X-Men: Dark Phoenix (2019)

[BatmanFurst]

Rewatching this movie now.

In fact, I've been on an X-Men movie kick for a few days. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think history will look back very favorably at the Fox X-Men franchise from 2000-2019. Maybe not every single movie is an instant classic. But I predict that the franchise in general will age well.

(I'm not just saying all this because I expect for the MCU X-Men stuff to be a dumpster fire... but let's not ignore that possibility either)

I still maintain that Days of Future Past is the best comic book superhero film since The Dark Knight. I think it's a brilliant film and probably my third favorite comic book film overall.

MCU hasn't reached the lows of the X-Men franchise, but I don't think it has reached its highs either.

Also one more thing,  I think Apocalypse is very underrated. A step down from DOFP for sure but I really enjoy that movie. In a lot of ways I see that as the true ending to the Fox X-Men franchise rather than Dark Phoenix.

[thecolorsblend]

Rewatching this movie now.

In fact, I've been on an X-Men movie kick for a few days. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think history will look back very favorably at the Fox X-Men franchise from 2000-2019. Maybe not every single movie is an instant classic. But I predict that the franchise in general will age well.

(I'm not just saying all this because I expect for the MCU X-Men stuff to be a dumpster fire... but let's not ignore that possibility either)

I still maintain that Days of Future Past is the best comic book superhero film since The Dark Knight. I think it's a brilliant film and probably my third favorite comic book film overall.

MCU hasn't reached the lows of the X-Men franchise, but I don't think it has reached its highs either.

Also one more thing,  I think Apocalypse is very underrated. A step down from DOFP for sure but I really enjoy that movie. In a lot of ways I see that as the true ending to theFox X-Men franchise rather than Dark Phoenix.

There's some consensus on that. But First Class, DOFP and Apocalypse are their own trilogy. DP was meant to be the start of a new trilogy where the FC trio (except maybe Magneto) got phased out and the kids from Apocalypse took centerstage. If at least one more movie could've been made under the old regime, I think DP would come to hold a different position. As it stands now, DP is kind of an oddity that doesn't have very much context.

But yes, Apocalypse is underrated. I think it would get more love if DOFP wasn't as beloved as it was.

[BatmanFurst]

DP really got screwed by the Disney/Fox merger. From what I've seen in other forums it sounds like there's a better cut of DP out there, but idk that anybody outside of a minority (including myself) would care to see it.

[The Joker]

Out of all the X-Men films, post-X-Men: First Class, I feel as if Dark Phoenix is decidedly the lesser film in the series. Noticeably so from the heights of X-Men: Days of Future Past, and X-Men: Apocalypse to some extent.

One thing I wish would have been seen in Dark Phoenix, though it really wouldn't have made the film any better to be perfectly honest here, is having Magneto finally having a head of white/grey hair by this point. I remember Fassbender himself stating in a interview promoting Dark Phoenix that he actually brought this up prior to filming, but for whatever reason, the studio didn't want to pull the trigger on it. So, Magneto basically looks about the same as he did in the prior two films he appeared in, despite decades having past.

Oh well, Fox's X-Men timeline was never known for it's great attention to continuity/details anyways (the whole Magneto, Quicksilver father/son subplot never being fully resolved being another example). For better or worse.

As far as what's in store for us on the MCU front? Hoo boy! This should be fun. Especially so when you have someone like Victoria Alonso giving an interview in 2019, and coming across as actually triggered by the interviewer inquiring about the MCU X-Men plans, with her responding with something about the X-Men name being "outdated" in her estimation since there are so many women members.....

That's some, well, quirky thinking to say the least. I'll give her that.

[Gotham Knight]

I wanted to chime in because I'm a long-time fan of the X-Films and have a lot to say!

X-Men was a film that was received a bit lukewarmly at the time by die-hard comic book fans because it represented a bit of what we'll call the old ways of superhero genre filmmaking. It desired to translate the spirit of the work but was not interested in a literal translation, which still irks that sublet of fans to this day. Honestly, all of the Singer-directed films go for that and it is actually why his movies end up being the standouts if you ask me. Understanding the material goes further than someone making superficially perfect translations. It was also a big transition point, where the old ways met the new. Now, we have a more chapter-based continuing serial. X-Men is in many ways understated as  'blockbusters' go in that it refuses to show its full hand at the outset and chooses to keep you moving to the next stop while it allows the quality of the actors and the direction to get you back.

X2: X-Men United is why X-Men 1 is remembered so fondly, the first film becomes the first act, doing the heavy lifting so that the real meat of their story can pay off.  In hindsight, this is a difficult balancing act between two films, as it was being proven by other franchises that never were as they opted to put one too many eggs in the 'we'll do more in the sequel' basket. Smart, simple, and clever, this damn thing hits all the right notes and I can hardly sing its praises loudly enough.

X-Men The Last Stand is a cheap knockoff. This is painfully obvious from the word go. The style is amped up and the set pieces are impressive, but it's all anticlimatic in the face of a truncated and disingenuous story that is only trying to utilize it enough to milk it for the explosions. If this had been the first entry it might have worked as an acceptable studio-driven money machine, but the knowledge of its predecessors makes that impossible.

X-Men Origins Wolverine is the bottom of the barrel. It makes The Last Stand look like a gold nugget. A movie that was almost certainly made entirely by a studio checklist, this thing stumbles around and can't even manage to be the piece of spoiled candy that X3 was. It seeks to accomplish nothing and achieves the same. It's difficult for me to discern what they were thinking with this one. At least it provided a guidebook for the future.

X-Men: First Class is very much a 'we have to retain the rights' kind of movie, but it was a pretty gutsy movie bringing Singer back, which is ultimately why the movie is saved from being another dumpster fire. Mathew Vaughn directed this one, but it is still very much a Singer joint, something the film sells to you from the very first frame when we return to the origins of Magneto. Noticeable is the return to tight storytelling that relies on character and the quality, not quantity of the spectacle. Once again, the movie is presented as a first act, that seeks to pay off next time and boy howdy does it.

The Wolverine is a flawed movie, interestingly enough, because it ends up relying on cliche comic book tropes. After spending the better part of its time being a (very) thoughtful action thriller, it degenerates because it decides to backload the movie will all of the comic book gimmicks, and they no longer fit. The fanservice provided by Silver Samurai ends up being a tedious boss battle in a movie that probably would have been bettered served without that kind of confrontation.

X-Men: Days of Future Past is one hell of a beast. It's the delicious rarity of having one's cake and eating it too. You get a big fat blockbuster, the whole purpose of which is to generate more films and it accomplishes this feat by being a huge, emotionally driven critique of the peaks and valleys of the franchise itself! Extra bragging points get awarded because, in the midst of the time period where Marvel was ripping up the box office and everyone else was looking like pretenders, it is the X-Men, the reason for the boom period that the MCU enjoys, who return to remind who it was that made it possible. Oh! And it does it TWICE! The Rogue Cut ends up being even better! Holy crap! Avengers Endgame wishes it were a tenth of what DOFP is. A tenth! I can't say enough.

X-Men Apocalypse is underrated. It has the issue of being a movie trying to be bigger than DOFP. Full stop, that's what hurt it. This was a moment to get small again, but instead, the studio clearly wanted to get even bigger and finally start to replicate the success of Marvel by trying to do their schtick. In other words, I think it was the inclusion of Apocalypse himself that caused the issue. Too much, too soon. You just had the kitchen sink...

and yet Singer IMO makes it work. I think on paper it is kind of a so-so outing, but the high execution level is ridiculous. This one is the dark horse (no pun intended) of the franchise and will have its day sooner or later.

More soon....

[thecolorsblend]

X-Men was a film that was received a bit lukewarmly at the time by die-hard comic book fans because it represented a bit of what we'll call the old ways of superhero genre filmmaking.

Pretty much. The consensus at the time sounded a lot like "I like it... but..."

It was ambitious for its time. But as you say, comic movies were done a certain way back then. This first movie rly had to tone down some of the goofier stuff from the comics. It works in the aggregate. But my criticism was (and still is) that it looks like a rly ambitious TV show rather than a feature film. Plus, Magneto's Wicked Evil Super Sinister Plot is kind of incomprehensible. And lame.

I'm no fan of Raimi's first Spider-Man movie. But I do place Raimi's movie well ahead of Singer's first X-Men movie. But the first one isn't horrible, I'll say that.

X2: X-Men United is why X-Men 1 is remembered so fondly, the first film becomes the first act, doing the heavy lifting so that the real meat of their story can pay off.

People tend to forget that the first X-Men movie didn't set anybody's expectations ablaze. The summer of 2003 had several sequels.

It was considered a bizarre irony at the time that X2 was the only sequel from the summer of 2003 that didn't let everybody down. And I think that's a big reason why it's so fondly remembered today. Yes, it's a good movie. But fundamentally, nobody was expecting too much from it. They were essentially gearing up for more of the first movie. What they got, of course, was X freaking 2.

X-Men The Last Stand is a cheap knockoff. This is painfully obvious from the word go. The style is amped up and the set pieces are impressive, but it's all anticlimatic in the face of a truncated and disingenuous story that is only trying to utilize it enough to milk it for the explosions.

I'll cut this one some slack. No, it's not very good. But it went from, like, a six page outline to the big screen in twelve months. I'm not saying that to argue the film's merits. I'm saying that only to suggest that we got off relatively light.

As an attempt to do justice to the Phoenix storyline, X3 is a letdown. There's just no other way of looking at it. But considering the odds the movie was facing, again, could've been worse.

X-Men Origins Wolverine

Moving right along...

X-Men: First Class

I can't be sure if I love the fact that the movie is set in the Sixties or if I just have a lot of fond memories of the weekend it came out. Either way, this is an X-Men movie for which I have a lot of affection.

The Wolverine is a flawed movie

I see it as a lot of fun. Logan stealing a joke straight from James Bond was a bit distracting for me. But it's not like one stolen joke ruined it for me or anything.

X-Men: Days of Future Past is one hell of a beast. It's the delicious rarity of having one's cake and eating it too. You get a big fat blockbuster, the whole purpose of which is to generate more films and it accomplishes this feat by being a huge, emotionally driven critique of the peaks and valleys of the franchise itself! Extra bragging points get awarded because, in the midst of the time period where Marvel was ripping up the box office and everyone else was looking like pretenders, it is the X-Men, the reason for the boom period that the MCU enjoys, who return to remind who it was that made it possible. Oh! And it does it TWICE! The Rogue Cut ends up being even better! Holy crap! Avengers Endgame wishes it were a tenth of what DOFP is. A tenth! I can't say enough.

Weird that people don't talk up the Rogue Cut more. Originally, I held off buying it because everyone said it's almost the exact same movie, just with a bit more Rogue. That's not rly true. There's some additional drama and peril to it. I rather enjoy both versions.

X-Men Apocalypse is underrated. It has the issue of being a movie trying to be bigger than DOFP. Full stop, that's what hurt it. This was a moment to get small again, but instead, the studio clearly wanted to get even bigger and finally start to replicate the success of Marvel by trying to do their schtick. In other words, I think it was the inclusion of Apocalypse himself that caused the issue. Too much, too soon. You just had the kitchen sink...

This is the movie where the decade-by-decade thing starts working against the series. Peter decides to do something about this whole Magneto thing the very same day that Havok dies and everything starts going to hell? He couldn't have made his movie eleven years earlier? It's not a deal-breaker. But the timing just seems a little too convenient.

The movie's good. Definitely better than the first X-Men movie, X3 and Wolverine: Origins. It's just nowhere near X2 or DOFP levels.

More soon....

Can't wait.

[Gotham Knight]

X-Men: Days of Future Past is one hell of a beast. It's the delicious rarity of having one's cake and eating it too. You get a big fat blockbuster, the whole purpose of which is to generate more films and it accomplishes this feat by being a huge, emotionally driven critique of the peaks and valleys of the franchise itself! Extra bragging points get awarded because, in the midst of the time period where Marvel was ripping up the box office and everyone else was looking like pretenders, it is the X-Men, the reason for the boom period that the MCU enjoys, who return to remind who it was that made it possible. Oh! And it does it TWICE! The Rogue Cut ends up being even better! Holy crap! Avengers Endgame wishes it were a tenth of what DOFP is. A tenth! I can't say enough.

Weird that people don't talk up the Rogue Cut more. Originally, I held off buying it because everyone said it's almost the exact same movie, just with a bit more Rogue. That's not rly true. There's some additional drama and peril to it. I rather enjoy both versions.

Both are great, but I knew the Rogue Cut was going to be better less than ten minutes in. It is well known that the X-Men meet Bishop's team scene (exposition time travel intro) was something that went through a great deal of editing and reshuffling, owing to scripting flaws and the pressure to make this heavy exposition scene go faster. In both cuts, you still have an obviously constructed bit featuring Xavier's VO over a montage that is trying to streamline the hell out of everything.

In the end that's the only issue with the TC that I have. That bit all happens way too fast for my liking. The RC takes no more than a couple of minutes to fix it. The X-Men unveil the time travel plan and get instant blow-back. Then they have to make the case. It's just a tiny bit and yet they use it for everything that it is worth. Bishop and his guys aren't big characters in this, but instantly we care. We know WHO we're fighting for, not just what! And the X-Leaders are so in character.

"You're asking us to fight for a future we may not even be apart of!"

"Yes."-Magneto.

Chills every time.

I could go on all day about the RC. It's like the X-Men movies were the trendsetters all over again.

[BatmanFurst]

One area in the new films (First Class-Apocalypse) never got its due imo is the Jennifer Lawrence Mystique. That's a character that I've constantly heard people put down time and time again. Personally, I think this is a prime example of people letting their fixation with comic book accuracy get in the way of taking things into a new and interesting direction. From First Class-Apocalypse I think that version of Mystique is one of the best female characters that I've ever seen in a superhero comic book film. In each individual film her motivations are sound and she's given a compelling arc, then at the end of the trilogy you're given an arc that spans across all three films. Her starting out as a conflicted character torn between the ideologies of Xavier and Magneto but slowly inching back to Charles side eventually culminating in her coming back to the mansion to train the new class of X-Men is a great story for the version of the character.

I don't mean to bash the MCU too much, but comparatively speaking they have yet to come up with a female character that's on that level. A lot of comic book films think that a strong female character is simply a woman that can kick ass, but I appreciated that the Lawrence version of Mystique went well beyond that. It's a shame that the character development hasn't been given its due.

[thecolorsblend]

One area in the new films (First Class-Apocalypse) never got its due imo is the Jennifer Lawrence Mystique. That's a character that I've constantly heard people put down time and time again. Personally, I think this is a prime example of people letting their fixation with comic book accuracy get in the way of taking things into a new and interesting direction. From First Class-Apocalypse I think that version of Mystique is one of the best female characters that I've ever seen in a superhero comic book film. In each individual film her motivations are sound and she's given a compelling arc, then at the end of the trilogy you're given an arc that spans across all three films. Her starting out as a conflicted character torn between the ideologies of Xavier and Magneto but slowly inching back to Charles side eventually culminating in her coming back to the mansion to train the new class of X-Men is a great story for the version of the character.

I don't mean to bash the MCU too much, but comparatively speaking they have yet to come up with a female character that's on that level. A lot of comic book films think that a strong female character is simply a woman that can kick ass, but I appreciated that the Lawrence version of Mystique went well beyond that. It's a shame that the character development hasn't been given its due.

I agree with you. But sometimes I wonder if that was the original plan. Canonically, Mystique is supposed to be broadly aligned with Magneto. (Nb4 switching loyalties, yes, that happened; I'm talking about canon rather than individual storylines)

So, I think FC was meant to wrap with Mystique being a sympathetic antagonist in future films. DOFP certainly hints that near the end. But, unexpected by all parties involved, Jennifer Lawrence became a star and I wouldn't be surprised if Lawrence's stardom didn't change the plan for Mystique. She might've insisted her character find some kind of redemption.

So, she goes from turning her back on the X-Men in FC to leading them in DP. And it feels like a natural arc for her character. Mixed up young girl, villain, rebel and, ultimately, leader.

These days, the MCU seems deeply reluctant to show a woman being wrong, admitting to her error, learning and then growing. With some exceptions, their female characters seem basically fully formed from the jump these days. There's nowhere for them to rly go.

But Raven is a pretty interesting character because she screws up and then she fixes things.

[BatmanFurst]

I agree with you. But sometimes I wonder if that was the original plan. Canonically, Mystique is supposed to be broadly aligned with Magneto. (Nb4 switching loyalties, yes, that happened; I'm talking about canon rather than individual storylines)

So, I think FC was meant to wrap with Mystique being a sympathetic antagonist in future films. DOFP certainly hints that near the end. But, unexpected by all parties involved, Jennifer Lawrence became a star and I wouldn't be surprised if Lawrence's stardom didn't change the plan for Mystique. She might've insisted her character find some kind of redemption.

So, she goes from turning her back on the X-Men in FC to leading them in DP. And it feels like a natural arc for her character. Mixed up young girl, villain, rebel and, ultimately, leader.

These days, the MCU seems deeply reluctant to show a woman being wrong, admitting to her error, learning and then growing. With some exceptions, their female characters seem basically fully formed from the jump these days. There's nowhere for them to rly go.

But Raven is a pretty interesting character because she screws up and then she fixes things.

It wasn't the original plan. I saw an interview with Matthew Vaughn talking about where he wanted his trilogy to go. The last film in that trilogy would've been Days of Future Past. When the studio heard his pitch for what Days of Future Past could be they hurried to make that the next film rather than wait for a film in between which ultimately led to Vaughn's departure from what I understand.

So the trajectory of Mystique's character is most likely influenced by Lawrence's rise to fame from 2011 onwards. I think First Class was able to sign her on before she became an Academy award nominated actress.