Superman 80th Anniversary Thread

[The Dark Knight]

The mindboggling thing is that you could argue that Knightfall/Knightquest/KnightsEnd were FAR better planned and executed than the Superman stuff. In January of 1992, the Batman creative teams largely knew exactly what they would be publishing in July of 1994. I sometimes think the Batman titles will never get the full amount of praise they deserve for their concepts and executions simply because they're so superficially similar to what the Superman titles did and, let's face it, Superman got their story out first (by accident).

Doomsday was a wild, uncontrolled animal with little mental capacity other than destroying everything in his path. Bane on the other hand was an intelligent, strategic scalpel who over time was abused as a character to ironically become something more like Doomsday. I think when they're presented in their best possible lights, both villains fit into the established rogues gallery really nicely, despite their origins as one and done stunts. Superman died, but he went out fighting and took Doomsday with him. Batman on the other hand was completely out of gas and humiliated on his own turf, with his conquerer ruling the city for a period of time afterwards. I can see why things were done differently for each character, but think Knightfall is the better story. But indeed, the Death of Superman was the bigger cultural event, and there's no room for debate on that. The simplicity is probably a big part of that. Superman dies, the world mourns, Superman returns. I don't think anything has matched it since, and I'd say it was the character's literary peak.

[thecolorsblend]

Doomsday was a wild, uncontrolled animal with little mental capacity other than destroying everything in his path. Bane on the other hand was an intelligent, strategic scalpel who over time was abused as a character to ironically become something more like Doomsday. I think when they're presented in their best possible lights, both villains fit into the established rogues gallery really nicely, despite their origins as one and done stunts. Superman died, but he went out fighting and took Doomsday with him. Batman on the other hand was completely out of gas and humiliated on his own turf, with his conquerer ruling the city for a period of time afterwards. I can see why things were done differently for each character, but think Knightfall is the better story. But indeed, the Death of Superman was the bigger cultural event, and there's no room for debate on that. The simplicity is probably a big part of that. Superman dies, the world mourns, Superman returns. I don't think anything has matched it since, and I'd say it was the character's literary peak.

I agree. Sadly.

There was an Imaginary Story published in Superman #149 (1962 or so) called "The Death Of Superman" that I think was an overall better story. Lex pretended to reform, only to betray and murder Superman. And honestly, I think this is how the story OUGHT to go. Never liked the idea of Superman getting beaten to death. Plus, in the 1962 story, Lex figured out Superman's TRUE weakness: He wants to see the best in everyone. So, rather than build yet another Ultimate Weapon, Lex uses Superman's own inherent goodness against him to devastating results. Personally, that seems a lot more dignified to me than a gigantic fist fight.

Anyway. That whole Doomsday/Funeral For A Friend/Reign Of The Supermen bit was the Post-Crisis Superman's high point for sure. Frankly, I don't think the Post-Crisis Superman ever recovered from it. Because I would say that starting with Byrne's Man Of Steel in 1986 to the end of Reign Of The Supermen is one of the best runs of any comic book EVER. But after ROTS, it was like the wheels came off the wagon for Superman. The stuff AFTER he came back from the dead just isn't as interesting as the pre-Doomsday stuff.

For me personally, I started inventing my own continuity. And maybe after Superman got killed by Doomsday, he never came back from the dead. When Doomsday killed him, that truly was the end of the line. Because some of those post-ROTS stories are just awful.

And again, you compare that to Batman. If anything, the Batman line of comics IMPROVED after KnightsEnd. And they were already pretty good to start with. So many good Batman stories after then. Prodigal, Contagion, Legacy, Cataclysm/No Man's Land, the list just goes on. Knightfall didn't ruin Batman. But I think you could argue (easily) that Doomsday ruined Superman.

You do raise an interesting point about Bane and Doomsday being frequently mishandled. If someone writes a stupid Bane or an intelligent Doomsday, it's fair to say that he missed the point of both characters.

[The Dark Knight]

I liked Funeral for a Friend a lot, as much as the slugfest, and it doesn't even feature Superman. I think it's because the character's strength has always been an idea: a conversation that people have amongst themselves. It's also that people don't appreciate what they have until it's gone, and when it returns so does the status quo. As Batman said in a comic, "let's face it Superman, the last time when you really inspired anyone was when you were dead."

The aftermath of the death had an element of mystery with the individuals claiming to be Superman, and managed to show the universe in which Superman lived in could be interesting in its own right. The imposters all had traits of the real deal, but only served to prove there can only be One. I remember the content with the Kents being emotional, and that's coming from someone who doesn't often feel that way. I also really, really like the concept of Lex gloating over his nemesis' coffin as well. He finally got what he wanted.

In terms of the method of death, I don't mind a slugfest. It makes sense for him to go out that way. Such a strong force needs something stronger to finally grind him to a halt. But if I really had to choose, I'd go with All Star Superman. There's a certain elegance that death provides. It's a sickness (the solar radiation) that gives him a tragic, romantic doom. His life is ticking away, moment by moment. He knows it too, but still retains his inner peace and sense of morality. Before the end he gets Lex to see things his way, says one last goodbye to Lois and makes his final sacrifice on his own terms.

To me, Knightfall is a celebration of what makes Batman great. We get to see a broad selection of his rogues gallery and through the onslaught we are left with his biggest strength, which is never giving up. In the end this proves to be his downfall. He won't allow himself to rest whenever the signal is lit. He had never really been beaten like this before and I think it needed to happen. He had lost friends and allies, which is personal pain. But experiencing physical pain yourself is very different, and forced Bruce to stare down the very real possibility his crime fighting career was over.

[The Joker]

There was an Imaginary Story published in Superman #149 (1962 or so) called "The Death Of Superman" that I think was an overall better story. Lex pretended to reform, only to betray and murder Superman. And honestly, I think this is how the story OUGHT to go. Never liked the idea of Superman getting beaten to death. Plus, in the 1962 story, Lex figured out Superman's TRUE weakness: He wants to see the best in everyone. So, rather than build yet another Ultimate Weapon, Lex uses Superman's own inherent goodness against him to devastating results. Personally, that seems a lot more dignified to me than a gigantic fist fight.

I'd argue that the spectacle of a gigantic fist fight to the death with a Hulk-like beast played out rather almost 'too perfect'. Especially for the time period we're talking about. Unlike current day, just the mere notion that a comic book character like Superman was going to be killed off, was something that had actual weight to it. As the notion of death was treated with much more earnest. Which I think served not only the story itself, but also the public and reader perception that Superman could and would be killed by a mysterious wrecking ball of a beast that not only decimates anything in it's path, but (evidently given the bird scene) thoroughly enjoys the destruction and agony that it wrecks. We as the readers already knew how this story was going to end. DC literally made no bones about that. The anticipation to that happening, along with the shrewd creative decision to, with each subsequent comic, reduce the panel count, subconsciously indicating to the reader that the 'countdown' to the Death of Superman is in full effect, and to where Superman Vol.2 #75 was only beautifully illustrated splash pages by Dan Jurgens, all played their part in what captivated and engrossed the readers during the entire "Doomsday" arc.

Something like this, with such unbridled anticipation, had never been handled with such precision before, and it was duly noted.

Sure, I can imagine a much more cerebral story involving Lex or whom have you, but personally, I wouldn't change a thing in this regard.

Anyway. That whole Doomsday/Funeral For A Friend/Reign Of The Supermen bit was the Post-Crisis Superman's high point for sure. Frankly, I don't think the Post-Crisis Superman ever recovered from it. Because I would say that starting with Byrne's Man Of Steel in 1986 to the end of Reign Of The Supermen is one of the best runs of any comic book EVER. But after ROTS, it was like the wheels came off the wagon for Superman. The stuff AFTER he came back from the dead just isn't as interesting as the pre-Doomsday stuff.

I think Batman enjoyed a more steady hand with Denny as the guiding hand, than what was going on with Superman at the time. As a kid reading this stuff back then, the whole Superman Blue/Red, Superman Forever, Wedding issue, Trial, Lex getting married, Lex becoming President, ect just kinda came across as stuff to keep the interest in the books alive, rather than what we got out of the Byrne reboot, the some years afterwards, where it came across as much more organicaly focused overall and not so scattershot. Jurgens leaving the Superman titles to jump over to Marvel probably didn't do the Superman books any favors either. Also, wasn't there a big pitch behind the scenes, only a year or two following the Wedding issue, that wanted to do away with the whole marriage thing, and revert back to the status quo where not only are Lois and Clark not married but she wouldn't even know Clark's identity as Superman any longer as well?

Course, something like "Doomsday/Death/Funeral/Reign/Return would be a very difficult act to follow.

Speaking of Reign of the Supermen .....

[thecolorsblend]

Also, wasn't there a big pitch behind the scenes, only a year or two following the Wedding issue, that wanted to do away with the whole marriage thing, and revert back to the status quo where not only are Lois and Clark not married but she wouldn't even know Clark's identity as Superman any longer as well?

Superman 2000 (http://theages.superman.nu/History/2000/SUPERMAN2000.php) was a spec pitch assembled by Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Tom Peyer.

Their ambitions went far beyond simply removing the marriage from the equation. They were wholesale reinventing Superman. Byrne's 1986 origin would remain intact. Some people have described it as a reboot. But that was never anyone's intention. The idea was to take the existing continuity and move it in a decidedly more Pre-Crisis direction.

And to be fair to all parties involved, sales on (and interest in) the Superman titles had been waning since 1993. The various stunt storylines would temporarily spike sales. But then sales reverted to the mean. Superman 2000 would've at least been something more unique.

So, why didn't it happen? Well, it nearly did. But the reason it got cancelled is because Morrison, Waid, Peyer and Millar APPEAR to have gone over Mike Carlin's head in pitching Superman 2000 to higher level DC management (i.e., Jeanette Kahn and Paul Levitz). As I heard the story, Carlin was on vacation when the writers submitted their ideas. And it is fair to ask if they deliberately waited until Carlin was out of the picture to make their move. Because Superman 2000 would've steamrolled massive parts of Carlin's custodianship of the character. So, did they wait for him to leave town hoping to sneak by him?

For a lot of reasons, there was no love lost between Carlin and Waid. So, when Carlin came back from vacation and found out what was happening, he put the kibosh on the entire thing... which he had the executive authority to do as a senior DC editor. Apparently, all four writers were blackballed from mainstream Superman comics for as long as Carlin had anything to say about it. Indeed, all of them have written very little in-continuity Superman. It took Morrison years to finally get there.

Bits and pieces of Superman 2000 popped up in stuff like Waid's Birthright, Morrison's All-Star Superman and Mark Millar's Red Son. But honestly, I think fans are the ones who truly lost out on something here. Superman 2000 would at least have taken the character in a different direction rather than retreading old ideas (Doomsday, Dead Again, The Death Of Clark Kent, etc.). I just can't imagine Superman 2000 being worse than the Superman titles we DID get from, say, 1999-2003.

As a general thing, it seems like the common denominator with Mark Waid is that he makes enemies basically everywhere he goes. Whether it's DC, Marvel, Boom Studios or wherever else, sooner or later he seems to alienate people around him. It gets to a point where you sort of have to wonder if Waid himself might be the problem.

Speaking of Carlin, he commissioned house ads like that all the time. He kept an eye on other DC offices and if Green Arrow, for example, had extra space for whatever reason, he'd ask them to include a Superman house ad in their book.

As a result, Superman had some amazing house ads during Carlin's tenure. But that ROTS house ad is one of the best.

What was cool (and what people seem to forget) is that Adventures Of Superman #500 came out, briefly introduced all four Supermen, there was a "lag week" where nothing came out and then Adventures Of Superman #501, Superman #78, Superman: The Man Of Steel #22 and Action Comics #687 all came out on the same day. It was a pretty effective way of stunning and confusing the audience, stoking interest in what was coming, etc.

For myself, the only "Superman" I didn't like was the Cyborg... which is funny considering the reveal that came later with him. I liked the other three Supermen and wanted them to stick around in some form or another... which is more or less what happened.

[The Joker]

Superman 2000 (http://theages.superman.nu/History/2000/SUPERMAN2000.php) was a spec pitch assembled by Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Tom Peyer.

Their ambitions went far beyond simply removing the marriage from the equation. They were wholesale reinventing Superman. Byrne's 1986 origin would remain intact. Some people have described it as a reboot. But that was never anyone's intention. The idea was to take the existing continuity and move it in a decidedly more Pre-Crisis direction.

And to be fair to all parties involved, sales on (and interest in) the Superman titles had been waning since 1993. The various stunt storylines would temporarily spike sales. But then sales reverted to the mean. Superman 2000 would've at least been something more unique.

Funny enough, that's pretty much what happened following "Infinite Crisis" back in 2005. Moving Superman into a more Pre-Crisis direction. Complete with Geoff Johns bringing in Richard Donner for a spell, the Superboy background being re-instated, the Jor-El hologram appearing now with a head full of white hair (surely a nod to Brando), the Fortress of Solitude being incredibly reminiscent of the Donnerverse Fortress, ect ect. Course all of this was basically paralleled with 2006's "Superman Returns", so the coordination was certainly on point.

So, why didn't it happen? Well, it nearly did. But the reason it got cancelled is because Morrison, Waid, Peyer and Millar APPEAR to have gone over Mike Carlin's head in pitching Superman 2000 to higher level DC management (i.e., Jeanette Kahn and Paul Levitz). As I heard the story, Carlin was on vacation when the writers submitted their ideas. And it is fair to ask if they deliberately waited until Carlin was out of the picture to make their move. Because Superman 2000 would've steamrolled massive parts of Carlin's custodianship of the character. So, did they wait for him to leave town hoping to sneak by him?

For a lot of reasons, there was no love lost between Carlin and Waid. So, when Carlin came back from vacation and found out what was happening, he put the kibosh on the entire thing... which he had the executive authority to do as a senior DC editor. Apparently, all four writers were blackballed from mainstream Superman comics for as long as Carlin had anything to say about it. Indeed, all of them have written very little in-continuity Superman. It took Morrison years to finally get there.

Bits and pieces of Superman 2000 popped up in stuff like Waid's Birthright, Morrison's All-Star Superman and Mark Millar's Red Son. But honestly, I think fans are the ones who truly lost out on something here. Superman 2000 would at least have taken the character in a different direction rather than retreading old ideas (Doomsday, Dead Again, The Death Of Clark Kent, etc.). I just can't imagine Superman 2000 being worse than the Superman titles we DID get from, say, 1999-2003.

Interesting. Sounds like there were some shenanigans going on with the pitch being formally proposed at just the time Carlin was absent. I can only assume some of these ideas were previously brought up, perhaps casually, perhaps not, and immediately shot down by Carlin. Giving the group the idea that they can just wait till Carlin's on vacation, present the pitch to Kahn and Levitz, and bank on the notion that they would have plausible deniability on not following the direct chain of command due to Carlin's absence.

The pitch, had it been approved, definitely would have shook up the rather stagnated Superman line at the time, but who really knows where this would have gone? As "Infinite Crisis" (and the subsequent fallout of many Pre-Crisis elements returning as a consequence) would have surely taken place regardless.

As a general thing, it seems like the common denominator with Mark Waid is that he makes enemies basically everywhere he goes. Whether it's DC, Marvel, Boom Studios or wherever else, sooner or later he seems to alienate people around him. It gets to a point where you sort of have to wonder if Waid himself might be the problem.

I can appreciate Waid's passion for Superman, and being a historian for the lore, but from what I understand about the guy's behavior behind the scenes, he's his own worst enemy.

Speaking of Carlin, he commissioned house ads like that all the time. He kept an eye on other DC offices and if Green Arrow, for example, had extra space for whatever reason, he'd ask them to include a Superman house ad in their book.

As a result, Superman had some amazing house ads during Carlin's tenure. But that ROTS house ad is one of the best.

What was cool (and what people seem to forget) is that Adventures Of Superman #500 came out, briefly introduced all four Supermen, there was a "lag week" where nothing came out and then Adventures Of Superman #501, Superman #78, Superman: The Man Of Steel #22 and Action Comics #687 all came out on the same day. It was a pretty effective way of stunning and confusing the audience, stoking interest in what was coming, etc.

For myself, the only "Superman" I didn't like was the Cyborg... which is funny considering the reveal that came later with him. I liked the other three Supermen and wanted them to stick around in some form or another... which is more or less what happened.

I seem to remember some people at one of the LCS thinking Cyborg was actually the favorite in being Superman, out of the four Supermen introduced, but I never really could go along with it. Sure, DC did a good job in how they handled Cyborg's initial interaction with Lois, and his emotional response to seeing Doomsday again during Reign, ect. But it just seemed a bit too deliberate overall. Course Cyborg Supes obliterated that facade soon after in dramatic fashion, along with Coast City going boom. 

[The Joker]

Another vintage ad.

[The Joker]

[thecolorsblend]

George Perez ended up not sticking around very long. But the small amount of work he managed to do was awesome. Some of his very best.

[The Laughing Fish]