Joker (2019)

[The Dark Knight]

I have underlying issues which I have expressed previously, and I'll wait to see how those develop (mainly how overt their messaging is, what side they take, and the conclusions they make).

But I did like that trailer. If I ever wrote a script it would involve a regular human who is thrust into an extraordinary situation, such as Neo from the Matrix or Billy in Shazam. The hero's journey is rewarding to witness, and most of the time I want their final form to be delayed. The entertainment is in their trials and tribulations. That is the same thing that Joker is seeking to accomplish.

Instead of the hero's journey it's the wounded man's journey. Someone who over the course of the film becomes increasingly damaged before morphing into his final form. The power of cinema should be in the performances and the storytelling.

In recent times that has been lost amongst the tide of computer imagery.

Underlying issues I may have could be tolerated when I consider the wealth of what is on offer here. Leto was watered down to the point of being a forgettable footnote. Phoenix may be a one and done deal, but he already grabs my attention a lot more. The Joker as a character should be emotionally powerful and attention grabbing. And I add 'a reflection of the times', which is interesting considering this film is set in the 80s. This trailer has made the required impact with the public, based on what I've seen in the trailer's aftermath.

Leto's issue was that he wasn't given the floor to shine on his own two feet. He was depicted as the supporting act for Harley. Phoenix will not have that problem given he has a solo film all to himself. There's no reason why he can't put a stamp on this role in the same way Nicholson or Ledger did.

Back to my 'underlying issues': if this film takes the view that it's not necessarily that capitalism is bad, but it CAN be viewed that way, (it IS viewed by that way by some) the film could be palatable for me. Maybe it's not a love letter to Antifa, but rather showing how people find power and relevance in shared suffering and shared beliefs, which is still a true statement and relevant for today. This is being sold as a cautionary tale after all. But then again, maybe the tale is to treat others with care, because you don't know who you are really dealing with, or what they'll become. 

In any case, the performance and descent into madness is the main attraction here. I'm interested.

And finally, I have to say the trailer depicts Gotham in a solid way, with trash on the street and such.

[Silver Nemesis]

This could be the first time we really see Alan Moore's Joker in live action. Batman '89 and The Dark Knight were both influenced by The Killing Joke, but Nicholson and Ledger's Jokers had very different personalities from Moore's interpretation. Batman '89 borrowed a couple of scenes and a lot of imagery from TKJ, but personality-wise Nicholson's character was closer to the Silver Age or Steve Englehart versions. TKJ heavily influenced the central themes of The Dark Knight and even the Joker's motivation and psychological profile to an extent, but ultimately the personality of Ledger's interpretation was much closer to that of the Grant Morrison or original 1940 versions. 

Moore wanted his readers to pity the Joker, so he presented him as a sad, pathetic loser whose deranged cruelty was a reflection of the misery that others had inflicted on him and his loved ones. The new movie looks like it's angling for a similar degree of pathos. Personally, I was never a fan of Moore's take on the character and I've never felt sorry for the Joker. I prefer Miller's idea that he's a demonic, almost supernatural force of evil, similar to Bullseye. But considering Nicholson and Ledger's Jokers were already pretty close to Miller's take, I'm open to seeing a new version that leans towards Moore's characterisation.

At any rate, this was a good trailer. The cinematography's impressive and Phoenix's performance looks creepy and compelling. The film might still be a disaster, and I share other people's reservations about the underlying idea behind the project. But right now, it looks promising. I'm on board.

Just one thing – the IMDb lists De Niro's talk show host character as 'Murray Franklin'. They missed a trick by not calling him David Endocrine.

[The Dark Knight]

Agree. They're definitely going for the beaten down man route, who is feeling down on himself while also being neglected by society. It also looks like we're going to get some stand up comedy from Fleck as well, which will probably include him being booed and laughed off the stage.

We've had the mobster (Nicholson) and the mysterious terrorist (Ledger). Taking a Killing Joke approach seems logical - there's lots of material to work with there, and a lot of it is unused. It's pretty much perfect for a character study, because the actor can tap into the depths of depression and desperation.

Notice we see Fleck walking up the stairs, and later walking down the stairs as the Joker? Symbolic of a descent into madness.

"I used to think that my life was a tragedy, but now I realize...it's a comedy."

The Joker as a character usually has snappy, memorable dialogue and this also fits the bill. Really does neatly capture what he's all about. I liked that line as soon as I heard it.

[thecolorsblend]

Just rewatched the trailer to savor the mood and atmosphere of it. When news of this movie broke, I didn't see much of a point in a Joker movie without Batman. But the trailer puts it all in better focus. This is the story of a man who's abused by people, by society, by his peers, by everything and everyone. I gather that his micro-story of descending into madness plays into the macro-story of attracting followers to protest The System. Introducing Batman into that equation would detract from Fleck's story, I think. It creates too much of a Good Guy vs. Bad Guy paradigm. It simplifies the equation in ways which I don't think would necessarily be appropriate for this material. The Joker is the motif being used here but it could just as easily be anything else. The issue isn't the Joker so much as it's Fleck.

Mind you,you could say those exact same words using them as a criticism if you wanted. And I can't rationally argue against you.

Between this and movies like split, the trend for cinema these days seems to be heading in the direction of developing origin stories even for supervillains. Since comic book movies are now becoming a completely inescapable reality, this approach works for me. It gives us a new and fresh angle rather than yet another Batman vs. Joker movie. I love those kinds of movies but we've seen them. This Phillips/Phoenix movie is something new and original. Maybe it'll work and maybe it'll be awful. But it's different and that automatically makes it worth investigating.

I'd rather Joker be what it is and fail than fit in with the conveyor belt of pap and succeed, tbh.

Plus, come on, how many times have I ever seen a movie with Joaquin Phoenix in it and came out thinking "Man, that was a real piece of garbage"? Never. So the odds are already in this movie's favor.

I get the idea of calling DeNiro's character David Endocrine but I think Phillips is shooting for more of a "world outside your window" approach rather than the parody that Endocrine was intended to be. It would've been good fan service but I think (or at least I want to believe) that Phillips has his eye on a very different prize here.

In the end, the movie's budget is a relatively paltry $55 million. On that basis, there's virtually no way it can fail. It'll be marketed as a $55 million picture, to be sure, but the amount of interest this movie is attracting tells me its box office will be a lot higher than the $140'ish million it needs to turn a profit. In today's market, I don't see very many ways for Joker to flop.

[thecolorsblend]

I'm a little late to the party on this. But...

https://screenrant.com/dc-dceu-joker-movie-dark-black

DC's non-DCEU movie label will kick off with the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie and could end up being called DC Dark or DC Black, according to a new report. The idea behind starting up a DC film sub-franchise is that it will allow room for directors to come in and make one-off DC movies that aren't beholden to the continuity of the larger DC cinematic universe. Much like DC's Elseworlds imprint does for the company's comic book division, DC Dark/Black would (in theory) open the door to more experimenting with the DC movie brand and its characters.

DC technically has six Joker movies in some stage of development right now, but the Phoenix-led film about the Clown Prince of Crime is the only one that falls under the non-DCEU banner. The Hangover trilogy and War Dogs director Todd Phillips is calling the shots on the film, which is also being produced by none other than Martin Scorsese and cowritten by Oscar-nominee Scott Silver of 8 Mile and The Fighter fame. In addition to prestigious creatives, Phillips' Joker solo film will have a much lower budget than most comic book adaptations nowadays, according to the latest report on the project and other going-ons at DC.

RELATED: THE BATMAN SCRIPT FOCUSES ON YOUNGER BATMAN
In a sweeping update on what's happening at DC Films right now, THR reports that Phoenix and Phillips' Joker movie will launch a new label that could be branded "DC Dark", "DC Black", or something else along those lines. The "Dark" or "Black" aspect of the label could be a reference to how the Joker film is expected to be a gritty crime drama/thriller in the vein of Scorsese's own 1970s classics like Taxi Driver. Separate reports support the idea, claiming the Joker movie takes place in the '80s and draws inspiration from The Killing Joke - Alan Moore's infamously macabre comic book story about the villain's humble beginnings as a failed comedian.

"DC Dark/Black" could further indicate that the plan is for this label to cover some of the developing movies that focus on DC villains - those that didn't make their screen debut in Suicide Squad, anyway. In addition to the Joker origin movie, that could include the Lobo solo film that is currently in the works. Lobo writer Jason Fuchs has expressed a desire to capture the spirit of the intergalactic bounty hunter in comic book form, suggesting his movie will be an anarchic and possibly R-rated romp that's closer in tone to Deadpool than the rest of the DCEU. Michael Bay was reported to be circling a $200 million take on Lobo earlier this year, so it's possible the film is now being rewritten and scaled down to fit the leaner budget template that "DC Dark/Black" is going for.

Interestingly enough, DC appears to be responding to the complaints about the DCEU being "too dark" by splitting its films up into two sub-franchises. The DCEU is already on its way to a brighter and more colorful tomorrow, thanks to upcoming films like Aquaman and especially Shazam!. Meanwhile, "DC Dark/Black" can embrace a darker and more adult tone than DCEU films like Man of Steel, Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, and Suicide Squad were able to, since its movies won't be beholden to a PG-13 rating, by the sound of it. If that's the case, then it sounds like a smart way for Warner Bros. and DC to move forward from here.

We will bring you more details on The Joker and DC's new movie label as they become available.

This looks like a variation on the recommendation I made of creating movies which are intended to stay separate from each other. The article itself notes the kinder, gentler direction the DCEU is taking these days so this anthology sub-franchise is a good way of keeping things fresh and interesting.

[The Joker]

My thoughts, based on the trailer, is that the movie is very conscious of what it's doing.

The primary theme of the trailer is "put on a happy face", which leads me to believe that this is going to be a movie about depression and the damage that comes from trying to cover it up rather than truthfully addressing it. We get scenes of a painfully thin Arthur, dancing and bathing his mother, cut to another scene of Arthur forcing himself to smile (when it's evident he's anything but happy) as he talks to the therapist, another scene of Arthur in Arkham, but he's just riding in an elevator where someone else is tied down to a stretcher and convulsing/thrashing. We get a voiceover about how his mother told him it was his purpose to make other people happy which seems to be why he became a clown, we see him forcing himself to smile in the mirror, pushing that little boy's face into a smile, his notepad has a joke about mental illness while the song playing over it all ("smile, though your heart is aching..), etc.

My takeaway from all this is that this Joker's problem isn't that he's mentally ill, it's that his method of dealing with it--laughing at it, forcing a smile, and focusing on making other people happy even if he's absolutely miserable. Resulting in both outcomes being severely ineffective and profoundly destructive to himself and others. The Taxi Driver comparisons and motifs are pretty obvious here, but while Taxi Driver was focused upon an angry alienated young man spiraling into delusion, JOKER seems to be setting up a more specific point about the choice to ignore personal issues/difficulties in favor of keeping up a positive exterior image.

Which I honestly think is a pretty interesting angle to take here, if that does prove to be the case. A Batman-less Joker movie certainly lends itself to be much more of a character study that goes beyond a lazy enigma backstory.

I'm interested. Just the mere fact that this looks like a worthwhile attempt to make a movie rather than yet another MCU Saturday morning CGI comedy serial is enough to get my attention these days.

[The Dark Knight]

The primary theme of the trailer is "put on a happy face", which leads me to believe that this is going to be a movie about depression and the damage that comes from trying to cover it up rather than truthfully addressing it.

Good point. It's clear he changes his mindset completely given he starts to view his life as a comedy and not a tragedy. Case in point being assaulted on the train, and continuing to laugh while on the ground. My prediction is that his mother (not a wife) dies near the third act and he is sent over the edge, with the film ending with the Wayne murder sequence. His decision to smile NO MATTER WHAT comes from his mother, after all.

[Silver Nemesis]

I get the idea of calling DeNiro's character David Endocrine but I think Phillips is shooting for more of a "world outside your window" approach rather than the parody that Endocrine was intended to be. It would've been good fan service but I think (or at least I want to believe) that Phillips has his eye on a very different prize here.

You're right. The fact they're avoiding the obvious fan service approach is really a good sign.

This looks like a variation on the recommendation I made of creating movies which are intended to stay separate from each other. The article itself notes the kinder, gentler direction the DCEU is taking these days so this anthology sub-franchise is a good way of keeping things fresh and interesting.

Maybe we'll finally get those live-action Gotham by Gaslight and Red Son movies we've been hungering for.

I'm interested. Just the mere fact that this looks like a worthwhile attempt to make a movie rather than yet another MCU Saturday morning CGI comedy serial is enough to get my attention these days.

Same here. I don't begrudge other people enjoying those films. Especially children. But with the majority of superhero movies presently heading down the same increasingly homogenised path, it's nice to see a film that's moving in its own direction. Often a fascinating and unique train wreck (e.g. David Lynch's Dune, which I love) is more interesting than a successful film that plays it safe and doesn't deviate from the winning formula. Now I'm not saying this new Joker flick is going to be a train wreck. But even if it is, it might still make for a unique and interesting experience.

[The Dark Knight]

I enjoy a good action sequence as much as anybody, but I feel most are lazy, mind numbing (especially the MCU) and even time wasting. Unless there's some unique hook, the majority of action sequences are obligatory and drag too long. Most plots and dialogue seem to only be about justifying the avalanche of action to come. Shazam, for example, could've still easily kept me entertained without that final battle, or even if it was cut in half. Batman Returns wasn't exactly an action fest. What I'm saying, is if you strip the action away from these MCU films, what meat do they exactly have on their bones? The psychologies of Batman and the Joker have long interested people, and their personalities are strong enough to stand on their own without one punch even being thrown. Something that strives to be different from the typical studio formula should be welcomed.

[Silver Nemesis]

^ That picture is almost perfect. Almost. It's just missing one thing...