Joker (2019)

[thecolorsblend]

Here's an open question for everyone on the site. If you had to choose between this film or the Leto Joker & Harley movie, which would you be more interested in seeing? I'm fairly confident most of us would answer this question with: "Neither, I just want a good Batman film!" But for argument's sake, supposing you have to choose one. Which would it be and why? If you like the idea of a Joker spinoff, would one be preferable to the other? If you don't like the idea of a Joker spinoff, might one be a lesser evil than the other?

The Phoenix Joker origin movie.

That would not have been my answer two weeks ago. But it is my answer now.

The reason for this is because I've gotten a clearer sense of what Phillips is up to with The Joker. I've been on the record for a long time now saying that big tentpole releases with mega-budgets isn't the only way to skin this particular cat. Films with a more off-beat tone and smaller budgets could be just what the doctor ordered for DC characters.

The Phillips Joker movie satisfies nearly every request I've been making for a long while now. The only divergence (and, admittedly, it's a big one) is that this is a JOKER movie as opposed to a Batman movie.

But maybe that's small potatoes. Maybe what we need to do is establish that small budget features with an emphasis on character and style combined with a director with an actual VISION for the film can work. Then, perhaps, we can start expanding our thoughts to the more marquee characters.

All in all, this Joaquin Phoenix movie just looks more interesting to me than anything I've heard about the Harley & Joker film.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Leto's Joker, except maybe that the Suicide Squad movie didn't do his performance full justice. But Leto's Joker is inextricably linked to the DCEU and I do not believe that's necessarily positive anymore. Further, I can't help thinking that this Joker/Harley movie is mostly going to be a Harley-centric affair with Leto consigned to more of a supporting role. He'll be there to enable her to be Harley rather than to be the Joker. (A) I'm already starting to get a bit fed up with Harley. I love her as much as the next guy but c'mon people, she's not THAT interesting. And (B) I think Leto deserves something bigger by now.

[Silver Nemesis]

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Leto's Joker, except maybe that the Suicide Squad movie didn't do his performance full justice. But Leto's Joker is inextricably linked to the DCEU and I do not believe that's necessarily positive anymore. Further, I can't help thinking that this Joker/Harley movie is mostly going to be a Harley-centric affair with Leto consigned to more of a supporting role. He'll be there to enable her to be Harley rather than to be the Joker. (A) I'm already starting to get a bit fed up with Harley. I love her as much as the next guy but c'mon people, she's not THAT interesting. And (B) I think Leto deserves something bigger by now.

My main issue with the DCEU Joker is the lack of a clear, cohesive set of ideas underpinning his characterisation. This is less a criticism of Leto himself than the way the studio has handled the character. With the earlier screen Jokers, there was always a clear concept behind each iteration. Romero was the clown prankster. Nicholson was the homicidal artist. Ledger was the nihilistic terrorist. Their visual appearance told us something about their personality and philosophy: Romero had the distracting looks of a comedic showman who wants to draw attention to himself; Nicholson was a sharply-dressed narcissist whose post-surgical risus sardonicus reflected his morbid sense of humour and fascination with aesthetics; Ledger had the look of an unhygienic masochist who used self mutilation to illustrate his postmodernist views on the innate corruptibility of the human condition.

I can also see how each of these was derived from a different era of the comics. Romero was mostly the Silver Age Joker mixed with elements of the Golden Age version, minus his earliest appearances when he was a coldblooded killer. Nicholson was basically Steve Englehart's irrational Bronze Age Joker mixed with the Silver Age prankster version, visually patterned after the Dick Sprang and Brian Bolland designs. Ledger was a mixture of the original 1940 Joker with Grant Morrison's Modern Age version, and visually indebted to Dave McKean and Lee Bermejo's art work.

But with Leto, I'm still not sure what he's meant to be or what his appearance is meant to say about him. I can see how they took influence from Azzarello's Joker, the New 52 version and the All Star incarnation, but the end result just isn't very cohesive IMO. The previous Jokers functioned as antagonists to Batman, but Leto's Joker primarily exists to complement Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn. The DCEU initially presented him as a twisted villain, but now they're trying to realign him as a quirky antihero in his own movie. His relationship with Harley was at first disturbing and abusive, but now it looks like Warner Bros is trying to turn them into a loveable power couple. The murder of Robin was meant to be the dramatic launch pad for the DCEU Joker's rivalry with Batman, but they never followed up on that plotline in a meaningful way. Is he meant to be funny, scary, sympathetic or loathsome? I really can't tell. I guess what I'm saying is I can't see the angle on this Joker; the hook that's supposed to make him interesting and distinguish him from every other version.

With the earlier Jokers, I can see how the filmmakers hit their targets dead centre. But with Leto's Joker, I honestly don't even know what target they were aiming at in the first place. Or does the target keep changing? It's like they threw a ton of half-baked ideas into the mix in the hopes the resultant mishmash would yield something of interest. When what they should have done was to take just two or three of those ideas and develop them properly. In the case of the DCEU, they obviously wanted to focus more on Harley and have the Joker serve as her partner. So perhaps this version should have been a dashing, funny and romantic take on the character; more akin to the DCAU Joker than to Nicholson or Ledger's versions. In which case they should have done away with the grill and the tattoos, played up the humour, and downplayed the more disturbing aspects of the Joker/Harley relationship. That way his appearance and characterisation would have been carefully crafted to suit the role they needed him to play.

Leto's a fine actor and they might still redeem this version of the Joker if they proceed with a clearer sense of direction from now on. But he's already started off on the wrong foot, whereas Romero, Nicholson and Ledger all hit the ground running. With the new Phoenix Joker, it already looks as though they have a much more focused idea of what they want him to be. The biggest drawback is the lack of a Batman for him to fight. But if Affleck is indeed leaving the DCEU, then Leto's version won't have a nemesis to do battle with either. Perhaps if Phoenix's Joker proves popular enough, Warner Bros might go ahead and introduce a new Batman in the sequel. At any rate, I think the Phoenix Joker film has more potential than the Leto movie.

[thecolorsblend]

It's possible that the DCEU Joker may be permanently handicapped by not having a Batman against which to define himself. I hadn't considered that angle before but the Romero, Nicholson and Ledger Jokers all had Batmen against whom to match wits. Batman having such a clear sense of purpose in each of those iterations helped give definition to those versions of the Joker. The same arguably holds true for Conroy vs. Hamill when you think about it.

As you say, the DCEU Joker was introduced as a character to help define Harley. I suppose that makes sense on its own but the price for getting there is... well, let's face it. Leto's Joker probably isn't even remotely close to what Snyder had in mind when he envisioned a desecrated Robin uniform in Affleck's Batcave.

In any case, obviously I have no idea what'll happen with Phoenix's Joker. But considering goings on with the DCEU and Affleck, I won't be surprised if Phillips inserts Batman in some form into his movie, probably at the end. A flash-forward? But anyway, for now it seems like Phoenix's Joker will be defined over and against Thomas Wayne. That's not Batman but it's still a rival who can serve effectively the same narrative purpose.

[Silver Nemesis]

If reports are to be believed, then this movie may have given Affleck second thoughts about quitting the cowl.

"He is back in shape not only for his health but he has a new-found love on doing Batman at least one more time again. He feels he isn't finished with what he wants to do with the character. There has been talk about replacing him, but he is now seeing what he might lose and really wants to play the character again. Especially seeing what Joaquin Phoenix is doing with the Joker character," a source close to the actor/director tells HollywoodLife.com EXCLUSIVELY.

https://hollywoodlife.com/2018/10/02/ben-affleck-wants-to-play-batman-again-working-out-new-body/

[thecolorsblend]

Fandom makes us all continuity wonks. But I'm willing to overlook the continuity implications of mixing the DCEU Batman with this standalone Joker if it resuscitates Affleck's stint as Batman.

I can't shake the idea that this Phillips Joker movie is something more in line with Affleck's natural preferences anyway. It isn't a bad match to combine the best of the DCEU (ie, Affleck) with where it looks like this Joker film is headed.

[The Dark Knight]

I think it's more likely either 1, the Joker movie is a stand-alone spin-off, or 2, it's going to be in the same universe as Reeves' series with a new Batman. I'd like Affleck back in the role, but for whatever reason I'm just not that optimistic.

[Silver Nemesis]

More footage.

At this rate we'll soon have the entire movie.

[thecolorsblend]

Still not seeing anything I don't like. This has a ton of potential.

[The Joker]

If reports are to be believed, then this movie may have given Affleck second thoughts about quitting the cowl.

"He is back in shape not only for his health but he has a new-found love on doing Batman at least one more time again. He feels he isn't finished with what he wants to do with the character. There has been talk about replacing him, but he is now seeing what he might lose and really wants to play the character again. Especially seeing what Joaquin Phoenix is doing with the Joker character," a source close to the actor/director tells HollywoodLife.com EXCLUSIVELY.

https://hollywoodlife.com/2018/10/02/ben-affleck-wants-to-play-batman-again-working-out-new-body/

If this is actually the case, and factors into Affleck staying aboard as Batman, then intentional or not, I'll give this movie props on that alone.

[Silver Nemesis]

A familiar car has been sighted on set.