final scene of Episode IX should have taken place on Naboo rather than Tatooine. Firstly, if you watch the films in chronological order, as Lucas intended, then Naboo is the very first planet to appear. Having it be the final planet to appear in the ST would have brought the story full circle and ended things on a pleasing note of symmetry.

Secondly, Rey had no connection to Tatooine whatsoever, but she did have a connection to Naboo. It was Palpatine's home planet, which makes it her ancestral seat. Having Rey go there at the end of the ST would have been a good way to show her confronting the truth of her lineage and taking ownership of it.

Thirdly, Leia had no connection to Tatooine either, and it was the planet Anakin hated most in the galaxy. Obviously Rey couldn't have buried Leia's lightsaber on Alderaan, but surely Naboo was the next best thing. It was the birthplace of Luke and Leia's mother, and it was a place that held happy memories for Anakin – it was the planet where he courted Padme and where the two of them were secretly wed. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave Anakin and Leia's lightsabers there than on Tatooine?

I see three ways they could have handled this scene. The first would be to have Rey bury the lightsabers in the meadow where Anakin and Padme had their picnic in Episode II. That was a beautiful, peaceful location that held happy memories for the Skywalker family. Instead of the old woman walking by, it could have been an older, more sombre version of Jar Jar (the Gungan, not Abrams).

The second option would be to have Rey hurl the lightsabers into the water at the Varykino lakeside retreat where Anakin and Padme were married. The passing of the blade from father to son has always held Arthurian connotations, and having Rey do this would have mirrored Sir Bedivere hurling Excalibur into the lake at Arthur's behest following the Battle of Camlann.

But the third and best approach would have been to have Rey inter the two lightsabers at Padme's mausoleum in Theed.

I'd have written it so Rey goes into the tomb and sees Padme's likeness smiling down on her.

She uses her Force powers to open a small gap in the sarcophagus, just large enough to accommodate a single crepuscular ray that illuminates the japor snippet resting within.

Rey then Force levitates the two lightsabers to lower them through the aperture before resealing it. She looks up and sees three Force ghosts standing beside the sarcophagus: Luke and Leia, with their father Anakin standing between them (it was established in Episode VI than Anakin became a Force ghost, so it makes no sense to exclude him from the ST). The three ghosts smile at Rey, and she smiles back at them. I suppose you could also include the ghost of Ben Solo if you really wanted to. We then end on a final shot of Rey standing beside the likeness of Padme as the Force ghosts of Luke, Leia, Anakin and Ben slowly fade from sight. Iris transition to credits.

No dialogue. No "Rey Skywalker". Just a touching farewell to the main heroes from all three trilogies. That would have been vastly superior to what we got IMO.

[thecolorsblend]

If I had to guess, I'd say that the reason that Anakin's ghost never appears is due to the question of plays him. It can't be Sebastian Shaw. But for a lot of fans, Anakin's ghost is played by Shaw, period. And I suspect that Abrams is one of those people who rejects the Special Edition changes and tries to use them as little as possible.

Having said that, your endings do sound far superior to anything we got in the actual movie.

In the final analysis, the Disney trilogy broke the fandom. I don't know if there's any fixing this stuff.

[Silver Nemesis]

Abrams is definitely an OT fan boy, and his inability to move beyond those films is strongly reminiscent of Bryan Singer's inability to move beyond Richard Donner's work when plotting Superman Returns. Abrams seemed determined not to reference anything from the Special Editions or PT when making Episodes VII and IX. Speaking as a fan of the unaltered OT, I understand this attitude. But in taking that exclusionary approach, he disrespected Lucas' vision and squandered the opportunity to legitimise/fix elements from the PT and bring them in to harmony with the other films. I can imagine Abrams being the kind of fan who would prefer Shaw's performance over Christensen's (I expect most of us do, although I enjoy Hayden's performance in Revenge of the Sith), but since he used Christensen as the voice of Anakin's Force ghost anyway he should have just had him appear on screen. According to some online sources, Christensen did shoot several scenes for Rise of Skywalker, but they were all edited out when Bob Iger panicked and ordered the film recut just weeks before the theatrical release.

Episode IX doesn't make me angry. It just makes me sad. There's so much wasted potential here. And the most heartbreaking thing of all is that there will be no do-overs. Fans have been waiting for a sequel to Return of the Jedi since 1983. The filmmakers had one chance to get it right and they screwed it up. Now they can never go back and redo it. Hamill's too old, Fisher's dead, and Harrison Ford is, well, Harrison Ford. The glory days of Star Wars are long gone. And while the brand may eventually regain some quality in the form of books, comics, games or TV shows, the movie series has well and truly had its day.

In the final analysis, the Disney trilogy broke the fandom. I don't know if there's any fixing this stuff.

There could be another decent Star Wars movie eventually, but the cinematic brand as a whole will never regain the prestige it once had. Not when the number of bad Star Wars movies outweighs the number of good ones, which is the situation as it now stands.

[The Dark Knight]

There could be another decent Star Wars movie eventually, but the cinematic brand as a whole will never regain the prestige it once had. Not when the number of bad Star Wars movies outweighs the number of good ones, which is the situation as it now stands.

Absolutely true. It cannot be overstated how poorly the ST was rolled out now we can fully assess this as a three film package. TROS came and went. Based on the plot summary, it is overstuffed, full of fakeouts and leaves us back at ROTJ with no growth.

Some general thoughts:

I would have started TFA with Luke's Jedi school full of relics he had gathered since ROTJ. Tons of relics showing everything he'd been up to. A school with many students. And the threat of Snoke means they all team up to fight the threat - "this is what I've been training you for, padawans." They overcome the threat and we learn that the school concept expanded across the galaxy with Luke's students then training others.

Disney, in their eagerness to just repeat the CT, couldn't get away from the idea that Jedi are just people for dark siders to hunt down and betray. That was a huge mistake.

Blowing up the New Republic in The Force Awakens was also a huge mistake. It robbed us the chance of getting all those political components that made the PT so interesting. We could've seen how the new government differed from the past in terms of policy and their relationship with a newly formed Jedi academy. But instead we got the status quo and emptiness.

I collected these critiques from my own research:

1. How did any huge chunks of DS2 land on Endor when we saw total obliteration?
2. Luke is hesitant to train anyone after Ben goes dark, but knowingly trains Palpatine's granddaughter.
3. TLJ says ships can't track through hyperspace...
4. Why does the lightsaber call to Rey if she's a Palpatine?
5. How did Lando get all these ships to help in such a short time when they didn't want to help in TLJ?
6. How did desert dweller Rey pilot the skiff in the worst sailing conditions imaginable?
7. "They fly now?!" - Disney does not read SW lore.
8. Palpatine's lightning only affects Resistance ships...
9. Palpatine only has 1 waypoint tower for his entire fleet and has to recharge after transfer...
10. Why not tilt to slide the horses off the Destroyer?
11. The theme of "be proud of who you are" is ignored - Rey Palpatine takes on the Skywalker name.

Palpatine has secret star destroyers and they are FULLY MANNED. That means 37,000 crew on board - 9,235 officers and 27,850 enlisted personnel. 9,700 stormtroopers and 46,785 crew and passengers.

Yeah...

And they rise from the ice for some reason. Why? To symbolically show 'evil rises'? They're in the unknown regions - nobody knows they're there. They all have Death Star technology. And yet they're all dispatched like an afterthought in the final battle. Remember when attacking one Death Star was a scary big deal in the CT? And why would Palpatine tell everyone he's back? His plan and the constant change of plan just seems really dumb.

And based on the Chewbacca rescue details, which goes through the motions: Agents in The Matrix are a severe threat always to be taken seriously  - they're like fighting a boss who doesn't have a health bar. Stormtroopers are an incompetent joke with poor aim - and go down after one shot. The general danger level of the franchise is further reduced with the introduction of Force healing.

Disney ignored the original creator and didn't have plan. This is the end result.

[Silver Nemesis]

I would have started TFA with Luke's Jedi school full of relics he had gathered since ROTJ. Tons of relics showing everything he'd been up to. A school with many students. And the threat of Snoke means they all team up to fight the threat - "this is what I've been training you for, padawans." They overcome the threat and we learn that the school concept expanded across the galaxy with Luke's students then training others.

Disney, in their eagerness to just repeat the CT, couldn't get away from the idea that Jedi are just people for dark siders to hunt down and betray. That was a huge mistake.

^ This times a million. The new Jedi Order was perhaps the single most intriguing avenue the ST could have explored. Leia should have been portrayed as a Jedi Master from the beginning of Episode VII, but instead Abrams had her revert to the 'command post' role she played during the Battle of Yavin. All so he could re-enact the OT.

I'd have had it so that the Jedi Order had split in to two factions following a great schism. One side would be led by Jedi Master Leia in actively trying to maintain order in the feudalistic chaos that ensued from the Empire's collapse. The other side would be led by Jedi Master Luke in favouring a noninterventionist approach; learning from the mistakes of the Clone Wars and not wanting to get involved in the violence. The galaxy would quickly grow to resent the Jedi – resenting Leia's faction for their warmongering, and resenting Luke's for their refusal to help. Eventually Leia's Jedi Order would be defeated (this would be the cliffhanger ending to Episode VIII) by a new menace (not the Sith or the Empire, but something entirely different) that is conquering the independent systems on the Outer Rim and gradually making its way towards Coruscant and the other Core Worlds. At last Leia, the only survivor of her faction, would return to Luke and together they'd lead the remaining Jedi in battle against the new threat. After defeating this menace in the final film of the trilogy, the Jedi would then pursue a more balanced role in the New Republic; not as soldiers or passive observers, but as sentinels of the peace.

But no. Instead we found out that Luke trained just two people during the 30 year period between Episodes VI and VII, and both of them quit. And then Luke quit. I'm sure there are novels and comics out there that reveal more about his attempts to create the new Jedi Order, but there's nothing about it in the films. Did Luke train other people? If so, what happened to them? Are they connected to the Knights of Ren? We're never told.

I hate how Luke got thrown under the bus to prop up the new characters in the ST.

He got owned by Leia:

He got owned by Rey:

He got owned by Ben:

Couldn't they have shown him win just one fight? Did he really have to lose every single duel throughout the ST? I know many fans will argue that Luke was holding back in all these scenes, and that may well be the case. But the fact remains that the filmmakers repeatedly showed Luke getting knocked down and humiliated by other characters, and they never once showed him triumph. Vader got his moment to shine in Rogue One, but Luke wasn't so fortunate. Remember how badass Luke was in Return of the Jedi? The Luke that almost singlehandedly took on Jabba the Hutt's army of mercenaries, including Boba Fett. The Luke that confronted the Emperor and Vader at the same time and defeated the Chosen One in combat. The Luke that vowed to pass on what he had learned to the next generation of Jedi. What happened to that guy?

Prior to the ST, I would have said Luke was my favourite hero from the Star Wars films. But now? It's Obi-Wan all the way.

Obi-Wan was awesome in both the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy, as well as the Clone Wars animated series. He didn't hail from any fancy bloodlines such as the Skywalkers or Palpatines, and he wasn't a Chosen One. He was just a solid and consistently good man who exemplified what a Jedi ought to be. Which, thanks to the ST, is more than I can say for Luke.

Blowing up the New Republic in The Force Awakens was also a huge mistake. It robbed us the chance of getting all those political components that made the PT so interesting. We could've seen how the new government differed from the past in terms of policy and their relationship with a newly formed Jedi academy. But instead we got the status quo and emptiness.

That was dreadful writing on Abrams part. He never even established what the central conflict was in the ST. What exactly is the First Order and where did it come from? How is it connected to the New Republic? If there's a New Republic, then why is there a Resistance? Are the Resistance and the New Republic connected? Why isn't the New Republic fighting the First Order? Why did the First Order target that particular planet in The Force Awakens? What was significant about that planet? Most of us assumed it was Coruscant, but apparently it was a planet called Hosnian Prime. Why was this not stated in the film? Why was the importance of Hosnian Prime not explained in the film? Why were none of these things explained?

The OT was about the war between the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance. The PT was about the war between the Separatist Movement and the Galactic Republic. Having seen all three films in the ST, I'm still not sure what the central conflict was all about. Yeah, I know it was the First Order versus the Resistance. But I don't know what either of those factions represent or why they are fighting. And when you've failed to adequately explain the central conflict in a movie called 'Star Wars' then you've really dropped the ball. This lack of clarity extends to the rest of the storytelling in the ST.

The OT was about the overthrow of the Empire and Luke Skywalker's quest to redeem his father.

The PT was about Anakin Skywalker's fall to the Dark Side, the collapse of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire.

What the hell was the ST about? What was the central narrative through line that took us from the beginning of Episode VII through to the end of Episode IX? I honestly don't know.

9. Palpatine only has 1 waypoint tower for his entire fleet and has to recharge after transfer...

This one almost made me laugh out loud in the theatre. Ok, the idea of the villains' superweapon having one obvious weak spot has factored into earlier Star Wars films. But even by the standards of the franchise, this one felt particularly absurd. The idea that the entire fleet was dependent on this one beacon to leave the planet was just ridiculous. They didn't have any other navigation equipment on board that they could use in an emergency? They couldn't have just looked out of the window and used visual references to chart a course beyond the planet's atmosphere. Really?

Disney ignored the original creator and didn't have plan. This is the end result.

One day George Lucas is going to give his honest opinion about these films. And as far as I'm concerned, that day can't come soon enough. I suspect Disney are trying to keep him away from journalists at the moment, but they can't silence him forever.

[thecolorsblend]

I understand the revisionism that says the Lucas-era Star Wars movies are Anakin's story. But really, those movies all come back to Luke. He's the most consequential character of those films. Obviously the Disney trilogy didn't do him justice.

There's really no excuse for the Disney trilogy to be as bad as it is. There were millions of ways to do the job right. A new trilogy could've gone a lot of different and compelling directions. Why the hell you'd do something like this without a plan is beyond me.

One thing Star Wars films have never done very well is show the "man on the street" perspective of galaxy-wide happenings. I'm positive that there's gold in them thar hills showing that the public maybe wasn't completely happy about the fall of the Empire. "Say whatever you want about Mussolini but at least the trains ran on time" and all that. There was a chance to expand the perspective of Star Wars films and all of it was squandered.

It does sound like The Mandalorian began delivering on some of that though. So kudos to Favreau for seeing the obvious.

Worst of all? The shills all swore that TROS would cross $1 billion by Day 23. Well, it's Day 24 and $1 billion isn't here yet. It probably will be within the next 48 hours but it's sad that it's taken this long when, by all rights, Episode 9 should be the Star Wars version of Endgame. Instead, it's TLJ-but-less-so, box office-wise.

Heartbreaking...

[Silver Nemesis]

Update: now officially the lowest rated live action Star Wars film on RT.

Of course the average rating is what really counts, and that's still higher for TROS than TPM. But even so, this doesn't reflect well on the current leadership at Lucasfilm.

[thecolorsblend]

The movie crossed the $1b threshold quite a while ago. But since then, it really has stalled out. In the US, it had its first sub-$1 million weekday on Tuesday, Jan 21, 2020. It has plummeted even more since then.

As things stand, TROS has a worldwide gross of $1.032 billion. What I find interesting though is that JOKER has a worldwide gross of $1.070 billion and it's still playing in 85 American theaters. I would find it very surprising if JOKER ends up outgrossing TROS. At this point, TROS basically needs to scrounge up another $38 million to avoid that fate. And I don't see that happening in the US. I don't think there are any more foreign markets either. So barring a miracle, it looks like JOKER could end up outgrossing TROS.

How Kathleen Kennedy even has a job at Lucasfilm anymore is anybody's guess.

[thecolorsblend]

This thread appears to have become our general Star Wars dumping ground. I leave it to the judgment of the mods whether the title should be changed to reflect that fact or if, perhaps, a new thread should be created.

In any case, in a separate thread, I expressed a growing disenchantment I've had lately with sequels. Specifically, that sequels often do more harm than good. And so it was that I rolled a grenade out there.

PS- If you really want me to get controversial, ask me how supportive I am of The Empire Strikes Back's existence (in retrospect).

I guess TDK was intrigued by that based upon the fact that he wrote:

Go for it.

Very well.

My antipathy to sequels has begun extending to Empire. Now, before I get into all that, allow me to preface my comments that Empire has been so loved, so praised, so analyzed that I simply have nothing new to offer there. It's all been said before. And frankly, I disagree with none of it. Empire is a bona fide classic and it deserves its spot on many fans' lists as the best Star Wars movie.

And yet...

Technically, the Judy Garland version of The Wizard Of Oz never got a sequel. No, the one from the eighties doesn't really count. The original Baum novels obviously allowed, nay demanded a sequel. But obviously, it never happened. Theoretically, it could've. But it didn't.

And that fact, the reality that, whatever Baum's original intentions might've been, The Wizard Of Oz exists as a standalone piece has, I believe, ENHANCED the film's legacy and legend. If TWOO was simply the first in a series of films, I believe it would've suffered. I don't think it would be regarded today as a classic. Or, perhaps, not as much of a classic. Even if the subsequent follow-up films delivered the goods and were of equal quality to TWOO (and right there, you're well nigh into fantasy territory of your own), the simple fact that TWOO is no longer an immaculate, standalone piece would ultimately harm TWOO's legacy as arguably the definitive Golden Age Of Hollywood film that we consider it to be today.

I submit to all of you that something similar happened to Star Wars '77. The instant Lucas put pencil to yellow notepad for the rough draft of Empire, SW77 lost something that could never be recovered. SW77 became a runaway success, almost universally beloved by audiences worldwide. But the minute Empire exists at all, SW77 is no longer special. It's now just the first one.

Unfortunately, it gets worse from there. Empire was a tremendous success in its own right. Which led to Jedi.

Now, I love Jedi. But even the child-at-heart among us is probably willing to acknowledge that Jedi is a lesser work as compared to SW77 and Empire. Jedi is where the rot set in.

The prequels. Oh, the prequels. Some love them, some hate them, some (like me) simply have a boatload of issues with them. But no matter how you slice it, the prequels are a complicated subject for virtually all Star Wars fans.

More? Yeah, there's more.

Disney. As I say, by sheer virtue of existing, quality be damned, Empire ruined SW77's immaculate reality. But at least Empire is a worthwhile film. And Jedi is still entertaining. Sure, the prequels may not be perfect but, hey, they wrap up the story in a mostly satisfying way, amirite?

But Disney. Disney has basically killed the golden goose. Blame can be assigned for that in any manner you see fit but the fact remains that Disney has ruined the franchise. Solo lost money. There's no denying it, there's no sugarcoating it. Before Solo, every Star Wars film did boffo box office numbers.

After Solo, there is blood in the water.

More? Yes, I've still got more.

The nadir of this whole drama was undoubtedly JOKER. Hear me out because I love JOKER. But however you want to slice it, JOKER was a low budget crime film that, by all rights, should've been lucky to hit $400 million worldwide. And nobody would've been disappointed by that.

But not only did JOKER far exceed a paltry $400 million global take, not only did JOKER join the $1 Billion Club but JOKER HAS OUTGROSSED THREE DISNEY STAR WARS FILMS: Rogue One, Rise Of Skywalker and Solo.

The situation is so dire that COVID has probably saved Disney the considerable embarrassment of publicly announcing that feature films are going into hibernation for a while.

There's no good reason for JOKER to outgross three Star Wars films. There's certainly no good reason for JOKER to outgross the Star Wars equivalent of Endgame. Nevertheless, that's where we are right now.

If SW77 had been allowed to stand on its own without further sequels, sure, the "franchise" would definitely be less profitable than it is (or than it was, anyway). But not only would existing as a standalone piece have ultimately benefitted SW77 the same way that TWOO has benefitted from existing without a sequel but the Star Wars film series itself wouldn't have suffered the indignities it has suffered lo these past few years.

Can all of this be blamed on Empire? Of course not. As I say, Empire is a great film and I adore it. I have literally no criticisms of it. But there's just no denying that Empire opened a door that ultimately led to where we are right now: A world where Star Wars is a joke even to its most devoted fans.

Nothing lasts forever. Perhaps it's the nature of any franchise to eventually land in the crapper. Certainly that appears to be the state of affairs with Terminator, for example. So maybe we're only seeing the logical conclusion of the once mighty Star Wars franchise's reign as the undisputed king of cinema for two different generations. Maybe this was all to be expected. But no matter what, all these different roads lead back to Empire. Empire isn't bad as a film. But it is bad for what it ultimately led to.

Search your feelings, you will know it to be true.