Danny Elfman’s Justice League Score

[The Dark Knight]

@ THE BAT-MAN
Yeah, whatever man. I'm not responding to you or anybody else about this anymore. You know how I feel, and I know how you feel. It's just going to go around in circles. Nobody is going to have minds changed here.

[THE BAT-MAN]

Batman doesn't need a new theme.  He already has a iconic one and the same could be said for Superman.  but no, all you can see is that those themes belong in a separate Universe such as the Burtonverse or the Donnerverse.  You don't seem to realize that not all of us look at it that way.  Elfman's Theme is BATMAN in it's purest form.  Sure it's easy to associate it with Tim Burton or Michael Keaton.  but honestly it belongs to the character despite the era or the universe it takes place in,  the director's vision, or actor portraying him.  It's still BATMAN and the same goes for John Williams Superman.

I think you're missing it. These characters are myth. Myth survives when it grows and adapts. Arguably this is most true of Batman but even other characters have changed fairly substantially since their introduction.

Assigning them a certain piece of music as their "definitive" theme effectively encases them in amber and robs them of their essential evolution. As it happens, I'm a Superman guy first and foremost. I'm a lifelong student of the character. He's my GUY.

And I can tell you with authority that the Williams theme is soaring, powerful, driving, iconic and not definitive. It doesn't gel with the animated series, Lois & Clark, most iterations of the comics, the Snyder films, etc. I love the entire Williams score but it should be treated as just one entry in Superman's history.

Same with Batman. So many talented artists have created some really amazing themes for Batman and it would be a crying shame if any of them are discarded simply because some guy nearly 30 years ago composed a theme (admittedly a very solid one) for the character.

I remember people picking on Zimmer a bit for turning the Batman elements of the BVS score over to Junkie XL. But he did that precisely to avoid doing what Elfman is doing. It's kind of funny when you think of it that way.

Despite what you may think or believe.  You sir, are not an authority when it comes to John Williams music or all things Superman.  Are you a composer? do you have enough creative imagination to write a full film score? Can you adapt themes and motifs that already exist?  I am a composer and I'm very good at adapting themes and I can tell you Superman's theme would work fine in any screen adaptation provided that you score and orchestrate it appropriately.  The same is applied with Batman and Elfman is proving that right now.

[Azrael]

No matter what, I still got chills when the theme was heard in Batman's entrance.

Elfman's score is probably the most associated with Batman in the eyes of a whole new generation of young Batman film fans thanks to the Lego Batman games.

Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

[GoNerdYourself]

Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

Reading the comments section on YouTube is always an efficient way to feel miserable. 

[thecolorsblend]

Despite what you may think or believe.  You sir, are not an authority when it comes to John Williams music

I never claimed otherwise.

or all things Superman.

"All things"? That's a comprehensive statement which I'm not prepared to claim for myself.

I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

In my opinion, that makes me uniquely qualified to say that for as wonderful as the Williams material is, it's not "definitive" (if we define that word to mean "universally applicable"). It isn't appropriate for the tone and style of every single Superman comic or cartoon or TV show or even film that's ever been made. It perfectly encapsulates a particular iteration and interpretation of the character. But my point is and has been that Donner's style isn't the only way to skin that particular cat.

Are you a composer? do you have enough creative imagination to write a full film score? Can you adapt themes and motifs that already exist?

My ability or inability to do that really isn't the point. The point is as I've said above. I love Williams's work on Superman but the character has a lot more potential than just that one approach.

I am a composer and I'm very good at adapting themes and I can tell you Superman's theme would work fine in any screen adaptation provided that you score and orchestrate it appropriately.

If I've got this right, you're saying that if you switch the tone of Williams's main hero theme, it can work for any version of Superman.

In effect, you're agreeing with me.

The same is applied with Batman and Elfman is proving that right now.

He's adapting his Batman theme to work with the new film. And when it comes to Batman, I've said that he's had several different hero themes over the years. He's always been more dynamic than most other characters so that shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody.  I rather enjoy what Elfman, Goldenthal, Zimmer, Drake and others have brought to the table. BVS gave us Junkie XL's Wagnerian Batman theme and I still see no reason to jettison that just because muh Danny Elfman is doing the score again.

Whatever. What's done is done and this is the direction things are going. This too shall pass. History teaches us that much. If one doesn't enjoy the direction of Batman film scores currently, eh. Just wait a while. Change is never far away when it comes to Batman. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Paul (ral)]

No matter what, I still got chills when the theme was heard in Batman's entrance.

Elfman's score is probably the most associated with Batman in the eyes of a whole new generation of young Batman film fans thanks to the Lego Batman games.

Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

My kid was going through my CDs and put on 89's score - "Hey it's Lego Batman!!"

[The Dark Knight]

I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

I'm still on training wheels compared to true Superman scholars like colors. But my attitudes changed markedly in recent years. Honestly, I only viewed Superman as someone Batman used to beat up every so often. But I see that mindset as trash now, even though I'm on team Batman if push comes to shove. The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

Seriously, Batman is just as invulnerable as Superman most of the time in terms of taking down foes with ease and sustaining limited damage. The idea Superman isn't a cool character is trash. Being a walking cheat code (super strength, X-ray vision, super hearing, freeze breathe, flight) isn't cool? If that's not cool, nothing is. Batman is undeniably cool/badass, but would anybody really want to be him, warts and all? Superman is more of a wish fulfilment character. What a mortal dreams of being but can't, so they hit the gym instead.

The idea that Superman doesn't have decent foes is trash. Lex is amazing. Brainiac is amazing. Darkseid is amazing. Bizarre is amazing, and tragic as well. Doomsday is a mindless brute but he's perfect for destructive battles. Zod is a good character. Parasite is a decent villain because the concept is simple but effective, same goes for Metallo. I enjoyed Toyman on STAS. There's enough villainy there for me to be satisifed.

Going into JL I'm excited about what Superman's role will be. There's a lot riding on this, and they know it. I think the character is in a good place right nw, but a video game or something else needs to capitalize on this mood. But in any case, I'm on board with the character and would consider myself a fan...again, even though my knowledge doesn't compete with yours. I'm simply enjoying the character.

[GoNerdYourself]

The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

I have been defending the character for a long time. Whether they say he's "too powerful" or "not edgy enough," I think the real reason those people don't like him is because he doesn't match their glib, "edgy this, edgy that," "I hate Mondays" lifestyle.

Having said that, the character is more than just a one-dimensional "boy scout," as he is sometimes called. Just because he is a symbol of hope doesn't mean he's infallible, and what's so bad about that anyway, being a symbol of hope?

[thecolorsblend]

I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

I'm still on training wheels compared to true Superman scholars like colors. But my attitudes changed markedly in recent years. Honestly, I only viewed Superman as someone Batman used to beat up every so often. But I see that mindset as trash now, even though I'm on team Batman if push comes to shove. The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

Seriously, Batman is just as invulnerable as Superman most of the time in terms of taking down foes with ease and sustaining limited damage. The idea Superman isn't a cool character is trash. Being a walking cheat code (super strength, X-ray vision, super hearing, freeze breathe, flight) isn't cool? If that's not cool, nothing is. Batman is undeniably cool/badass, but would anybody really want to be him, warts and all? Superman is more of a wish fulfilment character. What a mortal dreams of being but can't, so they hit the gym instead.

The idea that Superman doesn't have decent foes is trash. Lex is amazing. Brainiac is amazing. Darkseid is amazing. Bizarre is amazing, and tragic as well. Doomsday is a mindless brute but he's perfect for destructive battles. Zod is a good character. Parasite is a decent villain because the concept is simple but effective, same goes for Metallo. I enjoyed Toyman on STAS. There's enough villainy there for me to be satisifed.

Going into JL I'm excited about what Superman's role will be. There's a lot riding on this, and they know it. I think the character is in a good place right nw, but a video game or something else needs to capitalize on this mood. But in any case, I'm on board with the character and would consider myself a fan...again, even though my knowledge doesn't compete with yours. I'm simply enjoying the character.

I like the wish-fulfillment thing. Superman embodies that in a way that others characters just can't. But I also see the character as equally an aspirational ideal. The "higher man" idea of Superman having basically a superior moral core.

As far as JL goes, I'm kind of ambivalent about Superman's participation in it. I'm happy to have Snyder's MOS and BVS... but, as Superman stories, I didn't NEED them. I have tons of Superman comics, shows and movies to enjoy. More is better but not necessary.

Right now, this very moment, I'm more concerned with Batman. I want the Batman of the late 80's and early 90's, that era, to be adapted into film. That's MY Batman. Jason Todd is dead, he is remembered as Bruce's greatest mistake, Gordon is struggling to make it work with Essen, Dick is making his bones as Nightwing, that's the type of thing I want in movies now.

Not to sound too ranty but I'm done with the movies side-stepping those issues, characters and conflicts. I want to see them explored in live action for once.

[The Dark Knight]

Having said that, the character is more than just a one-dimensional "boy scout," as he is sometimes called. Just because he is a symbol of hope doesn't mean he's infallible, and what's so bad about that anyway, being a symbol of hope?

Yep. There is a dorky goodness about the character that I think should be present in some form - which is brilliantly demonstrated in JL: Action. But all that aside, Superman is a far more interesting character than he's ever given credit for. Four things that stick out to me:

He has huge responsibilities and the weight of expectation.
He knows he can't save everyone or be everywhere where he's needed.
He could very easily be a dictator but he chooses not to be.
He knows he's going to outlive all his friends and family.

I like the wish-fulfillment thing. Superman embodies that in a way that others characters just can't. But I also see the character as equally an aspirational ideal. The "higher man" idea of Superman having basically a superior moral core.

Yeah. Superman is more of a spiritual guide. He'll keep on his path and hopefully one day people wake up and realize he's right. It's a long term approach. Batman is more about bashing up goons to solve the problems we face in this very moment. Batman is a human being. He's going to get old and die. Superman is going to be around for a very long time, and even if people still don't join his crusade, he'll still be around to guide them. Batman is a haunted, lonely man. But Superman carries that burden as well. And as the years pass, he's carrying that burden more than Batman ever did.