BvS stunt coordinator discusses the Martha moment

[The Laughing Fish]

I caught this Screen Rant interview with stunt coordinator Damon Caro, who not only oversaw the warehouse fight scene but also played the Waynes' killer in the opening scene of the movie. He claims he played Joe Chill, but for some reason, WB wouldn't give him the credit for the role.

When asked about the Martha scene, Caro said he was baffled by the criticism over it.

SR: [The opening scene] is kind of important to set up the whole Martha moment later on, which ended up being one of the more hotly debated moments of the film. Did you expect that to have a divisive response on set, or was that something that you figured would be more apparent to most audiences?

DC: You mean sort of the some people that don't understand the concept or think it's silly?

SR: Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that, it didn't - I liked it, so I might not be the person to explain why people have issue with it, but-

DC: It didn't resonate with them. Yeah, I get it. I'm one of those people, too, like you. No, there was zero, zero conversation about "oh, people are going to have an issue with this or not understand it or think it's silly." It was - and it's so funny, Zack and I had a conversation about that, I don't know, a month ago, probably. That came up and I just said "I have never understood-" and I don't listen to a lot of the haters, but I've heard the chatter of it a little bit, but I don't understand what the disconnect was. What the problem is with how salient that line is and the connection between having the same mother's name allows you to connect with someone you wanted to obliterate from the planet because you saw him as a threat to the human race. You saw him as a threat to humanity, then in that one moment, you realized he was an orphan and his mother's... you saw him as you as you as a kid and you saw him in that light, so that enlightened you, that made you drop and see him now, not as the enemy, but as an ally. A fellow being who is trying to do the right thing, to reach justice. So no, crystal clear and very, like I said, it always made sense to me, so I'm perplexed by that one and I don't know that I... I don't have the answer to that one.

SR: I don't either, so that's why I asked.

DC: [laughs], I wish I could enlighten that to you, but you're asking the wrong guy on that one.

Source: https://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-damon-caro-interview-warehouse-scene/

If I were Caro, I would've also emphasised how the scene made Batman realise that he was becoming a killer no different than Joe Chill, instead of the hunter who vanquished a threat to humanity like he had stubbornly believed.

As I said before, I don't think that scene is perfect, but the level of criticism over it is overblown. I've seen much worse in certain other Batman movies, but conveniently, people don't seem to mind them. Actually, I think the real criticism should be over Superman not trying hard enough to tell Batman about Lex's goals. Yes, he did try the first time but got interrupted by Batman's machine guns. It should be mentioned the Ultimate Edition does a better job at foreshadowing Batman's state of mind in an earlier scene where Santos's girlfriend tells Clark that only violence can stop Batman. But still, the fight had a lot of long pauses where Superman could've said what was going on, instead of leaving it right at the last second before Batman nearly killed him. When I watched the film for the first time, I couldn't help but feel the moment was an excuse so we could see the two engaged in a drawn out fight sequence. Regardless, my first impressions were more critical of Superman, rather than Batman. At some point, Batman was always going to come to terms with learning what Lex was doing, and see a wake-up call within himself to snap out of his blind hatred and paranoia.

Maybe if Superman tried for a second time, and Batman still refused to listen, I think it would've clearly demonstrated to the audience how unreasonable Batman had become at that point and accepted the Martha moment more. But then again, maybe not. After all, the interviewer, who is an unashamed fan of the film, made this observation that captures the mood of the general audience in another article:

Some people will doubtless see these comments as supporting a narrative of incompetence behind the movie's script, but it's important to distinguish that the translates well conceptually and on paper. Besides, while Snyder helped craft the story, the screenplay was written by Oscar winner Chris Terrio. As Caro says, the idea of Batman who's lost his way identifying with Superman's humanity and that moment cutting through his rage is a powerful concept. Maybe it's the fact that audiences rejected Batman's more violent arc from the start, undercutting the emotional payoff that comes from his redemption, or maybe it comes down to execution in the moment. It's hard to discount the many audience members who saw no issue with it, but at the same time, there's plenty of people it didn't resonate with.

Source: https://screenrant.com/batman-v-supermans-martha-moment-blowback-crew-reaction/

What one thinks of the execution of the scene is subjective, I suppose. What I can say is the criticism over Batman's brutality doesn't hold any water given many of the previous incarnations of the character are just as guilty of, especially Wonder Woman's methods in her own movie. But I guess when it comes to Batman, as long as you pay lip service to certain ideas, you can get away with anything even if you fail to live up to them.

[The Laughing Fish]

I thought I'd put this here because I don't think it's worthy of its own thread. Two years ago, some YouTube "critic" called Chris Stuckmann did a complete rewrite of the entire Batman Superman fight and how he thought it should've ended. These are the transcripts below.









This is not a very good rewrite. That exchange he wrote between Batman and Superman is a lot more childish and clumsy than anything we got in the film. Tell that to Zod's snapped neck? Knowing his dislike for MOS, that line is just a moronic, disingenuous dig. Plus, I don't see the need for Batman to hallucinate his mother cradling around Superman to snap out of his rage. You've already got Lois begging Batman to stop ala Dyson's son begging Sarah Connor not to kill his father in Terminator 2, that's good enough for an alternate ending to the scene.

Stuckmann apparently got a massive backlash over his own rewrite by the way. He did a video talking about the reaction, but I never bothered watching it. All I know is he was pretty upset about it.

[thecolorsblend]

That's the lamest rewrite I've ever seen. It achieves exactly the same thing as Terrio's script... but with tons more fan-wankery, Whedonisms and unnecessary extra dialogue.

The one decent idea is the visual recall of the Wayne murders. But that dream or vision or whatever that is of Martha Wayne cradling Superman and begging Batman to not do something or other is melodramatic.

Disclaimer: I've got a ridiculously low threshold for melodrama.

In general, it's hard to see this hackjob rewrite as much of an improvement over what we got. I'd even say it misses the point Terrio and Snyder were going for. Batman couldn't be reasoned with and Superman's willingness to try only went so far. All that dialogue at the beginning contradicts the exact point of the scene; neither character was willing to waste that much time with talk.

That hack deserves every bit of backlash he got.

[The Laughing Fish]

I found this great video by a fan who addresses the argument of Batman should never suffer from PTSD, which was an important factor the Martha moment had indicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZd3Z7c_DuY&ab_channel=NerdyInManyWays

I'm quite surprised that people would be against the idea of Batman suffering from any sort of psychological distress. What doesn't make sense to me is Batman is hailed as the most "human" and "relatable" character in comics by so many people, and yet, these very same people don't want to see him as anything less than a power fantasy. Yes, Batman might have the near superhuman ability and willpower to overcome horrific experiences such as the maze ordeal in The Court of Owls, but that doesn't necessarily make him immune from trauma. As the video says, trauma drives the character to become who he is, it doesn't make him perfect however. No way could Batman ever suffer from his own failures and witness his enemies' worst crimes, and not ever be somewhat haunted about them.

What's even more annoying is people praise past films for supposedly being "grounded in realism", but when a film tackles the psychological complexities of a character stuck in an existential crisis and fearing the unknown, they can't handle it and say "BatMaN iSn'T rEaLiStIc". Again, I get the feeling most people confuse calling their appreciation of Batman as "human" and "relatable" as the power fantasy.

If people are going to doubt how non-superpowered heroes like Batman could ever suffer from PTSD because he fights the Joker, they might as well ask the same for his Marvel counterpart, Iron Man. Has everybody else forgotten his PTSD episodes in Iron Man 3?

[thecolorsblend]

I have to agree, actually. Batman shouldn't suffer from PTSD. That specific mental trauma renders the patient incapable of dealing with certain triggers. In most cases, they literally can't handle those stressors. They can't even be near those things. There's really nothing cool or theatrical about PTSD. Mostly it just sucks.

One of my favorite shows is Dexter. Without giving too much away, the title character had a pretty traumatic experience as a young boy and that event basically transformed him into a psychopath. His destiny might've originally taken him in a completely different direction. But that event from his childhood made him a monster. I prefer thinking of Batman in similar terms. Maybe "psychopath" isn't the best way to put it. But witnessing his parents murder destroyed something inside him and from that point on, his world is darkness.

Psychopathy has a certain array of associated behaviors and Bruce doesn't fit every single one of them. At least not perfectly. But I do find that much closer to his behaviors and symptoms than PTSD.

[The Laughing Fish]

I have to agree, actually. Batman shouldn't suffer from PTSD. That specific mental trauma renders the patient incapable of dealing with certain triggers. In most cases, they literally can't handle those stressors. They can't even be near those things. There's really nothing cool or theatrical about PTSD. Mostly it just sucks.

One of my favorite shows is Dexter. Without giving too much away, the title character had a pretty traumatic experience as a young boy and that event basically transformed him into a psychopath. His destiny might've originally taken him in a completely different direction. But that event from his childhood made him a monster. I prefer thinking of Batman in similar terms. Maybe "psychopath" isn't the best way to put it. But witnessing his parents murder destroyed something inside him and from that point on, his world is darkness.

Psychopathy has a certain array of associated behaviors and Bruce doesn't fit every single one of them. At least not perfectly. But I do find that much closer to his behaviors and symptoms than PTSD.

I'm not so sure about that. I found this academic essay analysing Batman's mental health, and it used examples from various films and other media to argue he possibly shows psychiatric signs of PTSD.

https://pdfslide.net/documents/holy-ptsd-batman-an-analysis-of-the-psychiatric-symptoms-of-bruce.html

Aside from the obvious fact that Batman had to have witnessed a traumatic experience such as the murder of his parents, the two other possible symptoms he may suffer from include:

"Recurrent distressing dreams of the event" - Bruce's nightmare of visiting his parents' graves at the mausoleum appears to be a perfect example of this.

"Intense psychological distress at exposure to cues that symbolise or resemble an aspect of a traumatic event" - the Martha moment would have to be the only example here. Remember, "Martha" was the last word that Thomas Wayne uttered under his dying breath, which is repeated in that little montage sequence right after Superman pleaded Batman to save Martha Kent.

I suppose these examples fall under that essay's criteria of PTSD: "the traumatic event is persistently re-experienced in one or more ways".

Whether or not this analysis and these comparisons are valid, or superficial, depends on one's point of view.

[thecolorsblend]

Mrs. Santos: "A man like that, words don't stop him."
*fast forward*
Superman: "Martha!"
*Batman stops*