JRR Tolkien Discussion

[Silver Nemesis]

This is the first thing I've heard about production problems. I wonder if the death of Christopher Tolkien and the resultant change of leadership at the Tolkien estate is in any way connected. Considering the monumental investment Amazon has placed in this project, I can't see them simply abandoning it. Retooling it, maybe. But not outright cancelling it. But we'll just have to wait and see.

I can't say I'd be too gutted if the show did fall through. I think you and I hold similar perspectives on this, colors – the books constitute the canon, and the entertainment industry just isn't capable of capturing one iota of their magic. Aside from Jackson's TLOTR trilogy, pretty much every screen adaptation of Tolkien's books has ranged from mediocre to poor, and none have truly matched the brilliance of the original text. Lately we've seen far too many once-beloved stories ruined through bad sequels and TV shows: Star Wars, Star Trek, The Terminator, etc. I'm all in favour of more people enjoying Tolkien's stories, but the best way to experience them is to simply read the books. And it shouldn't take a $1 billion TV show to make people do that.

If the TV series does proceed, I'll give it a fair chance and hope for the best. It might surprise us. But if it falls through, I won't be losing any sleep over it.

[thecolorsblend]

Yes. Well, there's a sort of inconvenient (by modern standards) aspect to Tolkien's work. I shall try to put it delicately. But, as you probably already know, he intended the Legendarium to stand in for the myths and legends that the Anglos might have developed but for a certain military invasion. He wanted his writings to be a sort of fictional history of (and for) that ethnic group, specifically.

Without putting too fine a point on it, the casting of this show doesn't exactly live up to what Tolkien's intentions were known to have been.

[The Dark Knight]

I haven't been able to stop thinking about the LOTR trilogy all week and how Jackson nailed it.

The mythology, mystery and darkness is so alluring, and as a lover of nature I can easily escape into this world and not come out.

The movies are simply incredible, from Howard Shore - which I now have the complete recording sessions, to the production design. I'm a Matrix trilogy guy but LOTR is side by side. I dig how they're sword and arrow films but are shot so stylistically and with the integration of CGI. The themes of man at risk of annihilation, the spread of mindless hate by savages and those who have little faith and sell out.

The against all odds bravery of it all. Dialogue like "send these foul beasts into the abyss!" Just love it.

We'll always have the original trilogy, but it can't be overstated just how much Star Wokes with Rey and Finn ruined that franchise as a cherished memory. I didn't like the Hobbit as much, but I don't think it's a DisneyWars situation. The franchise at least still ends on the note of ROTK.

The Hobbit is in the trilogy lore's past and you can kinda take it or leave it.

[thecolorsblend]

The Hobbit is in the trilogy lore's past and you can kinda take it or leave it.

I find I'm becoming more protective of The Hobbit as time goes by. It's a more holistic adaptation of the novel than anything. Jackson expanded the story out using some material from the LOTR novel's appendices. The result is that the canvas is much broader than Tolkien himself probably imagined back in the 1930's. Nevertheless, it's expanded based on material primarily supplied by Tolkien's own pen. And for me, that gives the padding that Jackson added into the narrative some legitimacy.

And yes, Howard Shore's work on LOTR and The Hobbit is unparalleled. Together, they're the greatest film scores ever recorded. People can say whatever they want about The Hobbit films but there's no criticizing the music. Shore's film scores are worth the price of admission all by themselves, if you ask me.

[Silver Nemesis]

The mythology, mystery and darkness is so alluring, and as a lover of nature I can easily escape into this world and not come out.

This is one of the reasons why, for me, Tolkien's mythology trumps those of so many other fantasy writers. I've never watched Games of Thrones, but I have read the first few books in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice series, and I would never want to visit the world he created. It's a dark nihilistic quagmire of murder and rape inhabited by an almost entirely unlikeable cast of characters. Tolkien's world contains dark and terrifying places too, not to mention some truly evil villains, but it also has beautiful and tranquil locations and likeable heroes you'd want to befriend in real life. A lot of people would love to live in Tolkien's world, and whenever you read the books, or watch the movies, you get to do precisely that. The immersive nature of his stories transports you to another world, at least for a little while. That's part of what makes The Lord of the Rings so magical.

[Edd Grayson]

I haven't been able to stop thinking about the LOTR trilogy all week and how Jackson nailed it.

The mythology, mystery and darkness is so alluring, and as a lover of nature I can easily escape into this world and not come out.

The movies are simply incredible, from Howard Shore - which I now have the complete recording sessions, to the production design. I'm a Matrix trilogy guy but LOTR is side by side. I dig how they're sword and arrow films but are shot so stylistically and with the integration of CGI. The themes of man at risk of annihilation, the spread of mindless hate by savages and those who have little faith and sell out.

The against all odds bravery of it all. Dialogue like "send these foul beasts into the abyss!" Just love it.

We'll always have the original trilogy, but it can't be overstated just how much Star Wokes with Rey and Finn ruined that franchise as a cherished memory. I didn't like the Hobbit as much, but I don't think it's a DisneyWars situation. The franchise at least still ends on the note of ROTK.

The Hobbit is in the trilogy lore's past and you can kinda take it or leave it.

Yes, indeed. I've watched the three LOTR movies again recently and they're even better than I remembered them. I love the books and I love the world Tolkien created through them, it would not have been easy for anyone to adapt this story to film and as far as I am concerned Peter Jackson really nailed it.  I can't think of other high fantasy movies that could come close. These films are near perfect to me.

I'm also not as big on the Hobbit movies, but they weren't terrible, and as you said, it doesn't affect our enjoyment of the LOTR trilogy. Maybe I'll give the Hobbit movies another go as well.

[johnnygobbs]

Speaking of The Lord of the Rings, I just want to say Rest in Peace to one of my all-time favourite actors, Sir Ian Holm, who died on Friday at the age of 88.

He was superb in so many films, including Alien, Time Bandits, Chariots of Fire, Dreamchild, and The Sweet Hereafter, perhaps his finest performance, but he will be known to many as Bilbo Baggins, one of the most spot-on pieces of casting in film history.  I won't post a gif here, because it gives me the shivers, but the scene where he goes from the placid, sweet and unassuming Bilbo we all love to a snarling and monstrous ring-obsessed junkie, in the blink of a second, has to be one of the biggest fright-jumps in film.

Rest in Peace.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm also not as big on the Hobbit movies, but they weren't terrible, and as you said, it doesn't affect our enjoyment of the LOTR trilogy. Maybe I'll give the Hobbit movies another go as well.

I'm going to. A component I enjoyed was Gandalf's investigation which leads to his encounter with Sauron. I like the atmosphere that has, and the way it serves as a precursor to the events of the trilogy. The Hobbit films do segue in well to LOTR, even if some of the content isn't as good. I'm currently viewing the uneventful portions of the Hobbit films as simply more time to spend in this version of Middle Earth.

[thecolorsblend]

Yes, indeed. I've watched the three LOTR movies again recently and they're even better than I remembered them. I love the books and I love the world Tolkien created through them, it would not have been easy for anyone to adapt this story to film and as far as I am concerned Peter Jackson really nailed it.  I can't think of other high fantasy movies that could come close. These films are near perfect to me.

I'm also not as big on the Hobbit movies, but they weren't terrible, and as you said, it doesn't affect our enjoyment of the LOTR trilogy. Maybe I'll give the Hobbit movies another go as well.

I accidentally skipped my 2020 rewatch of LOTR. So I'm thinking about scheduling it for this coming weekend. LOTR has been on my mind a lot lately so it's possible.

As to The Hobbit trilogy, I've come around a fair amount on them. The most troublesome aspect is the narrative filibustering of prolonged action sequences and mining the LOTR appendices for material.

But as I say, I've come around. And one acknowledgement I have to make is the legitimacy of Jackson doing a more holistic adaptation of The Hobbit, vis a vis adapting the novel itself while also taking some relevant material from the LOTR appendices. I cannot and will not justify the existence of Tauriel. But I can say that it's fair to include material pertinent to the investigation of Dol Guldur, the Ring, Saruman and all that fun stuff.

For better or for worse, Jackson inverted Tolkien's publishing order. Tolkien wrote LOTR as a sequel to The Hobbit. But in film, The Hobbit is now a prequel to LOTR. Maybe that was unavoidable but Jackson evidently wanted to make adapting The Hobbit after first adapting LOTR work in his favor. We can question certain creative choices he made but in the big scheme of things, I'm prepared to say that The Hobbit films are overdue for a reappraisal.

But if The Hobbit films are still found wanting, well, there's always the Maple Films Edit of the trilogy to condense it all down into a more comprehensible narrative.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm doing a re-read of LOTR right now after many years. I'm currently up to Chapter IV. I'm of two minds about the plot decisions of Tolkien and Jackson. Tolkien is the king because he laid it down for all to see. But so far, casting fresh eyes over the pages, I prefer Jackson's beginning to the story.

Tolkien has 17 years pass between Bilbo's party and Frodo's departure, which works fine in the context of a book. Gandalf has suspicions, but largely because what he's told by Saruman about the ring he pushes his concerns away. I can buy that. The time gap also allows Frodo to leave the Shire on his adventure around the same age as Bilbo did all those years ago. Having Frodo sell the house gives more of an explanation as to his departure. I can appreciate those details.

My issue is more about when Gandalf and Frodo KNOW what the ring is. Gandalf doesn't know the Riders are out in the wild. But Gandalf knows The Enemy knows where the ring is, and who has it. That should be enough to get moving, rather than wait around and create a cover story, that arouses suspicion anyway.

So overall I prefer the urgency of the film's opening. Once the bell has been rung it's a big, scary threat coming your way. The starting gun has been fired and it's game on.

The films are long by any standard, and they couldn't have filmed absolutely everything. But I think the translation was done rather well, providing a different but similar slant on the same story. The novel is always there for the truly expanded experience.