Joker (2019)

[thecolorsblend]

So I just watched this the other day for the first time in awhile, and I gotta say, I think this may be my favorite DC movie ever made....and I like a LOT of DC movies.

There's just so many things going on with this movie that I love. On paper, I shouldn't like this movie. It goes against some of the things I rail against, but for some reason, this movie works for me. It's just so goddamn good.

Very well said. And, if I may, JOKER is already a well-liked movie. But I think history will look back very kindly on it. When the movie's tenth anniversary rolls around, I'd be amazed if there aren't quite a few retrospective think-pieces which reevaluate the movie on its merits and apart from the controversy that greeted its release.

[The Dark Knight]

So I just watched this the other day for the first time in awhile, and I gotta say, I think this may be my favorite DC movie ever made....and I like a LOT of DC movies.

There's just so many things going on with this movie that I love. On paper, I shouldn't like this movie. It goes against some of the things I rail against, but for some reason, this movie works for me. It's just so goddamn good.

It's a masterpiece and every single scene has something going for it.

I think the movie works so well because it captures the time in which it was made, with the translation done in a universal way that doesn't appeal to just one side.

One of the few ways I think another Joker could begin to match the intensity of Phoenix would be casting someone established like Willem Dafoe. Him against Pattinson would be a sight to behold, and they have shared the screen together before.

[thecolorsblend]

Found a sort of interesting thing over on r/FanTheories (https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/lxpmmm/joker2019_movie_and_messiah_complex_theory). Since posts have a way of vanishing into the ether on reddit, I figured I'd archive it here.

•Posted byu/More_than_Salvation
1 day ago
Joker(2019) movie and messiah complex theory.
FanTheoryspoiler
There will be spoilers. #SPOILER
The movie is not only about the descent into insanity and nihilism or the origin of the character Joker, but also the unconscious development of psychological messiah complex of Arthur.

So the movie subtly presented him as a messiah-like figure in the story with Jesus imageries. The plot subtly revolves around the messianic complex psychology of Arthur that drove him to become Joker.

The story of Arthur Fleck oddly resembles the story of Jesus in the gospels or makes references to the gospels:

It is estimated that Jesus was around in his early 30s when he was preaching./ Arthur's birth year in 1948 or 1949, meaning that he was 32-33 years old during the events of Joker.

Joseph(Jesus's human father) is no longer mentioned as being present during Jesus's adult age./ Arthur lived with his mother Penny and there was no father present with them.

The gospels make claim that Jesus's spiritual father is God, a high figure/ Penny claimed that Arthur's biological father is Thomas Wayne, a high figure.

Jesus caused a rebellious movement and presented himself as the central figure / Arthur also caused a rebellious movement and presented himself as the central figure.

After Jesus's death on the cross, his followers took the body and laid it in the tomb./After just the car crash, the protestors took Arthur's body and laid on a car.

After waking-up from the car crash, surrounded by protestors, Arthur stretched his arms out like Jesus did on the cross.

There was a scene, above Penny's bed, and Arthur got beside her to watch the TV, you can see a picture of Virgin Mary and Jesus. There was also a religious candle with a printed image of Mary and Jesus, in the living-room of their apartment.

All the subtle Jesus references or imagery stress the point of Arthur in the psychological process of becoming Joker and presented him as messiah-like.

Everytime Arthur was dreaming or hallucinating, his dreams subtly evoke his personal or societal issues:

In the scene when Arthur imagining himself in Murray show, Murray talked about the problem of piling trashes outside and rats roaming in the city. Arthur laughed at his joke, then Arthur shared the fact to the public that he lived with his mom and took care of her for long time. His dream occurred just after he started actually watching the Murray show on live.

Joker's first time on stage as comedian scene, he awkwardly stated that he hated school because of kids(probably due to bullying) and then he was making a joke about rich people which the movie is fading the audio to the "smile" song and we hear public laughing.

When Arthur hanging out with Sophie, as Arthur and Sophie observed newspapers with these headlines displayed on the street, Sophie, not knowing that Arthur was the one responsible for it, commented that she believed the murderer clown was "a hero" and that the city's self-conceited elite deserved it.

When Arthur actually appeared as Joker in the Murray show, he affirmed that his joker look in the show was not political. I think that's not entirely true. Arthur might honestly tell himself or to others that he was not being political. However his unconscious aspect of his psychology did care about politics. His unconsciousness was fed up about Arthur's miserable life and the bleak societal reality. So his unconsciousness developed a messiah complex that drove Arthur in the process of becoming Joker. His psychological shadow, the unconscious aspect of Arthur's "dark" personality(the joker) , progressive merged with his consciousness as the product of individuation according to Jung.

[The Dark Knight]

I like the similarities. A modern Jesus who chose a different path.

At the core I think Arthur is a good man. But he was abandoned by everyone, and thus his faith was broken. He knew he had to either fight back or blow his brains out. He chose the fight back option.

"When you feel the last bit of breath leaving their body, you're looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God."

At a base level of personal satisfaction, that's the messiah complex Arthur was after.

When Arthur kills his bullies, he not just becomes the master of his own universe, but the centre of the universe for many others who share similar frustrations. What started out an individual expression of resistance evolves into something else. Many creations have come into existence without people intending them to, and historical figures don't see themselves as such.

[Andrew]

I didn't like the movie, it mostly felt like just watching The King of Comedy, also with some Taxi Driver, again and also too much was random.

[Slash Man]

While I disagree with the less traditional backstory to the Joker, the fact that the story was self-contained and clearly out of universe gave it a good setting to exist in. I won't go on a full review, but I do want to state some of my nitpicks. Namely, they went so far to make it a self-contained story, but just couldn't resist a backdoor Batman pilot. Completely unnecessary to include the Waynes, they could have replaced Thomas Wayne with any wealthy socialite from Batman lore. A side effect of that is the extreme age difference between Batman and Joker; at best a new Batman in his 20s will be facing off against a Joker in his 60s. Probably the most egregious part was retelling the Wayne murders again. People were tired of this part of Batman's story being retold with each reboot. BvS wasn't particularly bad, but everyone hated that we had to see the sequence yet again. Joker might just be the worst instance in that respect.

[thecolorsblend]

While I disagree with the less traditional backstory to the Joker, the fact that the story was self-contained and clearly out of universe gave it a good setting to exist in. I won't go on a full review, but I do want to state some of my nitpicks. Namely, they went so far to make it a self-contained story, but just couldn't resist a backdoor Batman pilot. Completely unnecessary to include the Waynes, they could have replaced Thomas Wayne with any wealthy socialite from Batman lore. A side effect of that is the extreme age difference between Batman and Joker; at best a new Batman in his 20s will be facing off against a Joker in his 60s. Probably the most egregious part was retelling the Wayne murders again. People were tired of this part of Batman's story being retold with each reboot. BvS wasn't particularly bad, but everyone hated that we had to see the sequence yet again. Joker might just be the worst instance in that respect.

In both movies, the Wayne shootings probably occupy less than five minutes combined. In JOKER, the murders are the culmination of Fleck's story. In BVS, the murders propel Batman's eventual "redemption".

Bottom line, they contribute greatly to both stories. I do not understand the opposition some people have toward those scenes.

[The Dark Knight]

Not using the Wayne family would've been the elephant in the room. JOKER does take place in Gotham City, so I want to know their place in it. Substituting them with other characters wouldn't have had the same resonance. The murder of Thomas and Martha cements Arthur's status as a street level influencer given his final words to Murray are repeated before the trigger gets pulled. Arthur is much older than Bruce, but I don't think that matters much in a sea of various different incarnations. This Joker could remain jail bound and simply be a martyr for clown gangs, as the deceased Nicholson seems to be in the B89 comic series.

[Slash Man]

Not using the Wayne family would've been the elephant in the room. JOKER does take place in Gotham City, so I want to know their place in it.

Some early criticism was that a Joker movie without Batman would feel incomplete. On that matter they proved the film could stand on its own, and it was even better for it. My only gripe was that they could have taken that even further to develop this already unique identity that the film laid out for itself. Part of my perspective just comes from the fact that I like it as a film in general, but not as a comic book movie.

[The Joker]

This guy's specific story ideas, I can kinda take or leave, but I think the notion of the sequel taking it's inspiration from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", much like how "Joker" was influenced by "Taxi Driver", and "King of Comedy", is a really good place to start. Especially in where we left off in the story with Arthur.

Plus, it's a nice nod to Jack. To me, that's always a positive.