Fighting Style of the Burton Batman

[Silver Nemesis]

There are several online videos analysing the fighting styles of the Nolanverse and DCEU Batmen, but I don't think anyone's ever done a similar breakdown for the Burton version. So this is my attempt at analysing his fighting style to ascertain precisely how many different martial arts he knows.

The fight scenes in the Burton Batman films were primarily performed by British martial artist Dave Lea. Stuntmen Sean McCabe and Mike Cassidy also contributed to these sequences, and Michael Keaton did a small amount himself. But most of the actual fighting was handled by Lea. Lea has spent his life training in a variety of different fighting techniques from across the globe, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Bruce Wayne knows all of those same styles in the Burton universe. So which martial arts does Batman actually use on screen in Batman 89 and Batman Returns?

Lea has said in interviews that he created a fighting style suited to Batman's character; one that focused on concise economical movements over flashier techniques that might needlessly expend energy. One of the martial arts he incorporated into Batman's fight style was the Malaysian discipline of HapKune Do.

HapKune Do is a style I learned in Malaysia. It's an amalgamation of all different styles put together - which suited me perfectly at the time when I was learning because I could learn everything. I had already studied the Filipino arts, studied with Dan Inosanto, studied the kicks, the flips, weapons, Kung Fu - all the time different stuff. I took all the moves and turned them into Batman moves...but you're not going to see Batman do a Tiger Claw or a Thai Boxing kick...so what I did was - whatever the move was I would turn it into a little bit more of the Batman character.

https://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/12/19/michael-keaton-stunt-double-dave-lea-interview/3

Another martial art the Burton Batman utilises is Ninjutsu. The official movie book of the 1989 film reveals that this Batman carries ninja weaponry in his utility belt, including smoke pellets and 'ninja wheels'/shuriken. He is never actually shown to use the shuriken in the finished film, but we do see at least two instances where he uses smoke pellets to evade his opponents. So this Batman is definitely a ninja.

Batman's fighting style in Batman Returns has been described as a mixture of kickboxing and street fighting. Keaton is said to have studied kickboxing under Lea's tutelage for both the 1989 film and its sequel. The particular form of kickboxing he uses appears to be a mixture of Shotokan Karate and Taekwondo.

The Burton Batman also displays a proficiency at the Filipino martial art of Escrima when dealing with blade-wielding opponents. I'm pretty sure the choreography during the fight against the swordsman is derived from Escrima.

As is this.

Although he primarily uses striking techniques, he does also occasionally incorporate grappling into his fighting style. The following move looks like an Aikido wrist throw to me, but I'm open to correction on this.

When he fights the Joker at the end of the 1989 film, he forgoes his usual quick jab punches in favour of powerful right hooks and body blows. These indicate he has some boxing skills.

So to sum up (and assuming I'm right in all this) the Burton Batman would appear to be proficient in at least seven or eight different fighting techniques: Ninjutsu, HapKune Do, Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo, Escrima, Aikido, boxing and street fighting.

More than anything else though, Bat-Keaton loves his backhand punches.

Has anyone identified any other martial arts techniques used by this version of Batman? Have I misidentified one of the disciplines I've listed above? If so, what would the correct martial art be for that particular technique? Do you like the fighting style of this Batman, or do you prefer the techniques used by a different screen version? Any and all discussion/analysis of Batman's fighting style is welcome in this thread.

[thecolorsblend]

Tbh, I wasn't aware of all that. As rather a layman, I recognized certain tae kwon do moves, like the kick before the follow up punch for the clown in BR:



It looks very similar to tae kwon do's snap-kick, which is intended to stun an opponent before following up with a more powerful blow as the finisher... which is more or less how Batman used it there. I guess it could be used as a finisher itself, as Batman used it against the swordsman in B89. Don't recommend doing that though, especially against a sword master.

Still, there are a lot of practical limitations on what Burton's Batman can do based on the outfit he's wearing. So Lea had it right, whatever fighting style is used has to take his limited movements into account.

Something else. This...

https://i.imgur.com/hA7cBi6.gif

... has always looked like aikido to me. And it adds up. Joe Rogan has said that aikido is barely a martial art so much as it's a technique for disarming an attacker who's armed with a sword. When you consider the wide and sweeping arm motions aikido depends upon, I can see that argument. And that's literally what's happening in that scene.

Batman makes a priority of immobilizing the swordsman's arms, as might be expected from aikido.

Above everything else, I don't think we should underplay the Burton Batman's reliance on boxing either. Batman can take a shot, which is a pretty significant element of boxing. Martial arts will usually emphasize blocks or evasion when being assailed by an attacker.

But boxing is a form which readily acknowledges the reality of receiving a punch from an attacker and so it instills discipline for taking it. Batman takes punches in Burton's movies and while his armor helps with those, he still has to be able to absorb the punishment and keep moving. Off-hand, I remember that the Joker, the strong man and Catwoman all punch or kick Batman and he rolls with it pretty well. To me, that SCREAMS boxing training.

[The Dark Knight]

Another great thread that shows Silver Nemesis as a Batman Online champion.

Here's my little contribution.



Batman ropes his dope inside the cathedral, but he has some impressive moves of his own. The kick is nice, but what I really like is him ducking the chain swings. Impressive reactions times from a guy who just climbed out from a crashed plane.

[Silver Nemesis]

Tbh, I wasn't aware of all that. As rather a layman, I recognized certain tae kwon do moves, like the kick before the follow up punch for the clown in BR:



It looks very similar to tae kwon do's snap-kick, which is intended to stun an opponent before following up with a more powerful blow as the finisher... which is more or less how Batman used it there. I guess it could be used as a finisher itself, as Batman used it against the swordsman in B89. Don't recommend doing that though, especially against a sword master.

I've never trained in Taekwondo myself, but I remember you mentioning in another thread that you had. So I was hoping you'd contribute to this discussion. There was a Taekwondo class that used to share a dojo with my Ju-Jitsu school, and I recall looking at their posters and noting that what seemed to really distinguish their fighting style from other martial arts was the emphasis on kicks. The finishing kick Batman uses against the swordsman always looked to me like a Taekwondo move, so I'm glad to have confirmation of that.

... has always looked like aikido to me. And it adds up. Joe Rogan has said that aikido is barely a martial art so much as it's a technique for disarming an attacker who's armed with a sword. When you consider the wide and sweeping arm motions aikido depends upon, I can see that argument. And that's literally what's happening in that scene.

Batman makes a priority of immobilizing the swordsman's arms, as might be expected from aikido.

It could very well be Aikido. When I was trying to identify this move, Aikido was the other martial art I considered. It's got to be either that or Escrima. The arm lock he uses here isn't a million miles away from some of the submission moves taught in Ju-Jitsu. But if it were Ju-Jitsu, he likely would've applied a wrist lock with his left hand and used his other hand to put pressure on the back of his opponent's elbow or shoulder. Instead he uses the momentum of his enemy's attack to twist his arm (following the initial interception, he holds his attacker's limb with just one hand instead of two) and throw him off balance, which exemplifies a central principle of Aikido – using the strength of your enemy's attack against them.

But it could also be Escrima. Dave Lea would be the guy to ask.

It's also possible that the following technique is an example of the Korean martial art Hapkido.

I've seen Aikido practitioners use this throw on several occasions (in movies and TV shows – I'm sceptical about whether it would actually work in real life), which leads me to conclude it probably is Aikido. But it might be Hapkido. Again, Dave Lea would be the one to ask.

Above everything else, I don't think we should underplay the Burton Batman's reliance on boxing either. Batman can take a shot, which is a pretty significant element of boxing. Martial arts will usually emphasize blocks or evasion when being assailed by an attacker.

But boxing is a form which readily acknowledges the reality of receiving a punch from an attacker and so it instills discipline for taking it. Batman takes punches in Burton's movies and while his armor helps with those, he still has to be able to absorb the punishment and keep moving. Off-hand, I remember that the Joker, the strong man and Catwoman all punch or kick Batman and he rolls with it pretty well. To me, that SCREAMS boxing training.

The beating he takes from the Joker goon in the cathedral would be another good example of this. At one point Batman tanks an unbroken 10-hit combo which includes numerous body blows. That's got to be the most number of consecutive hits any villain has landed on Batman in a live action fight. Boxing would offer the conditioning needed to withstand that kind of punishment.

Here's my little contribution.



Batman ropes his dope inside the cathedral, but he has some impressive moves of his own. The kick is nice, but what I really like is him ducking the chain swings. Impressive reactions times from a guy who just climbed out from a crashed plane.

That's a good observation, TDK. His situational awareness further supports the idea of Bat-Keaton having trained in boxing. One of the main environmental hazards during the cathedral fight is the wooden walls at the edge of the room. The Joker goon throws Batman through one of these at the start of their fight. Later on Batman rams the Joker's head through one, then punches him backwards through another. Bruce must've identified these structurally-unsound walls as a risk early in the battle. The moment where he's ducking to avoid the block and tackle is him luring his opponent away from that risk and into the centre of the arena, like a boxer making sure he doesn't get trapped in the corner of the ring.

Unfortunately for Batman the final Joker goon also makes excellent use of his environment. He repeatedly closes the distance between them to drive Batman up against the nearest wall or pillar, thereby trapping him and limiting his ability to manoeuvre. Batman keeps trying to get away from the Joker goon, but his enemy never lets him maintain that distance for long. This is the only one-on-one fight in the Burton films where Batman disappears and reappears mid-fight (not counting his confrontation with Napier at Axis Chemicals). In fact he does it three times. Firstly when the Joker goon throws him through the wooden wall and Batman reappears behind him and kicks him in the back. Secondly when Batman vanishes and then reappears on top of the bell. And thirdly when the Joker goon knees Batman over the ledge and Batman snares him with a head-scissor throw. This is the only time the Burton Batman had to use stealth in direct combat, and ultimately it was that stealth that secured him the victory.

Speaking of the final fight in Batman 89, does anyone think we should add wrestling to Batman's list of fighting styles? I ask because there are two notable examples in the final battle where he uses methods common to that sport. The first is where he tries to perform a flying body press off the top of the bell.

And secondly, the aforementioned head-scissor throw.

These look like wrestling moves to me.

All in all, the Burton Batman's got a fairly balanced skill set that covers strikes, throws and countermeasures for dealing with blades. If I were to highlight a weakness in his fighting style it would be his lack of a system for dealing with grappling attacks, and especially submission holds. He really needed to learn some basic Ju-Jitsu so he'd be better equipped for dealing with and applying joint locks. A couple of examples spring to mind where this deficiency is illustrated. One is when he's fighting the final Joker goon in the bell tower and keeps getting ragdolled whenever his enemy catches him in a choke hold. Batman had no method of breaking free whenever this happened.

At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.

Another example can be seen in Batman Returns where the Penguin gets him in a chokehold with his umbrella. Batman does eventually break free of this, but it takes him a while to do it and he was clearly struggling.

So I'd say some Judo or Ju-Jitsu was needed. The only other major weakness in his fighting style is his lack of mobility and agility, but obviously that's down to the limitations of his armour more than anything else.

[thecolorsblend]

I've never trained in Taekwondo myself, but I remember you mentioning in another thread that you had. So I was hoping you'd contribute to this discussion. There was a Taekwondo class that used to share a dojo with my Ju-Jitsu school, and I recall looking at their posters and noting that what seemed to really distinguish their fighting style from other martial arts was the emphasis on kicks. The finishing kick Batman uses against the swordsman always looked to me like a Taekwondo move, so I'm glad to have confirmation of that.

I think there were practical considerations behind Taekwondo's emphasis on kicks. Those types of kicks are really impractical in average physical altercation. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they're as dangerous to the user as to his opponent.

One of the few ways I can see kicks being practical moves would be if someone gets knocked off his horse and then has to defend himself from an attacker still on a horse. In that case, a roundhouse kick (or reverse kick) might be enough to knock somebody off their horse so that it's a fair fight again. After that, the school has some basic hand strikes and blocks but nothing to write home about, really. Frankly, karate would probably be the better system to use after knocking an attacker off his horse.

The only other way I could see a Taekwondo kick being effective is if the user knows his opponent is watching his shoulders and uses a kick as a surprise attack. If I hadn't seen it for myself, I would've said something absurd like Karate Kid's crane technique would never be practical in actual combat. And yet...

Yeesh, I'm getting off topic here.

It could very well be Aikido. When I was trying to identify this move, Aikido was the other martial art I considered. It's got to be either that or Escrima. The arm lock he uses here isn't a million miles away from some of the submission moves taught in Ju-Jitsu. But if it were Ju-Jitsu, he likely would've applied a wrist lock with his left hand and used his other hand to put pressure on the back of his opponent's elbow or shoulder. Instead he uses the momentum of his enemy's attack to twist his arm (following the initial interception, he holds his attacker's limb with just one hand instead of two)) and throw him off balance, which exemplifies a central principle of Aikido – using the strength of your enemy's attack against them.

Indeed. And I'm right there with you. The utter stop at the end of the swordsman's lunge leading to his immobilization is really the give away for me.

But, again, a layman.

I've seen Aikido practitioners use this throw on several occasions (in movies and TV shows – I'm sceptical about whether it would actually work in real life), which leads me to conclude it probably is Aikido. But it might be Hapkido. Again, Dave Lea would be the one to ask.

My view is never say never. Every time I think X, Y or Z move would never be practical IRL, inevitably a YouTube clip pops up showing somebody using it to devastate an opponent. There's a technique in kung fu and I have no idea what it is. But it's basically a block/strike. Depending on what you need, the same essential move can be either a block or a strike. Again, I forget the technique's name. But if you'd asked me ahead of time, I would've said there's no possible way a technique like that is useful in actual combat. And yet...

Sorry about the crap quality but that's a pretty ancient YouTube video. No idea who trained that guy. But I know enough about kung fu to know he's legit.

Again, I'm getting off-topic here. I guess the point is that one must tailor his defense to the weaknesses of his opponent. Not to get too specific, but there's a type out there who throws nothing but haymaker punches to start a fight. Rope a dope followed by counter-attack is probably enough to win 9 out of 10 of those fights.

Which just about leads us back to...

At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.

Here again I may be projecting technique where none exists. But a major element of Batman's physical conditioning has included gymnastics. If I'm a layman on martial arts, I'm hopeless with gymnastics.

And yet, Batman getting thrown like that, tucking, rolling, tumbling and springing to his feet without losing his balance looks like borderline Olympic-level gymnastics to me. And it makes sense in a way. If Burton's Batman is as talented a boxer as I have suggested, the logical companion skill for that is gymnastics. Boxing will teach you how to take a shot. Gymnastics might be useful for teaching how to roll with a grapple or a throw.

In sum, I have to agree that, surprisingly enough, Burton's Batman might be the best all around fighter we've ever seen in live action when considering his incredible range of talents. Nolan's Batman heavily relied on KFM while Schumacher's Batmen either relied on Adam West fisticuffs, acrobatics or what looks like hapkido. And then Snyder's would just pound the snot out of people using his fists so hmm.

Another example can be seen in Batman Returns where the Penguin gets him in a chokehold with his umbrella. Batman does eventually break free of this, but it takes him a while to do it and he was clearly struggling.

True, but both the burly man in the cathedral and the Penguin were stocky, heavyset attackers who (at times) used their sheer girth to their advantage to tire Batman out. The burly man attacked Batman after he survived a crash while the Penguin caught him off-guard.

I think I deleted your comments about wrestling by accident. Oops. But that is interesting. The leg-lock bit just seemed like an act of desperation. I never considered that he might've been using actual technique. I suppose my reason for that is due to the assumption I've always had that a wrestler needs more height and a thicker barrel chest than Keaton has. On that basis, wrestling seemed like a highly unusual skill for Batman to cultivate.

Then again, if he did use it against the burly man, well, you can't argue that studying wrestling didn't pay off for Batman in the end. Probably saved his life, in fact.

Boy is this post too long or what?

Disclaimer- In an effort to not look like an Internet Tough Guy, allow me to say that I've observed martial arts for a lot of my life. But the only one I ever really attempted was Taekwondo when I was kid. And it only lasted a few years. I was done probably before I turned 13.

[The Dark Knight]

At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.

What I like is how Batman is getting physically abused, but that doesn't stop the intensity of his performance. Technically he is still sound, and that is demonstrated very well via this roll. He's not shying away from the fight, because he's facing up straight away as soon as the roll is completed. He's trying to get some breathing space between himself and his foe, which is further proven by his leap from the bell. Joker goon is onto him in a flash, limiting his attack potential - again proven by Batman's choice to reappear and kick the guy in the back. Basically, the goon is the bigger man and his blows pack more punch, and that neutralizes Batman's technical ability. I'd say that's a fair trade off considering this is essentially Keaton's version of Bane.

[Silver Nemesis]

I think there were practical considerations behind Taekwondo's emphasis on kicks. Those types of kicks are really impractical in average physical altercation. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they're as dangerous to the user as to his opponent.

One of the few ways I can see kicks being practical moves would be if someone gets knocked off his horse and then has to defend himself from an attacker still on a horse. In that case, a roundhouse kick (or reverse kick) might be enough to knock somebody off their horse so that it's a fair fight again. After that, the school has some basic hand strikes and blocks but nothing to write home about, really. Frankly, karate would probably be the better system to use after knocking an attacker off his horse.

I've not really considered the historical basis for Taekwondo's high kicks before now. Taking into account Korea's military history, it makes a lot of sense.

We seldom performed high-level kicks in Ju-Jitsu. Karate, Judo and Aikido are all derived from Ju-Jitsu, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the grandfather of Japanese martial arts. For this reason the 'atemi' or striking aspect of Ju-Jitsu is pretty similar to Karate, although I think Karate practitioners expanded and evolved those techniques in their own unique way, similar to how Judo and Aikido practitioners expanded on the throws. The foot strikes in Ju-Jitsu are mostly basic front, side, step, push, roundhouse and spinning-back kicks to the groin, abdomen and chest areas. But we did also used to train in flying kicks. And I read at the time that flying kicks had evolved out of the necessity for samurai to knock mounted opponents off their horses back in feudal Japan. To kick someone off a horse you'd have to be able to jump pretty darn high, and I'm not sure I can imagine someone doing it in full armour. But supposedly some of them did.

I've always found the historical and geographical origins of martial arts fascinating. And I like to think the collection of armour in the 1989 Wayne Manor was an indicator that Bruce was also interested in the subject.

My view is never say never. Every time I think X, Y or Z move would never be practical IRL, inevitably a YouTube clip pops up showing somebody using it to devastate an opponent. There's a technique in kung fu and I have no idea what it is. But it's basically a block/strike. Depending on what you need, the same essential move can be either a block or a strike. Again, I forget the technique's name. But if you'd asked me ahead of time, I would've said there's no possible way a technique like that is useful in actual combat. And yet...

Sorry about the crap quality but that's a pretty ancient YouTube video. No idea who trained that guy. But I know enough about kung fu to know he's legit.

There appears to be a lot of uncertainty surrounding Aikido. Depending on who you're talking to, it's either one of the most effective martial arts ever or one of the worst. There was a teacher in my secondary school who taught Aikido on the side. He was probably aged in his late fifties and looked exactly like Doctor B. from the Tekken videogames.

He even wore an identical white lab coat. Which is odd, considering he taught mathematics. I never understood that. But anyway, there were all kinds of legends and rumours about how this mature, innocuous looking teacher had annihilated vicious young thugs half his age. One story I heard was that he was once strolling along the riverside minding his own business when a gang of skinheads accosted him and demanded he hand over his wallet. The story goes that he replied "Come and get it" (there's no way in hell he actually said that, but it makes the story funnier if he did) and proceeded to hospitalise the entire gang without sustaining so much as a bruise.

Now I doubt that story was true. But I do know for a fact that this same teacher once fractured the wrist of a young student who'd previously trained in other styles of martial arts. The teacher's advancing years were irrelevant. He had legitimate skills. Steven Seagal, for all the mockery his public persona attracts, is also a highly skilled practitioner of Aikido. He used to be notorious for putting people in wristlocks whenever he shook their hands. I guess it was his way of establishing his alpha male dominance, and he even did it to Chuck Norris on one occasion. Supposedly he also broke Sean Connery's wrist while training him for Never Say Never Again. I've heard far too many stories like this for me to ever dismiss Aikido as fake the way some people do.

I'd certainly never pick a fight with someone who'd mastered it.

Here again I may be projecting technique where none exists. But a major element of Batman's physical conditioning has included gymnastics. If I'm a layman on martial arts, I'm hopeless with gymnastics.

And yet, Batman getting thrown like that, tucking, rolling, tumbling and springing to his feet without losing his balance looks like borderline Olympic-level gymnastics to me. And it makes sense in a way. If Burton's Batman is as talented a boxer as I have suggested, the logical companion skill for that is gymnastics. Boxing will teach you how to take a shot. Gymnastics might be useful for teaching how to roll with a grapple or a throw.

The very first thing they teach you in Judo and Ju-Jitsu, besides basic dojo etiquette, is how to break your fall without injuring yourself. You learn how to fall sideways, backwards and forwards (there's a scene in the Star Trek episode 'Charlie X' where Kirk gives a surprisingly accurate demonstration of this to the title character). And the standard technique for falling forwards without sustaining injury is to perform a shoulder roll. Dave Lea executes one perfectly in this GIF.

In sum, I have to agree that, surprisingly enough, Burton's Batman might be the best all around fighter we've ever seen in live action when considering his incredible range of talents. Nolan's Batman heavily relied on KFM while Schumacher's Batmen either relied on Adam West fisticuffs, acrobatics or what looks like hapkido. And then Snyder's would just pound the snot out of people using his fists so hmm.

I will give credit to the stunt team on Nolan's films that Bale's Batman actually displays a broader range of martial arts techniques than any other live action Batman. By my count, he's proficient in at least ten different styles. Which is slightly more than the Burton Batman. Unfortunately his skills are not portrayed consistently, which I suspect has something to do with Bale's ego making him insist on performing his own fight scenes instead of letting his stunt double (former heavyweight Ju-Jitsu champion Buster Reeves) do it for him. Stanislavski method, and all that. This is why sometimes Nolan's Batman is portrayed as a lightning fast martial arts master...

...while other times he just staggers around like a drunken brawler.

You're right when you say he relies on the KFM too much. There's a limited move set he's particularly fond of using. But again, I think that's probably a consequence of Bale wanting to do the fights himself. His low-end combat feats are unimpressive, but his high-end performances are better than some fans give him credit for. Anyway, I'll save a more in-depth analysis of his fighting style for another thread.

True, but both the burly man in the cathedral and the Penguin were stocky, heavyset attackers who (at times) used their sheer girth to their advantage to tire Batman out. The burly man attacked Batman after he survived a crash while the Penguin caught him off-guard.

This is an important point. At around 5'9 and 160lbs, Bat-Keaton is by far the smallest live action incarnation of Batman. He's not small per se. He's just average sized. But compared to most of the other Batman actors, average size kind of is small. Some people deny that height and weight are a factor in combat. But while it's true a smaller fighter can knock out a larger opponent, size usually is a factor when it comes to grappling. Particularly if the disparity in weight is very large. So this is another potential area of weakness for Bat-Keaton.

Disclaimer- In an effort to not look like an Internet Tough Guy, allow me to say that I've observed martial arts for a lot of my life. But the only one I ever really attempted was Taekwondo when I was kid. And it only lasted a few years. I was done probably before I turned 13.

No worries. My situation's similar.

My own training during my teenage was primarily in Ju-Jitsu. I also used to take classes in Judo and have some boxing experience. But Ju-Jitsu was my main thing and I studied that for several years. My best friend back then was a 1st dan black belt in Karate, and I learned a little about Okinawan martial arts from him when we used to spar together. But all of that was a long time ago. The only martial art I've ever practiced in adulthood, besides sparring with a punch bag, is Tai Chi. So I'm definitely no expert on the subject either and I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to pass myself off as one. I'm purely an amateur, long out of practice, but with a longstanding interest in the subject.

I think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject. And anyone who has trained has a more refined appreciation for the technical skill and hard work that goes into fight choreography. Hence this thread. Ideally I'd like to have similar threads for all the other live action Batmen.

[Paul (ral)]

I think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject.

True. I've been training on and off (off at the moment lol) since childhood. I did karate as a child for several years, but to this day still remember the moves and a couple of kata with accuracy. When I started ju-jitsu in my 20's my sensei asked me if I had ever done karate due to my stance...that was something I had to unlearn.

As you have mentioned before breakfalls are the first thing you learn and the core of every class after that. A breakfall saved my life.

[thecolorsblend]

I've not really considered the historical basis for Taekwondo's high kicks before now. Taking into account Korea's military history, it makes a lot of sense.

We seldom performed high-level kicks in Ju-Jitsu. Karate, Judo and Aikido are all derived from Ju-Jitsu, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the grandfather of Japanese martial arts. For this reason the 'atemi' or striking aspect of Ju-Jitsu is pretty similar to Karate, although I think Karate practitioners expanded and evolved those techniques in their own unique way, similar to how Judo and Aikido practitioners expanded on the throws. The foot strikes in Ju-Jitsu are mostly basic front, side, step, push, roundhouse and spinning-back kicks to the groin, abdomen and chest areas. But we did also used to train in flying kicks. And I read at the time that flying kicks had evolved out of the necessity for samurai to knock mounted opponents off their horses back in feudal Japan. To kick someone off a horse you'd have to be able to jump pretty darn high, and I'm not sure I can imagine someone doing it in full armour. But supposedly some of them did.

That's my understanding as well. I recognize that these are ancient disciplines in many cases. But it's strange how a lot of these schools and forms just aren't relevant to modern warfare/combat and haven't been updated in any meaningful way in order to become so.

I get that in the age of nuclear missiles, there's a perception of all hand-to-hand combat being obsolete. But still, these forms evolved from practical military scenarios. But they have not evolved in accordance with modern military scenarios. It's kind of weird, tbh.

I've always found the historical and geographical origins of martial arts fascinating. And I like to think the collection of armour in the 1989 Wayne Manor was an indicator that Bruce was also interested in the subject.

I have to agree. When I was a kid, I interpreted his armor collection as a rich man's indulgence. A kind of bourgy hobby.

As an adult, I think it's actually quite relevant to Bruce personally. First, his training would give him a natural connection for those cultures. The other thing is the concept of wearing heavy armor to go into battle is quite applicable to Bruce in any case. It works on a variety of levels, not least interpreting Burton's Batman as a sort of modern samurai.

Steven Seagal, for all the mockery his public persona attracts, is also a highly skilled practitioner of Aikido. He used to be notorious for putting people in wristlocks whenever he shook their hands. I guess it was his way of establishing his alpha male dominance, and he even did it to Chuck Norris on one occasion. Supposedly he also broke Sean Connery's wrist while training him for Never Say Never Again. I've heard far too many stories like this for me to ever dismiss Aikido as fake the way some people do.

My sense of Chuck Norris is that he's the real deal. And it's kind of a jerk thing to do to try one-upping him for no reason.

That said... yeah, Seagal is legit too. Aikido throws and locks can break bones so I'd be the last guy to suggest that he's some faker or whatever. The guy was an instructor in Japan, FFS. That's probably less impressive in today's world than it would've been a century ago but it's still a huge deal even now for reasons we'd do better to not talk about publicly.

I'd certainly never pick a fight with someone who'd mastered it.

That makes two of us.

I will give credit to the stunt team on Nolan's films that Bale's Batman actually displays a broader range of martial arts techniques than any other live action Batman. By my count, he's proficient in at least ten different styles. Which is slightly more than the Burton Batman. Unfortunately his skills are not portrayed consistently, which I suspect has something to do with Bale's ego making him insist on performing his own fight scenes instead of letting his stunt double (former heavyweight Ju-Jitsu champion Buster Reeves) do it for him. Stanislavski method, and all that. This is why sometimes Nolan's Batman is portrayed as a lightning fast martial arts master...

...while other times he just staggers around like a drunken brawler.

I guess I hadn't fully connected the dots on that stuff. But it is a good point. And for Batman of all characters, I kind of don't care what the actor's preferences might be. I wouldn't send a stuntman in there to give a dramatic performance. So why would I want to send a film actor to do fight sequences that Batman is uniquely tailored to allow a stuntman to perform? It's interesting how the slow, ponderous fighting I envision when I think of Nolan's Batman is probably all Bale.

As good an actor as Bale might be, he leaves much to be desired as a stunt performer. Good catch on your part.

You're right when you say he relies on the KFM too much. There's a limited move set he's particularly fond of using. But again, I think that's probably a consequence of Bale wanting to do the fights himself. His low-end combat feats are unimpressive, but his high-end performances are better than some fans give him credit for. Anyway, I'll save a more in-depth analysis of his fighting style for another thread.

Fair enough. Then for now, what I'll say is that while I kind of appreciate the philosophy of KFM, the form itself lacks... something. Idk. It seems to be a haphazard collection of ideas mixed with strikes. The practitioners I've seen in action look perpetually off-balance. Or something, it's hard to articulate.

I recognize that KFM doesn't aspire to be a "martial art" so much as kind of an idea or a philosophy. So maybe I'm being a bit harsh.

This is an important point. At around 5'9 and 160lbs, Bat-Keaton is by far the smallest live action incarnation of Batman. He's not small per se. He's just average sized. But compared to most of the other Batman actors, average size kind of is small. Some people deny that height and weight are a factor in combat. But while it's true a smaller fighter can knock out a larger opponent, size usually is a factor when it comes to grappling. Particularly if the disparity in weight is very large. So this is another potential area of weakness for Bat-Keaton.

I put things like that down to the fact that we're supposed to take Michael Keaton's physicality pretty much literally in the Burton films. As a comparison, Tom Welling's Clark on Smallville isn't meant to be taken completely literally. Tom Welling has sort of green eyes while Clark is always said to have baby blues. Clark has blue eyes while Welling has green eyes. That aspect of Tom Welling's features isn't meant to be taken literally, obviously.

But Burton wants us to believe someone matching Michael Keaton's exact specifications is Batman and that adds a level of grit and reality to the fight sequences where we see Batman use superior training and conditioning to overcome physically larger and stronger foes. It all works together to make the entire presentation more "credible" in a sense.

I think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject. And anyone who has trained has a more refined appreciation for the technical skill and hard work that goes into fight choreography. Hence this thread. Ideally I'd like to have similar threads for all the other live action Batmen.

I have to agree with this. When I was in junior high, I got into fist fights pretty often because I had very poor anger-management techniques at the time. So rather than ignore people, I was more likely to punch them in the head until they decide to find other targets. My Taekwondo history never really came up in any of those physical altercations.

But what I did notice was that I had fast reflexes. Very quick response time. I was fast enough to catch someone's hands when they attempted to shove me, throw them and send them flying. That seems sort of like a judo maneuver even though I know precisely squat about judo. It was simply instinct. The upside was very few people were fast enough to shove me.

The downside was that my throw wasn't as effective as an actual judo student would've been able to do. As you know, throws and submission holds aren't really an element of Taekwondo. And yet, I still credit Taekwondo with the training to watch for the right kinds of movements which indicate an attack is coming.

Knowing what I do now, I would've trained in judo back in junior high precisely to hone that skill. Then again, I haven't traded shots with anybody in nearly 25 years so what's it worth?

[Silver Nemesis]

As you have mentioned before breakfalls are the first thing you learn and the core of every class after that. A breakfall saved my life.

I'm very glad to hear that. You can learn how to respond to an attack on a cognitive level, but in order to implement that technique on the spur of the moment, when you mightn't have time to think about it, requires reflex action. This is why moves need to be practiced over and over, however tedious it might seem at the time. You're programming your muscles to respond intuitively. And once they've been programmed, I don't think those reflexes every fully go away. They might lessen over time if they aren't properly honed, but they're still hardwired into you.

I put things like that down to the fact that we're supposed to take Michael Keaton's physicality pretty much literally in the Burton films. As a comparison, Tom Welling's Clark on Smallville isn't meant to be taken completely literally. Tom Welling has sort of green eyes while Clark is always said to have baby blues. Clark has blue eyes while Welling has green eyes. That aspect of Tom Welling's features isn't meant to be taken literally, obviously.

But Burton wants us to believe someone matching Michael Keaton's exact specifications is Batman and that adds a level of grit and reality to the fight sequences where we see Batman use superior training and conditioning to overcome physically larger and stronger foes. It all works together to make the entire presentation more "credible" in a sense.

I've always thought this was a key factor in the enduring popularity of Keaton's Batman. It's much easier for the average viewer to identify with him than with someone like Kilmer or Bale. Burton took an average guy with a receding hairline and no martial arts experience and turned him into a cool, badass alpha male action hero who gets to date Kim Basinger and Michelle Pfeiffer. Every average guy who saw the Burton movies felt like that could be him. All Batman films have a power fantasy/wish fulfilment component, but that fantasy element feels somehow more obtainable in Burton's movies.

The casting of Keaton also placed a greater emphasis on the need for strategy in combat. Schumacher's Batman usually just drops into the middle of a fight and spins around like a Whirling Dervish, whereas Burton's is much slier. He uses the shadows to his advantage, plays dead and picks his enemies off one at a time. He's not above playing dirty when the odds are against him and only fights fair when he knows he has a shot at winning. Otherwise he uses weaponry, stealth and tricks to level the playing field.

I guess I hadn't fully connected the dots on that stuff. But it is a good point. And for Batman of all characters, I kind of don't care what the actor's preferences might be. I wouldn't send a stuntman in there to give a dramatic performance. So why would I want to send a film actor to do fight sequences that Batman is uniquely tailored to allow a stuntman to perform? It's interesting how the slow, ponderous fighting I envision when I think of Nolan's Batman is probably all Bale.

As good an actor as Bale might be, he leaves much to be desired as a stunt performer. Good catch on your part.

Bale's performed some decent fight scenes over the years, but he's never struck me as an extraordinarily impressive screen fighter. Obviously there's a difference between screen fighting and the mechanics of real combat. Someone might be amazing at exhibition fighting but lousy in a real brawl, or vice versa. Bale's had a lot more training than any of the other Batman actors, and I'm sure he can handle himself in real life. But on screen his move set is limited, he tends to telegraph his attacks far in advance of delivering them, and his striking speed isn't particularly fast.

That said, the only movie where I think his limitations were a problem was The Dark Knight. In Batman Begins Bale could move more freely during his out-of-costume fights, and for the costumed battles he had Buster Reeves to double for him. Reeves is faster than Bale and a lot more skilled. He was able to throw in some flashier moves to complement the more grounded KFM techniques...

...and the end result is a pleasant mixture of function and style. Overall, Batman Begins delivers a fairly consistent portrayal of Batman as an elite fighter. In The Dark Knight Rises Bruce is meant to be an older, broken-down wreck who's well past his prime, so it makes sense for him to be slower and off balance in that movie. But in The Dark Knight he's still meant to be in his prime, and yet his performance is inconsistent with what we saw in BB. Bale showcases some fast KFM combos during the garage fight.

I also like the nightclub fight scene. The choreography conveys how furious Batman is at this point in the story. He's less stealthy and doesn't bother to block many of the attacks. I particularly like this moment.

The bad guy smashes a bottle over Batman's head. Batman responds by intercepting his enemy's wrist, then uses his free hand to shatter the bottle before knocking his opponent out. He could have simply grabbed the guy's wrist and then knocked him out. But instead he takes a moment to destroy what's left of the bottle, thereby A) eliminating the weapon, and B) punishing his attacker by slicing up his hand and making sure he won't be able to use it for a while.

His fighting skills are less impressive during the fundraiser fight and his final showdown with the Joker. I can't really think of an in-universe reason to account for this, except perhaps that he was caught off guard by the Joker's sudden arrival in the former scene and just plain exhausted in the latter. But now I'm making excuses. The real life explanation is simply that Nolan's vision changed in between movies. BB is a much more comic bookish film than TDK or TDKR. Stylistically, I view it as the midway point between Batman 89 and The Dark Knight. And the fight choreography reflects this.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of Burton's Batman – how does everyone think the Burton Batman would have fared in combat against the villains from the later Batman films? Obviously we have to allow for differences in the way fights are staged, shot and edited from one production team to the next. But based on how he fought in Batman 89 and Batman Returns, and assuming he didn't learn any other martial arts after that, how would he have done against the later villains? How would the strengths and weaknesses of his fighting style have affected the outcome of those encounters? Would he have performed better than the other Batmen, or would he have struggled? Here's my take.

I think he would've breezed through all the villains in the Schumacher films without much difficulty, with the notable exception being Bane. Bane's size, strength and weight advantage, combined with his use of wrestling holds, would've posed a serious danger to the Burton Batman. He could have beaten Bane, but not in a direct fight. He would have had to use his intellect and weapons to level the playing field, much like Bat-Clooney did.

Mr. Freeze might also have been a challenge due to his size and strength. But at the end of the day, Freeze was too slow and unskilled to give the Burton Batman too much trouble. His vulnerability to heat also presented too obvious a weakness.

With Batman Begins I expect the four LOS ninjas and Ra's al Ghul would have been the toughest opponents. I think he could've beaten them, but not without difficulty. The four ninjas in particular would have posed a major threat and I think Bat-Keaton's lack of manoeuvrability would have proved a hindrance during that encounter.

With The Dark Knight I'd say the SWAT team would have been the toughest challenge, but as long as he had the right equipment he could've dealt with them. Besides having his batarang stolen by a poodle, we've never seen how the Burton Batman copes against animals. So it's hard to judge how he would've done against the Joker and his dogs during the final fight. That scenario might've caused him problems too.

The Dark Knight Rises is where the Burton Batman would really run into trouble. He could handle the basic henchmen, but Hardy's Bane would be a different story. Bane is probably the Nolanverse character that's closest to Bat-Keaton in terms of height, strength and skill. His pain threshold is insane, and his striking power devastating.

Obviously Bat-Keaton's moral code is different from Baleman's, and he might've simply ended the fight early on by hurling a napalm capsule in Bane's face. But in a fair fight, this one could go either way. Factor in the injuries Baleman was suffering from in TDKR and apply those to Bat-Keaton, and under those conditions there's a good chance Batman would lose.

Moving on to the DCEU, I'm going to skip the Superman battle because kryptonite renders skill irrelevant in that scenario. Regarding the warehouse fight, I don't think the Burton Batman could have taken down that many villains all at once the way Batfleck did, and certainly not in the time needed to save Martha Kent. I also don't think the Burton Batman would have survived going up against Doomsday. Batfleck only survived because he was fast and agile enough to dodge Doomsday's heat vision. But Bat-Keaton can't move like. He'd have been toast.

Similarly he wouldn't have lasted long against Steppenwolf and the Parademons. The Burton Batman could probably have defeated that first Parademon on the rooftops of Gotham. But once they started swarming him en masse their superior manoeuvrability and strength would overwhelm him. He might have survived going up against Steppenwolf, as the Burton Batman has metahuman levels of durability (see the Batwing crash for proof of this), but there's no way he'd defeat Steppenwolf.

What does everyone else think?