ral's blog - Batman does kill

[burtongenius]

     A hero isn't just a person who stops bad guys.  He's a person who stands up for the right thing.  You can't have one without the other.  I know batman is a scary creature.  He's Batman.  He uses that personage to scare people.  But that doesn't mean his ultimate mission is dark.  His mission is to stop bad guys because bruce wayne is a guy who believes in a good world.  Keaton says something like this toward the end of the movie (batman 89). "Its not a perfect world" or something to that extent when talking to Vicki twice (first visit, second visit) (first- "Its not a normal world", second- "Its not a perfect world").  He wants to clean out gotham.  He killed that clown guy in the second batman movie.  The reas was that he had to.  The guy was too big to be safely taken down.  That may seem unfair to the big guy, but you could also say he could cause more damage.  The point is that killing was the only way he was going to get out of that situation and batman has to do whatever he can to be able to do his hero duty.  And does everyone just forget that he tried to save napier's life in axis?

[The Dark Knight]

    A hero isn't just a person who stops bad guys.  He's a person who stands up for the right thing.  You can't have one without the other.  

Obviously. That's why he's out there in the first place. He has a crusade. It goes without saying.

I know batman is a scary creature.  He's Batman.  He uses that personage to scare people.  But that doesn't mean his ultimate mission is dark.  His mission is to stop bad guys because bruce wayne is a guy who believes in a good world.  

Obviously. He's a good guy behind a dark image. Simple.

And does everyone just forget that he tried to save napier's life in axis?

Yeah, that's before he finds out he's the killer of his parents. Before his crime fighting method changed.

[thecolorsblend]

I much prefer a Batman who kills. He must have a visible code, but he must be flawed and break that code once in a while if you ask me. Not that it's a flaw per-say, but like you said, he isn't Superman.

Again, I can only agree.  In fact, if I've got a gripe about modern DC Comics (and by that, I mean within the past twenty or so years), it's that Batman and Superman's roles in the DCU have gotten completely bass-ackwards.  You sometimes see images of Superman shrouded in darkness with glowing red eyes.  In TDK, Bruce talked about "wanting to inspire" people.

A hero isn't just a person who stops bad guys.  He's a person who stands up for the right thing.

And therefore I would argue that Batman is not a hero.

[burtongenius]

1. How is killing people mercilessly because they are bad and you are a super hero standing up for the right thing?

2. Good guy doesn't kill if doesn't have to unlike dark batman.

3. Napier is a ganster.  Batman has every right to let him drop according to the dark batman. And I have no idea how his crime fighting method changed.  Maybe I just didn't watch the movie as astutely?

[burtongenius]

In response to colorsblend.  Then why does he kill just bad guys if not a hero?

[The Dark Knight]

In response to colorsblend.  

You can quote people you know.

[thecolorsblend]

In response to colorsblend.  Then why does he kill just bad guys if not a hero?

Again, there is a quote button at the top of everyone's post.

A hero implies a certain virtue, purity and selflessness.  The hero is typically devoted to his cause (perhaps even singlemindedly so) but his actions and psychology are understood to be fundamentally good for society.

In other words, a hero is almost everything Batman isn't.

That doesn't cheapen Batman's goals.  He wants to rid the city of crime and corruption.  Honorable.  Heroic, even.

It's his methods that set him apart from a hero.  Batman busts into a known crime nest.  Where is his search warrant?

Batman beats the crap out of suspected perps.  Where is his due process?

Batman conducts aggressive, often brutal interrogations.  Where is Miranda?

Batman collects evidence.  Where is his court order?

Batman investigates ballistics, forensics and other things.  Where is his Internal Affairs division?

Batman takes the law into his own hands.  He's usually right when he busts into someone's home or when he beats the crap out of a perp.  But that doesn't make him any less a criminal by every definition of the word.  If any police department conducted their business the way Batman does, you'd have scandals from here to Christmas.

These are not the actions of a hero.  A hero has honorable goals, decent methods and honest results.  But Batman sure doesn't!  A hero works inside the system he's got; he doesn't violate society's rules and laws to serve his own agenda.  But Batman sure does!

Batman is a character loaded with contradictions and a paradox or two.

His hypocrisy is what makes him an interesting character.  It's what also makes him something other than a hero.

[The Dark Knight]

Agreed, colors.

Batman obviously has a crusade and stands up for the right thing, but he's more than just that.

Gordon's final quote in The Dark Knight summarised things perfectly.

"Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A dark knight."

Between you and me, I think we're wasting our time explaining all this.

[burtongenius]

I know he does things outside the law.  But he does it within reason.  He kills people who are trying and able to kill him, and he kills people that are trying to kill others if that is the only option.  He's batman remember.  The real point is to ask, and  I think this is where I think you're getting at, is whether his goals to stop bad people are for selfish reasons or for a humanity reason.  And if he does it purely for the first reason then the whole dynamics of the batman comics changes.  He becomes a real villain and wouldn't have a bat signal and wouldn't be friends with gordon.  A batman like that would've dropped johhny gobbs to the ground and would do the same for jack over the chemicals.
  And if he's the selfish, revengeful, psycho batman then he is no watchful protector.  He doesn't protect good.  He hurts bad guys to make himself feel better.
  Sorry about the quote thing- I am very computer challenged.

A hero has honorable goals - colorsblend both batmans I have mentioned have that same honorable goal.  The difference is whether it is selfish or not.  And batman doesn't have tot have decent methods.  He has to have reasonable methods.

[thecolorsblend]

Gordon's final quote in The Dark Knight summarised things perfectly.

"Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A dark knight."

01- It would take an actor of Gary Oldman's caliber to make that monologue work.
02- It's so true.  The idea of a "virtuous hero" Batman, to me, misses the entire point of the character.

Between you and me, I think we're wasting our time explaining all this.

No doubt.  But I view it like this.  This guy is going to keep posting this stuff.  I can ignore it and pretend like it's not there... except that future viewers may read it and think "hmmm, y'know, that burtongenius guy has a point".  Um, no!  He doesn't!

I know he does things outside the law.  He's batman remember.  The real point is to ask, and  I think this is where I think you're getting at, is whether his goals to stop bad people are for selfish reasons or for a humanity reason.

Actually, my point was to ask whether his actions are ultimately good for society.  I think on his best day, Batman's overall influence (but not necessarily his results) is not necessarily for the best.

As to his motivations, however, these tend to change depending on the creative driving force of the comic/cartoon/movie/whatever in question.

In the Burton films, I think it's clear that Bruce is acting out of a selfish agenda.  He is Batman, and not because he necessarily wants to make the world a better place but because he has to believe that there is Authority. That there is Order.

The Joker upsets that.  The Penguin and Shreck co-opt that.  Catwoman reflects who Batman is and what he's become.

Burton's Batman may bust a lot of criminals and protect Gotham from supervillains... but is he ultimately good for society?

In BB, I think it's obvious that Bruce wants to believe "it's not personal".  But it is.  Every major conflict in the movie is personal for Bruce.  The sacking of Wayne Manor.  The rampant graft and corruption in Gotham's official channels.  And, I think most significantly, Ghul using Wayne Tower as Ground Zero for the microwave emitter.

All of these are things Batman cannot abide.  And you cannot deny the personal stake he has in every single one of those things.  I'm not arguing that he wouldn't be involved if it didn't concern him/his family directly, but I am saying you cannot argue that there isn't a personal dimension to his inner conflicts, his agenda and his methods.

Bruce says he's not a vigilante in BB, and many viewers drank that Kool-Aid and followed him along on his next adventure in TDK.  And there they were faced with likely the same stark reality that Nolan had to confront.

Batman may be useful to the GCPD in certain times and under certain circumstances.  But make no mistake, he is a vigilante.  It is personal.

Batman is not a hero.

Sorry about the quote thing- I am very computer challenged.

It's not difficult.  Click it some time.