Danny Elfman’s Justice League Score

[thecolorsblend]

Yeah. Superman is more of a spiritual guide. He'll keep on his path and hopefully one day people wake up and realize he's right. It's a long term approach. Batman is more about bashing up goons to solve the problems we face in this very moment. Batman is a human being. He's going to get old and die. Superman is going to be around for a very long time, and even if people still don't join his crusade, he'll still be around to guide them. Batman is a haunted, lonely man. But Superman carries that burden as well. And as the years pass, he's carrying that burden more than Batman ever did.

I think of things in terms of the end game. Batman's stated goal (as per Jeph Loeb) is to rid Gotham City of the evil that took his parents' lives. Superman is fighting a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.

Batman will fail in his goal. But Superman doesn't have a goal; he has a philosophy. By definition, the only possible outcome for Superman is victory. Meanwhile, the only possible outcome for Batman (if he sticks to his goal) is defeat.

This may bother some people but I think Superman sees the big picture in ways that Batman is too stunted and traumatized to ever manage.

[The Dark Knight]

I think of things in terms of the end game. Batman's stated goal (as per Jeph Loeb) is to rid Gotham City of the evil that took his parents' lives. Superman is fighting a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.

Batman will fail in his goal. But Superman doesn't have a goal; he has a philosophy. By definition, the only possible outcome for Superman is victory. Meanwhile, the only possible outcome for Batman (if he sticks to his goal) is defeat.

This may bother some people but I think Superman sees the big picture in ways that Batman is too stunted and traumatized to ever manage.

Batman is really only doing what he can given his limitations as a human being. He can go to the gym, bash criminals and repeat this process until the day he retires. He can't change the reality this will be a short term solution to Gotham's crime problem. The day he hangs up the cape and cowl there will still be a gang banger holding up a bank, or a super villain being born with a jolt of electricity mixed with swamp gas from Mars.

Batman only really fails because he has to retire at some point. But even then, he can be a mentor to the next generation. But indeed, it's not him on the front lines. And his solution is simply an extension of what he was doing himself. Helping another vigilante's efforts to stomp criminals. And thus this would have to be passed on to someone else, like The Phantom concept.

My dream ending for Superman is that he doesn't succeed. He simply outlives everyone on Earth, roaming this empty landscape. And eventually, the sun explodes. Superman poetically decides to die in the inferno. I'm sure this was a proposed film at some point...I think it's great. It's not happy or uplifting, but it's really poignant. And I think fitting.

[Silver Nemesis]

A few thoughts on the whole Batman/Superman debate. Two arguments I often hear in favour of Batman being the more interesting character:

1)   Superman is dull because he's too powerful.
2)   Batman is more relatable because he's a real guy, not an alien.

As to the first argument, it's important to remember there are two basic versions of Batman. There's solo Batman: an ordinary human detective that occasionally gets kayoed by run-of-the-mill street thugs.

Then there's Justice League Batman, aka 'Bat-god': an invincible Gary Stu clad in impenetrable plot armour, capable of singlehandedly taking down the entire JLA and dominating characters as powerful as Superman and Darkseid.

If Superman is dull because he's too powerful, then JLA Batman is positively soporific.

As to the second argument – the one about Batman being more relatable – let's look at both characters in terms of wish fulfilment. Batman and Superman are both power fantasies. Batman gets to be the world's greatest athlete and drive lots of cool vehicles and wield lots of wonderful toys, while Superman gets to fly, move superfast and be the strongest man on the planet. I think we can all agree these are both power fantasies.

But here's the thing – Bruce Wayne is also a power fantasy, albeit of a different sort. Bruce Wayne is the billionaire playboy who is a magnet for beautiful women, gets to lie in bed until 3pm every day, has a butler to do all his housework for him, and gets access to all the swankiest parties in Gotham. Clark Kent is an ordinary bloke who has to work for a living and has day-to-day responsibilities relating to family, friends and co-workers. Clark Kent is not a power fantasy. Bruce Wayne is. So which character is more relatable? Unless you're the ghost of Hugh Hefner, the answer should really be Superman. At least that's my take.

[The Dark Knight]

Solid points as usual. Both are cool characters for the reasons you describe. When it comes to being a HERO, I side with Superman for the simple fact he has superpowers. Who doesn't dream of that? It's something that will always captures the imagination of children, and manages to stay with us as adults.

Batman warts and all typically means you'd be an always alert, haunted wolf of a person (ha, which is what I am..whether I like it or not). So a change of pace in that regard would be refreshing. I can just imagine what I'd get up to with super powers.

I absolutely agree with you about the Clark and Bruce comparisons. I've always said that I couldn't live with myself being the strongest man on Earth, and then getting walked all over by others and being told off. I understand that's the contrast in terms of the comics, but I still wouldn't want to live it. I'd take Bruce Wayne's lifestyle hands down.

Basically, I'm interested in power and commanding respect. But indeed, Clark is the Everyman more in touch with his humanity. They're both characters that compliment each other really well.

[Silver Nemesis]

[Azrael]

1:14 in "The Final Battle" 

(what happened to "The Final Confrontation" track title which Elfman always favoured, lol)

[The Dark Knight]

I have mixed feelings about the score.

Danny used the John Williams Superman theme, his own Batman and Hulk themes, and even the Avengers theme. He did use the Zimmer Wonder Woman theme (though I think it lacks power and doesn't compare to the original recording). I think Elfman had too much creative freedom here. He left Spider-Man 3 because Raimi wouldn't allow it, and now we know why.

Now that's out of the way, I can get onto what I like.

While it doesn't come close to his work on B89 or BR, I think the score will serve the film's tone rather well. I don't have a problem with a lighter flourish and when accompanied by the visuals I'm sure it'll be fine. But when compared to the Zimmer MoS score...I can't help but feel underwhelmed.

My favorite track is 'Hero's Theme'. It has a dark undercurrent that keeps a nice balance between grit and optimism. The choral interlude is really nice. All in all, Elfman did a great job with this one. But nothing else on the album really comes close to this track. 'Batman on the Roof' has a kinda nice atmosphere but it doesn't really amount to anything.

At the moment I think it's an okay album, just not amazing.

I find myself listening to the cover version of Come Together more.

[thecolorsblend]

I have mixed feelings about the score.

Same here.

Danny used the John Williams Superman theme, his own Batman and Hulk themes, and even the Avengers theme.

Did my ears deceive me or did we get a bit of Spider-Man in there too? I thought I heard some flavors of that in various tracks.

He left Spider-Man 3 because Raimi wouldn't allow it, and now we know why.

I've heard versions of the story where he quit and others where he was fired. But either way, it comes to the same, I suppose. If what he wanted for Spider-Man 3 was as big a break from what had come before as JL is with MOS and BVS, I can understand why a falling out would've taken place.

I'm pissed. I'll say it. I never heard Zimmer's Superman themes/motifs in Elfman's score. He checked the Williams Superman theme, which is cute, but he didn't really go much beyond a tease of it. And if the album is anything to judge by, he wholesale avoided the Zimmer Superman stuff.

The other weird thing is he didn't do much more with his own Batman theme. The Elfman hero theme is teased, it's hinted at but there's never really a "Descent Into Mystery" moment where that theme propels the track. The theme is instead squeezed in here and there but that's about it. Bad enough that Junkie's theme was abandoned for no reason. But the replacement we get isn't as powerful and propulsive as Junkie's work would've been.

If it sounds like it's the worst of both worlds, it's because it is in fact the worst of both worlds.

While it doesn't come close to his work on B89 or BR

To say the very least

But when compared to the Zimmer MoS score...I can't help but feel underwhelmed.

Same here. I've played the album once and don't feel any great desire to ever play it again.

Maybe this score needs time to grow on me. It was years and years before I really glommed on to what Elfman was up to with the BR score or Thomas Newman's percussive simplicity with the American Beauty score. Some scores are just like that. You need time to really soak it in.

But if I had to stake a claim right now, I wouldn't anticipate this album being a regular fixture in my rotation.

[The Dark Knight]

Did my ears deceive me or did we get a bit of Spider-Man in there too? I thought I heard some flavors of that in various tracks.

Yeah, I spotted that influence too. Thanks for bringing it up - I forgot about it.

I'm pissed. I'll say it. I never heard Zimmer's Superman themes/motifs in Elfman's score. He checked the Williams Superman theme, which is cute, but he didn't really go much beyond a tease of it. And if the album is anything to judge by, he wholesale avoided the Zimmer Superman stuff.

Apparently there is a reference to the Zimmer Superman theme, but Elfman left it off the soundtrack. It's sad when my most anticipated segment of the score doesn't originate from the composer of the film.

Elfman has a lot of goodwill from my end simply because of his work on B89/BR. But lately I've come to realize how much I've warmed to the Zimmer/Junkie XL sound. Compare something like 'Their War Here' to Elfman's 'The Tunnel Fight'. The Zimmer/Junkie XL melody is more defined and engaging from my point of view. I'm compelled to keep listening, whereas I'm not really excited with Elfman's newer stuff. But my main issue? Marvel has a hodgepodge musical landscape. Elfman brought that problem over to the DCEU when he didn't need to.

The other weird thing is he didn't do much more with his own Batman theme. The Elfman hero theme is teased, it's hinted at but there's never really a "Descent Into Mystery" moment where that theme propels the track. The theme is instead squeezed in here and there but that's about it. Bad enough that Junkie's theme was abandoned for no reason. But the replacement we get isn't as powerful and propulsive as Junkie's work would've been.

I know what you mean. Elfman said this in an interview:

"There was a moment where the Batmobile shoots out of a thing and he goes, 'Go batsh*t crazy here! Batman the sh*t out of it!' When I'm using the Batman theme, I'm using the melodic sense of it, I'm wasn't doing full-on Batman, and there's a moment when he says, 'No, right here, Full on!'"

I'm assuming that moment is what we hear in the soundtrack. If that's 'full on' Batman, it lacks power.

As said, I'm sure the score will be okay against the visuals. But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

[thecolorsblend]

As said, I'm sure the score will be okay against the visuals. But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

Aye, and there's the rub. It's hard to think back to it now but after B89 came out... well, BR (as a score) wasn't necessarily where anybody thought Elfman would go. And indeed he doesn't make the most obvious and most intuitive choices with that score. He devised an elegant and tragic theme for the Penguin, he gave Catwoman a motif of meowing strings and the Batman hero theme has been augmented with a chorale arrangement.

It's an elegant and beautiful score... but, again, not what anybody would've expected after B89.

As you say, he's lost it. Whatever IT is, it's gone.