Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***

[The Laughing Fish]

Wow, I just looked around on a few sites and forums, and the hate this movie is getting is probably worse than BvS. It's out of control. And I can't tell you how many reviews have used the phrase "male gaze", as a huge form of criticism of the movie, and somehow trying to say Snyder is a sexist. Normally, I don't give a sh*t about critics, but what I'm seeing is like nothing else. It's just....odd.

That sexist accusation is a LIE. There was absolutely nothing offensive or objectifying of any women in this film at all. These bastards should take a look at Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, and see how Drax talks to Mantis. But don't give a f***, do they? All they could say "it's fun".

And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

Kermode has proven to be a complete and utter tool. Every one of these pathetic critics who make up slanderous claims and misrepresents movies should be fired. If anybody didn't see Batman's character development in this film, at the very least, they're lying on purpose, or they're hopelessly braindead. But what do you expect, these people think Christopher Nolan's Batman films are intelligent.

There's nothing wrong in criticising movies, but when I read slanderous garbage like that, I'm seriously convinced there's an agenda going on there. I was never personally a Zack Snyder fan and he has his flaws, but now I've come to realise that he's nowhere near as bad as these liars are saying. What the hell is going on here? Did Snyder do something to piss off the industry? Is there politics going on behind the scenes we don't know about? Because if somebody like Nolan and a company like Marvel can get away with glaring faults, then I see no reason for the criticism of Snyder to be this vitriolic. It's an absolute disgrace.

[The Dark Knight]

Wow, I just looked around on a few sites and forums, and the hate this movie is getting is probably worse than BvS. It's out of control. And I can't tell you how many reviews have used the phrase "male gaze", as a huge form of criticism of the movie, and somehow trying to say Snyder is a sexist. Normally, I don't give a sh*t about critics, but what I'm seeing is like nothing else. It's just....odd.

And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=hsLcTO2a0Ec

They're so predictable and ridiculous. It's a competition between critics of who can rip the movie apart with the most hyperbolic language. The level of hate is to the point of parody. The same people who hated BvS and slammed it for being 'too dark' are hating on JL because it's 'lighter' and a 'poor man's Avengers substitute'. There's no pleasing them. The same old haters are STILL hating, but now because DC gave them what they asked for.

If this had a Marvel logo on it, critics would be FAWNING.

And what annoys me possibly more than the critics are the dumb sheep who glimpse at the Tomato Meter and then say "ugh, they screwed up again, I'm not seeing this." I have issues with the movie, but to say 'bring back George Clooney' is attention seeking rubbish. I am utterly done with this game they play, which is trying to discourage the fan base with a monster pile on.

That is beyond exaggeration. I think the film for me falls on the same level as Batman Forever and Superman II. It has a lot of issues, but is still worth watching. People trying to play this up as a complete train wreck either haven't seen a real train wreck (Jaws the Revenge, Troll 2, King Kong Lives, The Room, Birdemic) or are just riding the hype train (next stop something else) or both, probably both. (Although, personally, I think most of the Transformer movies make B&R look like Citizen Kane, but even that's hyperbole.)

Yep. It's really silly.

[The Laughing Fish]

This is very interesting. Forbes reviewers Mark Hughes has come out and claimed his review of JL was somehow posted on Rotten Tomatoes without his consent, and it was labeled "rotten" despite it was anything but negative.



He elaborates more here: https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/status/931306275413090305

I remember somebody once mentioned that Rotten Tomatoes' binary aggregate system is deeply flawed because it immediately labels mixed reviews as negative. This is an screenshot somebody uploaded on that Twitter Feed, comparing the mixed reviews between Thor Ragnarok and BvS. Pay close attention to the rating each of these reviewers gave the movie, yet one movie is called "fresh" while the other is "rotten".



It doesn't make any sense, does it?

[The Joker]

I'm just dropping off my review below, but will make it a point in reading read all of you guy's reviews when I get time later today or tomorrow.


---



Justice League is a film I would describe as far from perfect. An enjoyable "fun" ride, but something I would consider a step back from MOS, BvS, and WW. I agree with the consensus that JL is a better film than Suicide Squad, but at the same time, I distinctly remember commenting in the SS thread that that particular film was the most "MCU" out of the DCEU films thus far. Well, that's no longer the case anymore. JL has taken over the reigns with that distinction.

The production issues are pretty upfront and center, being painfully obvious to the viewer. It's 121 minutes and you can feel it that it has been cut down to size to include only what pushes the plot forward. Some scenes come acrosss as ending abruptly, which leaves you with a sense that there should've been more. And from what I can tell, there was. The editing is, I suppose, more competent than SS ended up being, but the tone didn't come across as consistent. Atleast to me. I can't sit here and name you every instance a Whedon directed scene complete with the Whedonisms pops up, I'll leave that to those who are more keen with that, but the film opens up feeling like a Zack Snyder movie, especially with the "Everybody Knows" track, but ends up coming across like a more watchable standard MCU team up movie by the time the end credits role.

Anyways, to the league itself:

Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman is outstanding as always. She gets a decent arc and enough screentime, with good action scenes. I noticed that a good portion of her scenes as Diana Prince has alot of ass shots, and that works for me. Ah ha ha ha oh hee hee ha. I really liked seeing the Old Gods during the flashback battle with Steppenwolf and his hordes. We see Artemis (love the glowing arm and bow), what i can only assume is Zeus, and a buddy said he saw Ares. Also, the alien Green Lantern was a nice cameo. In addition, I was satisfied that the Amazon's weren't just there to get smacked down by Steppenwolf to prove him being a serious threat. They put up a good fight and went above and beyond, displaying of just how impressive and determined they are.

Ben Affleck as Batman is, again, enjoyable to watch. I think he did the best he could do with what was given, but unfortunately I didn't leave the theater thinking he had his moment to shine in battle as a member of the league like he did in BvS. I guess you could sorta count Batman shooting parademons inside the Batmobile being his action moment, but there never was that sort of level like "Batman saving Martha Kent" scene with JL. Maybe I'll change my mind upon my 2nd viewing, but I just don't think it was there. To me, the highlights with Affleck's Batman in JL come during the one-on-one dialogue he has with Gal's Diana. Discussing their history, their different opinons on how to battle Steppenwolf, and not being shy about referring to Steve Trevor as Diana's "dead boyfriend", which seems like a Batman-like thing he would do anyways. In my estimation, these were his most memorable scenes.

Jason Mamoa as Aquaman. I can dig this version of Aquaman. I thought the scenes of Bruce going out to find him, and his reluctance to take part in anything Affleck's Bruce was cooking to be pretty good. I thought the stuff with Mera and the Atlanteans was, even though brief, ok, and the idea that they are essentially hydromancers who don't swim per se, letting the water move them rather, was a different cool approach. Though in alot of ways, I think all that stuff could have waited until the Aquaman movie. Perhaps with Aquaman only referring to Atlantis and his people, rather than us actually seeing them in JL. I think Mamoa's Aquaman plays off of others well, and the scene where's he's being "truthful" about his thoughts on the other leaguers not knowing he's under Wonder Woman's lasso's spell was pretty hilarious.

Ezra Miller as Flash. Well, I actually liked this guy alot more than I was thinking I would going into this movie. Course he very much comes across as more Wally West from the DCAU's JL/JLU than he does Barry Allen, but I thought he balanced being likeable, the comic relief, the fan boy, and not end up coming across as completely annoying quite well. A Flashpoint movie seems like it would be alot more fun now, and similar to Season One of CW's Flash, I can see how Barry's inexperience is going to play a factor in being outclassed by the DCEU Reverse Flash in Flashpoint. Assuming he's in it.

Ray Fisher as Cyborg. Definitely the most underdeveloped leaguer in the whole movie. From what I gather, his background was more fleshed out under Zack Snyder's original cut for JL, and it's a shame that stuff was cut, but this can be mended.  He deserves his own movie, I think the the character's potential is too potent to be regulated as only appearing in JL movies.

Henry Cavill as Superman is awesome like usual. Not a ton of screentime for him, but he makes it count. From the opening flashback handheld shot scene, I have to say I really dug Superman's reaction to the kid's question. That is a beautiful Superman moment, and probably stands as one of my favorite film Superman moments ever. The Clark/Lois was good, and seeing Martha reunite with her son was nice. Also, I have to say that moment where he's taking on the Justice League following his resurrection, and Superman's eyes slowly turn toward a already zooming-past Flash, with Flash' reaction being completely stunned. Classic stuff! Cavill is a beast playing a bad-ish Superman immediately following his coming back from the dead, but if it were up to me, I would have atleast had Aquaman and especially Wonder Woman be more of a challenge to him than what was ultimately conveyed. Batman was obviously grossly overmatched. Flash couldn't rely on his speed against Superman, which was his only go to. Aquaman and Cyborg couldn't hang. Wonder Woman got some licks in (especially that headbutt retort!), but she too felt like she was incredibly overwhelmed by Superman's power. I am not such a WW fanboy to suggest she just totally kick his ass with ease, cause that wouldn't happen, but a more competitive fight between the two would have been better I think. Especially with her experience, and hell, for awhile she was practically holding Doomsday at bay! I guess I have comics like the over-sized Teasurey Edition Superman vs. Wonder Woman from the 1970's, and a "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" issue of Wonder Woman where she's clearly the underdog, but can indeed toss Superman around and knock him back 100 yards away with a punch.   

Another thing that kinda got on my nerves, was when Superman comes back, he's so happy and 100% Superman-like, that it came across so unearned. BvS took a more 'real world approach' to the material. Giving us the politics of such a being showing himself to the world, and the world being decidedly split on Superman's role on earth. So while he was a beacon to a lot of people, he was also hated by a lot as well. This was a huge conflict for Superman on both sides and it honestly never got truly resolved in a satisfactory way. With one half, Superman is hated and is bothered by the backlash, with the other half. he's worshipped and appears to be uncomfortable with that notion as well. I get that Superman's death in BvS was supposed to have, I guess, change alot of people's minds about him. However with the narrative from BvS, I think for those who didn't like Superman initially, and perhaps softened on their dislike following his death, would be especially unnerved by him coming back from the dead. To me, that would likely exasperate the anxiety for those who had a problem about his presence on earth. He can do whatever he wants, when he wants, aaand can't be killed?!? For the other side, it would probably exasperate their hero-worship of him. Course I don't expect to see this address in any future DCEU film. Especially with Zack Snyder gone, and WB clearly wanting to take the 'shared universe' set of films to something more simple and family friendly, but yeah, It felt too much like a course correction and not at all like a natural development.

Speaking of Snyder, and talking about this film, it really makes me wonder what his original cut of JL looked like.... According to the net, it was supposedly deemed, 'unwatchable', but the net can often be incredibly unreliant. Wasn't it reported shortly before Wonder Woman premiered that it was a mess of a film? Yeah right. From what I gather, I think it's easy to surmise that in Snyder's WB/Whedon-less version, Superman was probably brought back to life by Steppenwolf and was evil/brainwashed for at least most of the movie. The Jurassic Park-esque scene from one of the trailer's of Superman approaching Alfred in the Batcave and Alfred remarking, "Let's hope you're not too late.", which BTW, isn't in the film, kinda gives off this impression. Much more so than what we're given in the final film. In addition, the dirt levitating from Superman's coffin at the end of BvS doesn't make a ton of sense with the theatrical cut of JL. Seems like Whedon deleted all of that out, along with any Knightmare references, which is a shame, and decided to go with a very awkward situation where the League decides to dig up Superman's body and resurrect him themselves. 

Lastly the big bad, Steppenwolf. Well, atleast he's consistent with his comic book counterpart. Underdeveloped, and very one dimensional. I mean, he's ok, but clearly he's there to just get the plot moving along. It's too bad his cameo was cut from the theatrical cut of BvS, since that foreshadowing would have made the whole thing flow in better. Especially for the very casual audience who saw BvS in the theater, but might not have watched the Director's Cut. Overall, I guess Steppenwolf was effective enough in that we understood what he was doing and why were clear. I was kinda surprised how easily Steppenwolf was overpowered by Superman, but once again, JL decidedly wanted to highlight Superman. Even at the expense of the other characters.

On the whole, I know it probably sounds like I hated the film, but I really didn't. There's some good here, if there's a extended cut, I'm not going to lie and act like I wouldn't be interested in seeing that. However, I just wish I didn't leave the theater feeling as if there was a missing film between BvS and this one.

[Travesty]

This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

[The Dark Knight]

This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

That's the danger. WB may be waiting this out, along with Affleck, Cavill, etc. Say they want to come back but the studio pulled the plug and went in another direction. I hope that doesn't happen of course, but it does make you think.

[The Laughing Fish]

This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

That's the danger. WB may be waiting this out, along with Affleck, Cavill, etc. Say they want to come back but the studio pulled the plug and went in another direction. I hope that doesn't happen of course, but it does make you think.

If they scrap the DCEU, I don't think I'll ever watch another DC live action adaptation ever again. Without the likes of Affleck, Cavill and Gadot together, there's no point sticking around. and I'm not interested in seeing another actor donning the cowl for Matt Reeves.

I hope I'm wrong, but if the worst scenario does happen and the DCEU is shelved, the only thing we can do is treat MOS, BvS and JL as a trilogy of sorts. Some fans on Twitter are calling it the Superman trilogy, while others are describing it as the "Dawn of Justice" trilogy. The latter part makes more sense to me.

[The Dark Knight]

Whenever I think about what could've and should've been the anger rises. Battle lines need to be drawn. I stand with Zack Snyder. I stand with directors getting to realize their visions completely without gutless and weak studios butting in. The movie isn't making big money. I'd like the DCEU to continue, but it is what it is.

Honestly, if this means Hollywood burns to the ground I'm okay with that. I'm content with watching old movies that are usually better anyway. Screw them. These appeasers tried to please the critics but only pissed off the current fan base. And listen up - Supes was strong, but that wasn't a character. That was a two dimensional cartoon character with barely any depth. But dudes, he was smiling more! That's all that matters right?!

[The Laughing Fish]

One hack from one of these clickbait sites who took advantage of covering negative stories about the franchise had this to say:

We re-watched BATMAN V SUPERMAN last night and you know what? It's superior to JUSTICE LEAGUE. It just is, and in almost every way

https://twitter.com/JLDlite/status/932337577142624256

Mind you, one of the tweets in that thread above actually linked an article that suggested JL would've been better if Snyder was given full control. Unf***ingbelievable! If this becomes the media's new narrative....

I truly despise the entertainment media. Just as corrupt as the industry itself.

[The Joker]

I can't see WB scraping the DCEU in light of the weak box office returns.

Whatever is going on with Affleck right now is questionable, but deciding to just start over again doesn't make a whole lot of sense if even in a purely business standpoint when you know that WB wants a Wonder Woman 2 WITH Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins in the worst way. In addition, Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn went over extremely well with the public and doing away with any future sequels/spinoffs with her as Harley Quinn would be a hastily foolish decision. Henry Cavill is another I highly doubt WB wants to lose as well.

If anything, the notion of a Justice League 2, and all the money that goes along with producing such a expensive project, is now on a indefinite hold. I really don't see the DCEU going anywhere, but the budgets going forward are likely going to be in a $150-200 million range tops, rather than the $300 million that was afforded to JL.