Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***

[The Dark Knight]

As a result, I've embraced BvS:DOJ, TDK Returns, etc stronger than ever.

This. Once again we seem to be on more or less the same page, old friend.

I thought you'd agree.

Take for example the first scene with Batman that Whedon filmed. Batman swings across and the criminal ends up shooting the water tower. But then it instantly sprouts water like an old Wild West cartoon, or a Wild West roller coaster attraction at a theme park.  Batman is also openly referring to Alfred in front of the criminal. And at the end he lets the criminal go - and if that's not a criminal his behavior here is funked up. I liked Affleck in the scene but when you assess the content it doesn't really stack up. Even the three boxes that appear on the wall after the Parademon explodes doesn't really make much sense to me. It was mainly done to speed up the plot given they trimmed everything down to two hours.

Speaking of Superman, he's barely a character in the movie. He's a weapon for the good guys and a convenient mechanism for cleaning up the mess they made. But he doesn't really have many character moments.

Yep. He's reduced to being a pair of fists. Look, I love a good fight as much as anyone. I liked seeing freeze breath and heat vision. But there's so much more of this character to explore. A juicy plot line of Superman being resurrected was given lip service....literally. Lois asks Clark what is was like to be dead, and he simply says "really weird". And that's it. C'mon. I'm a born again Superman fan and I wanted more than this.

I want Affleck to stay on as Batman. And I want his eventual Batman movie to matter. But the way that it is right now... I dunno. I'm feeling a little deflated here, y'all. We went from Serious Cinema to Silly Marvel seemingly overnight. I don't think this will be a change for the better.

I know what you mean. I think WB will ignore the Snyder cut (even if it exists) because they overrode that once they committed to the reshoots. The best we can hope for is an extended version of what we already received, with maybe the Superman hologram sequence, Superman visiting Alfred, etc reinstated. But I won't hold my breath. But right now?



I can't help but think Snyder had a subliminal message with the homeless man's 'I tried' sign.

[The Laughing Fish]

Take for example the first scene with Batman that Whedon filmed. Batman swings across and the criminal ends up shooting the water tower. But then it instantly sprouts water like an old Wild West cartoon, or a Wild West roller coaster attraction at a theme park.  Batman is also openly referring to Alfred in front of the criminal. And at the end he lets the criminal go - and if that's not a criminal his behavior here is funked up. I liked Affleck in the scene but when you assess the content it doesn't really stack up. Even the three boxes that appear on the wall after the Parademon explodes doesn't really make much sense to me. It was mainly done to speed up the plot given they trimmed everything down to two hours.

As I said before, I enjoyed the film what it is despite my complaints i.e. scenes that didn't get featured in the final cut, and this particular scene was definitely odd. Batman and the thief are suddenly out of character as soon as they see the Parademon. Seriously, if anybody had arrived late in the theater to watch this movie, and only saw this part where the Parademon combusts, I would've forgiven them for assuming the thief was an innocent bystander.

I suppose the rationale behind this was to emphasise how Batman remembers there is a much greater threat to the world than petty crime, but I think that's a lazy argument. There's no excuse why he'd let the man go free, right after he tried to shoot Batman. It was a bizarre WTF moment and kinda reminded me in BB when Batman blew up a hole in the prison wall to escape from Arkham - in front of two convicts, which would've allowed them to escape too.

By the way, since Joss Whedon directed that opening scene in JL, he had tried to make it more comedic, according to the actor who played the thief:



When Zack Snyder departed from the film, I was under the impression that Joss Whedon would take over to finish what Snyder started but still retain the spirit of what he had in mind. Looking back, I've must've been naive or misunderstood something, because looking at how there are too many 'Whedonisms' in this movie, I can't help but suspect there's more to what WB are letting on. If this JL is another Superman II situation, and much different to what Snyder had envisioned, I'd rather WB have the integrity to give the director's credit to Joss Whedon.

As for Superman? Look, I get the complaints that the transition from doubt to confidence is perhaps all sudden, but I for one am happy that he's able to move on past the guilt and become the best he can be. Personally, I see his confidence as a sign of gratitude that he was brought back to life, that nothing he had cared about was ever neglected, and really it shows his transition as a pay off to Batman's newborn leap of faith after his initial misguided hatred and prejudice in BvS. I'm definitely curious to see what Snyder had in mind, but I didn't mind too much with what we got. ***

Nonetheless, what I DO mind, however, are all of the douchebags who complained about Superman being a 'mopey asshole' in the last two films (as one idiot described him on Twitter), but suddenly complain he's too cheesy and light-hearted here. Make up your minds you pathetic degenerates.

***Although, I'm more disappointed that there's no follow-up to how Smallville reacts to Clark's return from the dead, as his reporter persona at the Daily Planet, as the ending implies. Come on! You can keep those plotlines unresolved, FFS!

[GoNerdYourself]

The Batman opening scene isn't a bad scene, but it falls apart at the end. There a couple of issues I have with this scene. The first is the most obvious, Batman leaves the criminal to go free. I really wish the scene ended with him knocking the guy out or cut to him on another rooftop, talking to Alfred with a brief, wide shot of the crook being arrested from Batman's POV. But, considering that probably wasn't filmed, I kinda wish it cut away before he left the roof, leaving us with the assumption that he ultimately dealt with the crook.

My second problem with it is it's in the wrong place narratively as it's sandwiched between two Superman-centric scenes. Each scene feels like the movie is starting all over again. This also includes the main title sequence, from which the transition from the Batman scene wasn't quite smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the placement of these scenes were shuffled around up quite a bit until the last moment. I think a transition from the flashback into the main title sequence (or without that Superman scene altogether) with the Batman scene coming sometime after would have worked best, perhaps in part because there cutting from the Man of Steel himself directly into his funeral could allow for some poignancy. This is the kind of thing that wouldn't phase a casual movie fan, but it drives me nuts.

[Dagenspear]

Nonetheless, what I DO mind, however, are all of the douchebags who complained about Superman being a 'mopey asshole' in the last two films (as one idiot described him on Twitter), but suddenly complain he's too cheesy and light-hearted here. Make up your minds you pathetic degenerates.

The all or nothing mindset here is staggeringly out of touch. A character can be light, fun and not cheesy or too light hearted. And more insulting real people over fiction. But if people dare criticize a movie, hoo boy they're any number of insults. How are they any different in wrong doing than you? Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[The Laughing Fish]

The Batman opening scene isn't a bad scene, but it falls apart at the end. There a couple of issues I have with this scene. The first is the most obvious, Batman leaves the criminal to go free. I really wish the scene ended with him knocking the guy out or cut to him on another rooftop, talking to Alfred with a brief, wide shot of the crook being arrested from Batman's POV. But, considering that probably wasn't filmed, I kinda wish it cut away before he left the roof, leaving us with the assumption that he ultimately dealt with the crook.

My second problem with it is it's in the wrong place narratively as it's sandwiched between two Superman-centric scenes. Each scene feels like the movie is starting all over again. This also includes the main title sequence, from which the transition from the Batman scene wasn't quite smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the placement of these scenes were shuffled around up quite a bit until the last moment. I think a transition from the flashback into the main title sequence (or without that Superman scene altogether) with the Batman scene coming sometime after would have worked best, perhaps in part because there cutting from the Man of Steel himself directly into his funeral could allow for some poignancy. This is the kind of thing that wouldn't phase a casual movie fan, but it drives me nuts.

I don't really mind that the film opened with Batman in the beginning. I kinda dig the idea that it opens as if it's your typical Batman movie, but the twist occurs when the Parademon appears out of nowhere. It feels like a prelude more than anything. I guess one might rationalise that Batman's treatment of the thief throughout that scene shows he has become a lot more merciful compared to his conduct in BvS. Although perhaps too merciful.

Then again, the thief's mentioning of Superman does draw a slightly somber reaction from Batman, before setting the mood for the depressing montage in the opening credits.

[GoNerdYourself]

For me, it was about the editing, which was awkward. The scenes don't flow well together and it just starts, restarts, and then starts all over again. Also, that moment didn't really work for me. It kinda felt forced. I just really felt that scene floundered at the end. Plus, it makes more sense to cut from the man himself being asked about the world right to the title sequence, which shows the impact his death on the world. There's something potentially haunting about transitioning from him being alive to his own funeral.

I kinda pick on the opening of the film a lot because this was when my suspicions about the reshoots were confirmed, that they weren't just going to be a tiny nuisance on the film, but a considerable burden. I always kinda thought they would be. Anyone who actually edits knows just how much of an impact "15 to 20%" can make. Considering that pre-existing scenes are re-worked to accommodate the new material, the result can be double that, probably even triple, and it shows, right from the beginning.

Back to the Batman scene. It was originally shot to be comedic, so I wonder if the scene was supposed to end with a humorous moment where Batman dealt with the criminal somehow, maybe using one of his gadgets from a distance? If so, the "gag" may have been cut to force the transition into the titles.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm still not a fan of the scene, but I'll try and argue the case FOR it. Perhaps the sequence was meant to show how the alien threat united humanity against a common foe. In that moment it wasn't one hero and one criminal, but simply two concerned humans. Again, I'm not overly fond of this idea, but that's all I have right now. In an ideal world the reshoots wouldn't have even happened. And Nerd, I get what you mean. The opening segments were very stop start. It didn't feel like a flowing film but instead like seperate scenes joined together.

[The Laughing Fish]

I'm fed up with the doom and gloom, so I'd like to steer this thread towards the positives for a change.

I think Cyborg was definitely one of the best characters with this film. My favourite scene is when he talks to his father at home and how he feels completely alienated because of how inhuman he feels he has become. As Silas says to his son "you're not a monster",  Victor turns around and says "it's funny how you thought I meant me when I meant monster". It captures how Silas played god in trying to save Victor's life, but calls to question at what cost?

Diana's influence in helping Cyborg to come out of hiding, and drawing her own experience to persuade him to do so, can't be ignored too. It shows a wealth of leadership on her part. Even as Cyborg comes around to wanting to keep leaving as he tries to separate the three Mother Boxes, and suddenly builds a camaraderie with Superman in doing so. Those moments gave Cyborg that his life can still be fulfilling.

[thecolorsblend]

I'll agree with that. I don't think I'll ever be completely comfortable with Cyborg as a member of the Justice League. I guess I'm old enough for him to still be "the new guy" even though it's been over ten years now since Smallville began transitioning him from the Titans to the JLA.

Still, Fisher was an unexpected delight. I loved his voice, especially. It had this almost emotionless quality about it. Pretty solid little performance there.

The Cyborg effects were pretty well done too. I knew reflexively that this had to be motion capture. But his body lacked a lot of the clunkiness I associate with mixing live action with CGI. Some pretty solid attention to detail going on there.

One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

But still, one cool thing was Superman dismantling the Justice League singlehandedly. It plays in to the idea that the League needs him a lot more than he needs them. The Flash's shock at Superman's speed and reflexes was definitely one of the high points of the movie for me. Of which there weren't many.

Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

[The Dark Knight]

Still, Fisher was an unexpected delight. I loved his voice, especially. It had this almost emotionless quality about it. Pretty solid little performance there.

I liked him too. I thought he could've been a weak link before seeing the film, but I didn't find that to be the case.

One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

It's true that he doesn't get an action sequence that compares to the BvS warehouse scene.  But I think they struck a fair balance between Batman the ass kicker and Batman the human team member. I like that they didn't back away from the use of guns. He shoots Parademons from the Knightcrawler and the Batmboile. I dig that, especially considering I've been playing Doom lately. I don't care what alien threat exists. If you have BFGs (big funky guns) and you keep the lead pumping, you're gonna make inroads. Without Batman the League wouldn't be what it is. He has the vehicles, the tech and the strategies.

But still, one cool thing was Superman dismantling the Justice League singlehandedly. It plays in to the idea that the League needs him a lot more than he needs them. The Flash's shock at Superman's speed and reflexes was definitely one of the high points of the movie for me. Of which there weren't many.

"Is this guy still bothering you?" sums up Superman's power level here. I wanted something more complex in terms of Superman's resurrection (world reaction, his feelings explored in greater detail etc), but it's nonetheless satisfying to see him overpower Steppenwolf with absolute ease. Superman is a wish fulfilment character and they most definitely depicted that in terms of his abilities.

Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

Indeed. If the deleted scenes didn't exist the criticism wouldn't be *as* strong. Zack Snyder's son summarised the situation perfectly for me. It's not a bad film but it's hard to move beyond the what ifs.