Rate Justice League!

[The Laughing Fish]

If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would.

Take it easy, amico mio. I know you didn't think he meant to die, I only wanted to share that screenshot over what Snyder had in mind for Justice League 2, and it triggered a thought. That's all.

[Azrael]

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would.

Given the quality of Justice League, it's only natural to believe and assume the worst.

[thecolorsblend]

If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would. It would've been about atoning for his perceived sins during BvS. The falling Batmobile cannon shell in slow motion during the red sky finale gives it away. We see this same visual signifier during the Wayne murders and Superman's funeral.

I'm guessing Bats wanted to attract the Parademon swarms so he could be granted a good death, perhaps evoking the beginning of TDK Returns where he pushes his car to breaking point, only to eject seconds before immolation. I'd say in the film, Aquaman or some other member would've rescued him before this took place. The studio would've freaked and thus the reshoots were ordered to change the context of certain things...which is a real shame because all the deeper meaning and character growth is now glossed over and simplified. But it is what it is.

As for the DCEU as a whole, I'd be lying if I said my enthusiasm hadn't taken a hit. I was happy as a clam during the MoS and BvS days, even though the critics and media were on the warpath. JL is still an enjoyable film for all its issues, but what did it really achieve? It pleased some people but frustrated others. It certainly didn't bank as much cash as it should have.

I'm positive Snyder was going to lighten the mood somewhat (Barry drawing on that guy's face was his scene) but the company version of JL was definitely a lurch in direction to the MCU, which doesn't appeal to me that much.

Four of the hollowest words I've ever seen plastered anywhere is JL's 'Directed by Zack Snyder' credit. It seems The Big Z stuck to his guns throughout the filmmaking process, and the studio cautiously went along with it. But as things progressed they needed any excuse to shaft the guy, and it just so happened to be his daughter's death.

The spark is still alive with my fandom, but it's not with the DCEU as much. It's more with the usual suspects (B66, B89, etc) right now. The Telltale series is also a huge factor in keeping me engaged, and of course the comics. Problem is I don't have as much time to enjoy this stuff as I used to. But fandom as a concept isn't going anywhere with me. It never truly dies, it just remains dormant.

I have to really *feel* something to be excited and engaged. I felt that with Snyder, and that whole situation poured cold water on my DCEU vibe, mixed in with Batfleck's future. It's still okay....but just not what I'd like it to be. I just wish they allowed Snyder's film to be made before moving on with their new direction.

This is a good point and something I'd forgotten about. I got the idea that Batman had secretly assigned himself a suicide mission, partly because it needed to be done and partly because he probably would regard it as penance. And you're right, it probably would've been more apparent in Snyder's cut. But the way things are now with Josstice League, it's watered down.

If it came out tomorrow that Snyder tried having his name taken off the movie... yeah, I'd understand.

[The Dark Knight]

I like this detail.

[Dagenspear]

As for the DCEU as a whole, I’d be lying if I said my enthusiasm hadn’t taken a hit. I was happy as a clam during the MoS and BvS days, even though the critics and media were on the warpath. JL is still an enjoyable film for all its issues, but what did it really achieve? It pleased some people but frustrated others. It certainly didn’t bank as much cash as it should have.

That's the thing about this movie. I think not everyone was ever gonna be happy. Either way this is the ultimate conclusion of what the other movies were building towards, whether story wise or business wise. It is just bland though. I'm meh on it personally. It's a shame either way. I never wanted Whedon involved. I liked Avengers, but it was mainly a popcorn movie and not what I wanted for the movie. At the time I think I expected Buffy s3 and instead got Buffy s4. AOU was messy too for me. I feel like JL is Buffy s1, That's not a compliment.

I honestly am intrigued to see how what Snyder wanted would've played out. It sounds like it was gonna be like a clashing of each of the character's worlds, which is what I wanted for Avengers. Though I agree with the studio in that it shouldn't be 3 hours. Same with BvS, I've said before that a 3 hour superhero movie shouldn't be necessary. Though I there was always going to be problems, like making the movie a 2 parter and over-crowding a movie with things, having Steppenwolf being used to set-up Darkseid instead of just having the villain be Darkseid, trying to pay off things that weren't setup well or developed well like certain characters and the world in regards to Superman.

I’m positive Snyder was going to lighten the mood somewhat (Barry drawing on that guy’s face was his scene) but the company version of JL was definitely a lurch in direction to the MCU, which doesn’t appeal to me that much.

See, I thought that was Joss Whedon's. It felt awkward. I thought they digitally added him doing that in post, which now makes me wonder what the point of that scene would've been if not for that, so I guess that makes sense that it was his. I'm inclined to think Snyder likely learned his lesson and would've changed up the tone. The issue is would that have changed the issues with the other movies and I don't think so, which would've made the payoff nice, but ultimately not earned.

[The Laughing Fish]

If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

What you're not really understanding, is the new director credit only applies to a certain percentage of re-shoots. What happened with JL, is Whedon used a lot of existing footage, but rearranged it to a new script. One of the first scenes in the original script, was Bruce trying to get Arthur/Aquaman. It's why there was such a weird edit with his beard. In the version we got, Batman/Bruce was clean shaven, and then out of nowhere, he has a full beard, and then the reshoots make a point of Bruce saying he has to shave again. It was all rearranged in a completely different order.

So Whendon just used a bunch of preexisting footage, and then shot a few new scenes, to then come up with a different version of what was originally supposed to be. You basically get a completely different movie altogether, with only having to re-shoot a certain percentage of the film.

Despite knowing a lot of footage in the trailers were deleted from the final theatrical cut, I have to admit, I couldn't believe the film had been drastically changed from what Snyder had intended. Not so much the rearrangement of scenes, but more so the large portions of the plot. Call me being in a state of denial, and I wouldn't hold it against you. But at the time, I didn't want to believe that WB had misled everybody over the circumstances in Snyder's departure and Whedon getting involved.

When the news broke out he was leaving, The Hollywood Reporter specifically stated Snyder decided to bring Whedon on board to finish the film. Additionally, the WB president was quoted saying "The directing is minimal and it has to adhere to the style and tone and the template that Zack set. We're not introducing any new characters. It's the same characters in some new scenes. He's handing the baton to Joss, but the course has really been set by Zack. I still believe that despite this tragedy, we'll still end up with a great movie."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/zack-snyder-steps-down-justice-league-deal-family-tragedy-1006455

Of course, everything we were told was a lie, judging by what Jay Oliva has revealed over the last six months or so on Twitter, and Snyder himself giving clues on Vero. The final straw for me was when Snyder said he didn't know anything about that Russian family in the film, which means it was a new subplot created by Whedon.



This entire ordeal has been a massive PR disaster. I am at odds over what to make of this bullsh*t. It's bad enough we STILL don't know for sure if Affleck and Cavill are leaving, but this is a new level of incompetence. You don't mislead your audience into believing a narrative.

Maybe one can assume WB didn't want to confirm they had fired Snyder because it would look cruel following his daughter's death, but if you ask me, that would assume they have a moral compass. Which I doubt they do.

Judging by what Snyder said about not wanting narratives spin out of control in that THR interview discussing his daughter, maybe he compromised by signing a non-disclosure agreement with WB to protect his reputation, as well as doing for what he thought would be best for the film.

I have no idea. All I know is I personally find WB's handling over this to be very unethical and irresponsible. I'd be really surprised if I pay to see any of their movies ever again.

[thecolorsblend]

Fish is right. People understand when movie studios lie to save face. It's not okay but it's understandable. WB lied through their teeth about how successful they thought Superman Returns was. But they were saving face so... whatever. It isn't a big deal.

It's also different if they lie to protect against spoilers, even honest ones. Miranda Tate being an original character rather than Talia in disguise was a lie that WB told because they honestly (so to speak) had no choice. Every dummy in the world could guess the truth but they had to keep up appearances. So I get that. They were just trying to control the intel about the movie, that's all.

But outright lying about what Whedon wouldn't be doing to Snyder's film is over the line. They looked us in the eye and told us a bald faced lie. The true story was they wanted Whedon to "save" the movie and I understand why they wouldn't want to say so out lout. But there were other ways of spinning this story to avoid lying to us.

This is a major black eye for WB in my opinion.

[The Dark Knight]

It sure is.

WB lied about everything. They spoke about respecting Snyder but all of their conduct shows the studio dancing on his grave and ripping his original vision to shreds. The finished product is not a Zack Snyder film, plain and simple.

This saga has been a real kick in the guts to the point I nearly shunned BvS. But at least we have BvS. Sure...it hurts that we didn't get a proper conclusion to that arc, but it's still a damn good movie. Right alongside the Burton films for me. Even if Affleck is done (and sadly I think he is), his appearance in BvS is all I need for him to be a great. Branding the criminal, attending the party, the training scene, fighting Superman, the warehouse.....just awesome.




We're missing the third frame. Justice League is unfinished business. Zack Snyder's interrupted revolution.

[thecolorsblend]

We're missing the third frame. Justice League is unfinished business. Zack Snyder's interrupted revolution.

The imagery there begs for interpretation. MOS- Revelation. BVS- Confrontation. JL- Reunion? Resurrection? Rapprochement? It makes sense that Snyder would have revisited that image in order to resolve the theme.

Such a waste.

[The Laughing Fish]

The imagery there begs for interpretation. MOS- Revelation. BVS- Confrontation. JL- Reunion? Resurrection? Rapprochement? It makes sense that Snyder would have revisited that image in order to resolve the theme.

Such a waste.

If that shot were to recur in the what was intended for JL, my guess would've been a crowd of people cheering showing their love and appreciation for Superman for everything he did for humanity. It would've a fitting conclusion towards acceptance, following the initial skepticism in MOS and division towards him in BvS; and his coming back to life would've made such a moment even more emotional.

Instead, we get nothing. That remains my biggest criticism of the theatrical cut of JL. We get no reaction or insight from the world, not even Metropolis, towards his rebirth. It's hollow.

Such a waste.

Indeed. I really do hope this original cut does see the light of day.