Men are still good

[The Laughing Fish]

Despite all the fuss over how dark BvS is, I thought the ending of the film was optimistic, and it's a shame that a lot of people have overlooked it.

What I liked most about the ending is that it promotes the message that people are still redeemable and overcome whatever faults they have. Superman died, but his sacrifice undeniably had a positive impact. Batman and Wonder Woman started to look for the other metahumans to establish the Justice League. Batman himself expressing regret for distrusting Superman and vowed to honour his legacy (including anonymously paying for Clark's funeral in Smallville), as well as bringing Wonder Woman back to the spotlight after staying low key for so long.

Perry White, after treating Clark a little harshly during his career at the Daily Planet, pays his respects at Clark's funeral. Despite being a little disrespectful to Clark sometimes, I believe Perry had respect for Clark deep down.

And of course there is the people of Metropolis, after being divided over Superman's impact, were fully united in their mourning for Superman in front of a makeshift memorial, where the statue that Doomsday had destroyed during the battle.

Which brings me to realise that Bruce's speech is relevant to the world we live in more than ever. People will have conflicts and destroy each other, but it's there's still hope to improve and overcome our flaws to help one another, to be kind one another and work together to make this world a better place. Bruce understands this more than ever. He rejects hopelessness, cynicism and misguided vengeance, and rejoices hope to defend a world worth fighting for now that Superman is gone.

[Dagenspear]

I can't agree. I think the movie preaches an optimistic message. But it doesn't walk the walk. The conclusion showcases someone who attempted to murder a percieved hero get away scot free and then has that person make a false claim about the nature of man that the movie itself doesn't back up. Superman had to die to be accepted socially. Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man. They unite under massive tragedy. But that's a different discussion on the realism of human emotions, which a movie could get away with. If this had taken the time build Superman as a hero for the people and wanted to have an interesting display of a knock down drag out fight between him and Doomsday in front of the people, so the people could see his struggle in fighting against letting people die, that would've earned that scene, that idea. But instead it opted for the MOS route again in the "Let's just fight!" only Zack decided to avoid causalities this time by moving it to an abandoned area, which is admirable, but much like in MOS, he could have used the collateral damage to develop the story and the character, for MOS it was for Superman and Zod, here it's Superman and the people of Metropolis. It could be so powerful to see the gut wrenching emotion of Superman, tired and beaten, fighting back against Doomsday to save lives. Instead the movie just had him stab Doomsday. And that's not to say that there aren't people would shift perspectives about Superman. But if I'm supposed to think that the whole city loves him now, that's just not flying for me. The movie's darkness isn't a problem. It's about the characters and the story. Wonder Woman showcases larger, more real darkness than BvS pretends to understand. We see innocent civilians dead, families and we see Diana react to it like a person. Is the movie perfect? No. Better than both MOS and BvS? Yes. And it manages a more triumphant conclusion in the face of that. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[The Dark Knight]

Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

[The Laughing Fish]

Nice little rebuttal there, TDK.

An even better example would be real life cases like JFK and Nelson Mandela.

[thecolorsblend]

Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.

[Dagenspear]

Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

A whole society didn't unite under Harvey's death. The legal system used his death, but if anything it created another rift for society.

Nice little rebuttal there, TDK.

An even better example would be real life cases like JFK and Nelson Mandela.

Did a whole society unite and change under their deaths? Because as far as I can tell America is and was still a mess after JFK died. And I don't know the structures of Nelson Mandela. But as far as I know, people who hated them didn't love them because they passed on.

That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.

Not total opposites, just not the same or with the same meaning.

[The Dark Knight]

That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.

Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says "it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did." In TDK, Gordon says "people will lose hope" because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he's "not a hero".

Dent may as well have been Superman in the way they spoke about him.

TDK Rises shows that Gotham established 'Harvey Dent Day' to remember this single person. Nearly a decade later, society was united under his death via an annual holiday. Promotional material called Harvey "a hero to the people of Gotham City". This sentiment transcended the legal system.

It's all there, clear as crystal.

At the Harvey Dent memorial at Wayne Manor they have a photo of the guy, as if he's a God to be worshipped. When they chase Batman with the army of police cars it's all to arrest Dent's killer. The film makes a point about Harvey's legacy and continued admiration. That's why it's meant to be a big deal when Bane later blows the whistle on Dent's legacy outside Blackgate, even though Nolan drops this plot line straight after.

[Dagenspear]

Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says “it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did.” In TDK, Gordon says “people will lose hope” because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he’s “not a hero”.

Dent may as well have been Superman in the way they spoke about him.

All of which is a false belief and all based on Harvey before his death.

TDK Rises shows that Gotham established ‘Harvey Dent Day’ to remember this single person. Nearly a decade later, society was united under his death via an annual holiday. Promotional material called Harvey “a hero to the people of Gotham City”. This sentiment transcended the legal system.

It’s all there, clear as crystal.

Not at all. The mayor was the one promoting this. The hero and Harvey Dent Day was his public statements. Not one all the cops share or even all the people share as some are still longing for Batman. It was very much a legal structure.

At the Harvey Dent memorial at Wayne Manor they have a photo of the guy, as if he’s a God to be worshipped. When they chase Batman with the army of police cars it’s all to arrest Dent’s killer. The film makes a point about Harvey’s legacy and continued admiration. That’s why it’s meant to be a big deal when Bane later blows the whistle on Dent's legacy outside Blackgate, even though Nolan drops this plot line straight after.

The point was the corruption, not Dent's fall. Only that cop was the one who wanted Batman, and was because he wanted to capture Batman so he could get the job as commissioner. Some cops were for him, other were mocking the rookie who shot at Batman and others were in awe of Batman's presence. The city was very much not pro Dent and anti Batman. It wasn't a united society. Of course though, my statement about how it's a different discussion and a movie could get away with it is being ignored. And we're stuck in the boring part of discussion.

[The Laughing Fish]

I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".

[thecolorsblend]

Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.

A whole society didn't unite under Harvey's death. The legal system used his death, but if anything it created another rift for society.

Did a whole society unite and change under their deaths?

Called it!

Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says "it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did." In TDK, Gordon says "people will lose hope" because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he's "not a hero".

But Harvey isn't Superman though. And things that aren't the exact, identical same obviously must be total opposites. Didn't you know?