Batgirl (2022)

[thecolorsblend]

The suit looks like an organic continuation of the BR design. On that basis, I can roll with it. Hell, just having the yellow oval back is enough for me.

I might be wrong. But it looks like the torso has an armored top half while the lower half is tailored to allow for greater flexibility in the stomach, lower back and so forth. It's hard to be sure from the quality of these spy pics tho.

Assuming I'm right... it's an odd looking suit, ngl. Still, I'm content to wait to see it onscreen before making too many judgments.

As SN says, ten years ago, NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

[The Dark Knight]

One online source is claiming that this is the same suit Keaton wears in The Flash.

Seems to be an accurate guess. I'm pleased that the cowl appears to be the same from the Burton era, meaning head turning abilities didn't influence this Batman's aesthetics. The FlashBat suit (what I'll call the suit worn by Keaton in flashbacks before he seemingly retires in events depicted in The Flash) makes the actor seem much larger than they would be in real life, which further benefits someone like Keaton who doesn't have the largest frame. I haven't been the biggest fan of the B89 comic series, but I'm also hoping to see the Batcycle, or some other expanded universe addition to make an appearance. I wouldn't rule it out, especially when toys are to be sold.

[The Laughing Fish]

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning as a retconned version of the character. Yet here we are. I'm very disappointed.

It has dawned on me that the studio has squandered a glorious opportunity to expand the Burtonverse and chose this nonsense instead. I'd be far more excited if this was Burton Batman 3 or Batman Beyond than this bastardised merged timeline they're doing. I have a hard time believing any Burton fan is really happy with the idea of Keaton's timeline is getting retconned. This would be like if Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield were playing completely different Spider-Men and inherited supporting characters from Tom Holland's world. Same thing goes if Chris Reeve were still alive and he played another Superman that had little to nothing in common with Donner's world.

This reeks of arrogance on the studio executives' part, as Keaton plays any version of Batman, continuity be damned. They might as well have completely recast and reboot the whole Batgirl movie as its own entity if this is what they were going to do. The sooner the Discovery merger kicks those obtuse and crap executives out, the better.

As for the new Batsuit? Judging by the pictures, they look like a cheap replica of the BR costume. Too leathery, only the cowl stands out. At least it's better than that reboot suit...enough said.

I'm very eager to know Burton's reaction to Keaton's involvement in Flash and Batgirl. We still haven't heard from him, it's been nearly two years since Keaton's comeback was announced. The longer he stays silent, the longer I get an impression he's not impressed with the world he created is getting retconned.

[DocLathropBrown]

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning as a retconned version of the character. Yet here we are. I'm very disappointed.

It has dawned on me that the studio has squandered a glorious opportunity to expand the Burtonverse and chose this nonsense instead. I'd be far more excited if this was Burton Batman 3 or Batman Beyond than this bastardised merged timeline they're doing. I have a hard time believing any Burton fan is really happy with the idea of Keaton's timeline is getting retconned. This would be like if Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield were playing completely different Spider-Men and inherited supporting characters from Tom Holland's world. Same thing goes if Chris Reeve were still alive and he played another Superman that had little to nothing in common with Donner's world.

This reeks of arrogance on the studio executives' part, as Keaton plays any version of Batman, continuity be damned. They might as well have completely recast and reboot the whole Batgirl movie as its own entity if this is what they were going to do. The sooner the Discovery merger kicks those obtuse and crap executives out, the better.

As for the new Batsuit? Judging by the pictures, they look like a cheap replica of the BR costume. Too leathery, only the cowl stands out. At least it's better than that reboot suit...enough said.

I'm very eager to know Burton's reaction to Keaton's involvement in Flash and Batgirl. We still haven't heard from him, it's been nearly two years since Keaton's comeback was announced. The longer he stays silent, the longer I get an impression he's not impressed with the world he created is getting retconned.

Dude, not to pick a fight but... don't you get tired of being an iconoclast? Like, I'm sorry that Snyder's movies ended for you, but WB did what any business does--they chase the money. If they're paying for the movies, they have a right to seek a return on their investment. Snyder was the wrong person to ever hand the keys to--he reinvented the characters to suit his vision, and in a lot of ways, his vision for DC was wrong. By his own admission, he finds traditional superhero stories childish and he thinks he "grew up" Superman, which is basically calling all of us who like the comic book childish.

I'm excited to see Keaton return, and I don't care if we're getting a new timeline. The idea that they'd bring him back and have him be completely unrelated to the Batman he played is foolish--some of his history is obviously going to be in there. Times change--I love '89 and BR, but there were things that could have been better. Gordon, for one thing. I give the movies a break because of the context of when they were made, so I don't hold killer Batman or nonexistent Gordon against them, but it's nice to see those situations rectified.

I, for one, don't care about Burton's involvement. Not only has he become a worse filmmaker, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near modern comic book films. I've become disenfranchised with his weak approach to storytelling, and modern comic book movies that are part of a larger continuity are no place for a weak storyteller. Keaton was never hardline about having to have Tim involved, as he really did try to work with Schumacher on BF.

As Silver Nemesis pointed out from the receipts he brought, Keaton is energized about returning to the character. He isn't "secretly ashamed." I know from reading your posts that you're one of the Snyder fans who wants to see everything that's happened as some kind of conspiracy or tremendous injustice, but it isn't. Yes, Joss Whedon was a bastard during the JL reshoots. However, his version of the movie was better. WB going in a different direction is not moustache-twirling villainy--it's a company doing what IT wants with ITS money, trying to be successful, not pump out movies that become a sad joke (must we rehash the Martha mistake?). It isn't a new thing--they did it with Tim back after Batman Returns.

I've resisted posting here again because I didn't want to dodge your excessive negativity, but I've decided to stop running from it. I think you may need to move on from Snyder... or at the very least, just learn to keep your negativity to yourself. People don't often agree with/respond to your posts here. That might be a sign of fanaticism.

[The Laughing Fish]

Dude, not to pick a fight but... don't you get tired of being an iconoclast?

You say you're not trying to pick a fight, but then you sum it all up by telling me to "keep my negativity to myself" and "people don't often agree with/respond to your posts here" and suggest I suffer from "fanaticism". It definitely sounds like you're picking a fight.

Last time I checked, this is an internet forum. People are going to share their opinions, some will agree and some will disagree. Some will be like-minded and reply, and others will shun each other for saying things they don't like. Or for "being negative", in your mind.

None of this bothers me, because it's the nature of the internet. If you hate reading my comments so much, look for ways on the forum on how to hide me. If you can't do that then maybe internet forums aren't for you.

Like, I'm sorry that Snyder's movies ended for you, but WB did what any business does--they chase the money. If they're paying for the movies, they have a right to seek a return on their investment.

Personal feelings over Snyder aside (I love your snarky tone, btw ), you're acting as if WB didn't burn money with their shoddy JL reshoots and have been totally responsible in their management of the franchise. If WB didn't want to work with Snyder any more, the most responsible thing to do would've stopped all pre-production on JL and parted ways from him. Not spend millions on reshoots that turn out a poor quality product and cause a PR nightmare. That sh*t will go down as one of the worst cases of mismanagement on a film franchise in history.

Snyder was the wrong person to ever hand the keys to--he reinvented the characters to suit his vision, and in a lot of ways, his vision for DC was wrong. By his own admission, he finds traditional superhero stories childish and he thinks he "grew up" Superman, which is basically calling all of us who like the comic book childish.

You say "people don't often agree with my posts" and you say this, yet you ignore the fact that several other people on this forum have an appreciation for MOS, BvS and ZSJL and they would strongly disagree with what you just said. Don't be a gatekeeper.

Directors always say things that comic book fans don't like. Burton once went on record deriding comic book tropes as "stupid" and only read The Killing Joke. And like all comics, things have changed over the years, so this idea of traditional superhero stories is rather subjective. I know that's what Snyder once said, but I'm not too bothered about it.

I'm excited to see Keaton return, and I don't care if we're getting a new timeline. The idea that they'd bring him back and have him be completely unrelated to the Batman he played is foolish--some of his history is obviously going to be in there. Times change--I love '89 and BR, but there were things that could have been better. Gordon, for one thing. I give the movies a break because of the context of when they were made, so I don't hold killer Batman or nonexistent Gordon against them, but it's nice to see those situations rectified.

I, for one, don't care about Burton's involvement. Not only has he become a worse filmmaker, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near modern comic book films. I've become disenfranchised with his weak approach to storytelling, and modern comic book movies that are part of a larger continuity are no place for a weak storyteller. Keaton was never hardline about having to have Tim involved, as he really did try to work with Schumacher on BF.

Burton's films may be a product of their their time and they aren't perfect by any means. But for a guy who says he loves B89 and BR, you're REALLY underselling them. Jesus Christ.

When news broke out over Keaton would be coming back to the role two years ago, everyone in this forum were theorising how Batman might've continued thirty years after BR and thought about how The Flash could've potentially spin off a Batman Beyond project. At the time, the last thing people thought of was the possibility of Keaton getting retconned in a new timeline. I don't think excitement would've been as high if people knew. Surely most fans would've preferred to expand on that universe while keeping the rest of the continuity in tact. I think that would offer much more interesting storytelling, regardless of whether or not Burton has passed his peak. sh*t, you could've had someone else directing it with Burton merely producing, and that would be fine, as long as that world gets expanded, and concluded.

You say it's foolish to think Keaton's new Batman being completely unrelated to the one he once played, really? I think it's foolish to think the likelihood doesn't exist. Do you seriously think the Jack Napier stuff is going to stay in tact? Or the events of BR won't get overhauled, or get outright ignored? Keaton can say whatever he likes because he has a job to do, but I think all this does is risk alienating lots of fans if you stray too far from the original movies. Why bother bringing him back at all if you go such lengths to change him? You do that, the nostalgia factor is gone.

At that point, you'd be better off recasting altogether.

He isn't "secretly ashamed."

Interesting choice of words, I don't remember suggesting Keaton was secretly ashamed of doing anything in this thread.

I know from reading your posts that you're one of the Snyder fans who wants to see everything that's happened as some kind of conspiracy or tremendous injustice, but it isn't.

Yeah, there was no injustice happening when Toby Emmerich and co took advantage of a family tragedy to lie to the entire world and say the Whedon reshoots were minimal. And how he promised those reshoots were going to keep Snyder's work in tact.

Ray Fisher speaking out on Whedon's abuse and discrimination behind the scenes, and how the studio enabled and covered it all up was really nothing unjust either.

Nor was the studio giving Snyder a hard time while he was trying to finish his cut and prohibited him from using Green Lantern, even though he considered quitting the project at one point.

Not to mention studio execs calling ZSJL a "cul de sac" a few months prior to the movie coming out while suspiciously taking such a long time to prepare the international roll-out for the film on various streaming services, before it came out only a few weeks later. Trolling fans online with Josstice L 4K remaster a month or so after ZSJL came out and refusing to release the Ayer cut much to David Ayer's dismay. Yeah, that's no big deal.

Not to mention, the same studio (and Whedon) dismissed Fisher's accusations by accusing Snyder of manipulating him as a way to take back control of the DC film franchise.

Yeah, nothing wrong with any of that at all, eh?

To ignore all of this as some sort of wishful "conspiracy" on the fans' part is not only disingenuous, it's downright disgusting. Take WB's boot out of your tongue.

Yes, Joss Whedon was a bastard during the JL reshoots. However, his version of the movie was better.

LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says Whedon's hackjob mess was a better movie than ZSJL. Get the hell out of here.

Even the vast majority of Snyder's detractors agreed that ZSJL was the superior cut of Justice League. Had that movie came out in 2017 like it was supposed to, we'd be having a very different conversation right now.

WB going in a different direction is not moustache-twirling villainy--it's a company doing what IT wants with ITS money, trying to be successful, not pump out movies that become a sad joke (must we rehash the Martha mistake?).

Right, because Josstice L wasn't an even bigger and sadder joke. Give me a goddamn break. Stuff like Superman's moustache, Flash falling on top of Wonder Woman and Whedon's stupid and stale sense of humour was mocked for years. Even during the earlier days after that movie came out and I was trying to be indifferent about it, it was hard for me to ignore the travesty of it all. That sh*t was far more embarrassing than petty Martha jokes. There was a reason more people began to demand for the Snyder cut to come out, because the changes Whedon made were so terrible and people realised Snyder's work on that movie was far more complete with consistent continuity, world-building and coherent character arcs.

As for making money and trying to be successful? At the time of writing, the DC movies' box office haven't done any better than Snyder's stuff with the exception of Aquaman and the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie (which the studio missed out half of the gross revenue because they sold them off to other parties before the movie came out). Maybe Shazam did okay, albeit marginal. Clearly making money is a huge issue at Warner, which is why they're in the middle of another merger for the second time in four or so years. So don't lecture me about the studio's right to do whatever they want with its IP. The PR debacles aren't even restricted to DC, look at the mess they made over HBO Max's same day agenda.

It isn't a new thing--they did it with Tim back after Batman Returns.

You're being very intellectually dishonest to compare the circumstances surrounding Burton and Snyder's departures. Don't even try. Burton didn't have to leave his project behind to grieve the loss of a family member, only for the studio to hack it up. If we had a Burton cut situation when Tim was at his peak, I guarantee you'd be a lot more sympathetic.

DocLathropBrown, you've said a lot of ridiculous rubbish in your post. I can look past the difference of opinion over Keaton's return, but clearly you have a strong anti-Snyder bias and you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge the studio's handling of things have been at the very least shady. Rather than trying to challenge my "negativity" and my "fanaticism" and try to dictate what people should say on an internet forum as if your the site's administrator - because God Forbid I don't have any faith in the current regime at WB - maybe you're the one who should keep your comments to yourself. If you're going to continue to dismiss my comments and overlook the studio's problems, then don't waste my time. I have no desire to communicate to intellectually dishonest people.

[DocLathropBrown]

Ultimately, I guess it wasn't wise for me to say what I did. Snyderites are the newest iteration of how irritating and unrelenting Nolanites were 15 years ago--refusing to stop cramming their opinions into everyone's face. I should have known that you wouldn't show an ounce of thought about maybe if you've been too overbearing about your POV.

I've been lurking on the forum off and on since I was a last regular poster, and I've seen how Snyder cultism/elitism is almost all you post, and while I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Snyder's films more than I do (the only one I totally hate is BvS), you're by far the loudest voice about it here. I've seen relatively few instances of people joining into that exact discussion with you. Normally it looks like you're yelling out into a void. It's frankly tiring to see somebody who doesn't know when to quit or move on--enjoying Snyder's work is one thing, but knowing when to give up the ghost should be another. There's more to DC comics adaptations that the work of one man who could have done a much better job, and it's hard to share joy with others when somebody won't stop coming in and being a Debbie downer.

Trust me, I looked for an ignore option, but there didn't seem to be one. But don't worry, you win. I have better things to do with my time than to constantly go back and forth with a broken record acting out a cult-like obsession with past events. There's so much more to think about, or talk about. Even if I hadn't had an edge of hostility to begin with (As a DC fan, it's hard not to be tired of all the Snyder BS anymore), I can tell you'd have been hostile anyway, since all the Snyder cultists are.

I won't return. Do a victory dance, TLF. You bullied your way to victory. The cult must be proud.

Edit: Several helpful members who agreed with me showed me how the ignore feature works here, so I'm good to go--er, stay! 

[thecolorsblend]

Get the hell out of here.

This is the exact thing I didn't want.

I won't return.

Ibid. I mean, do what you want. It's a free country. But this isn't what I would want.

[The Laughing Fish]

I won't return. Do a victory dance, TLF. You bullied your way to victory. The cult must be proud.

Oh I see, playing victim all of the sudden to talk about how bad the "Snyder cult" is and what a "bully" I am, when you were the one who came after me instead of just ignoring me. You just had to go make an ostentatious statement to twist things, didn't you? Thanks for proving my point in how dishonest you are.

My original comment had nothing to do with you. I was replying to thecolorsblend, not you. You decided to reply to my comment with snark and disingenuous nonsense while pretending you weren't trying to pick a fight and I replied back, so you don't get to tell me I "bullied my way to victory". What an idiotic, childish statement. This isn't a war, nor did anyone win or lose. "Do a victory dance" - what the hell is wrong with you?

It's clear you have it out for me, but again, you could've just simply ignored me and keep posting on the forum instead of writing all of this drivel. But oh no, you have to be a gaslighting troll. You're pitiful.

As for this other drivel over "yelling into the void" and overbearing I sound, well, whoever thought sharing news or making observations during current affairs affecting all things ZSJL, Ayer cut or whatever was such a bad thing. You call me a Snyder elitist, well what you're saying sounds pretty elitist to me. I don't care if people respond or not, I post stuff I think is worth sharing. Jesus, it's not that hard to understand.

Yeah, I enjoy Snyder's work, but believe it or not, I don't think the movies are flawless. Nor have I ever suggested the man is the be-all and end-all of DC. I'd only like to see his story arc continue to see its conclusion, and if that somehow sounds elitist and a crime then so be it. So far, Snyder has been leaving behind cryptic messages online urging the fans to keep going for the planned sequels. But if he were to come in tomorrow and say everybody needs let it go - fine - so be it. However, I'm not going to suddenly move on because some petty troll like you says so, nor will I stop talking about the three movies he made, in any case. If you don't like it then perhaps you're the one who needs to move on. And if you refuse to understand the ugly studio politics behind the scenes surrounding all things JL then that says a lot about you then it does about me.

If you really enjoy the idea of Keaton's Batman getting retconned, good for you. I don't, and I'm not going to stop being a "Debbie downer" because it might piss some people off. Grow up.

One more thing: at least "Snyder cultists" never forced Rotten Tomatoes to temporarily shut down comments like Nolan fanatics did when Dark Knight Rises came out; attacking some critics who didn't like the movie despite it got positive reviews overall anyway: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/rotten-tomatoes-dark-knight-rises-351124/

Maybe the so-called "Snyder cult" wouldn't be so overwhelming and irritating in your eyes had the damn studio been more professional. But of course, you won't even acknowledge that. sh*t, I know I crapped on Nolan's Batman movies a lot in the past, but I'd still would've shown sympathy for him if he had a Snyder cut-like situation. You, on the other hand, can't even see the studio doing anything wrong because you hate Snyder's movies and the fandom so much.

For the final time, don't waste my time again, you damn troll.

Get the hell out of here.

This is the exact thing I didn't want.

Don't take my words out of context, colors. Of course people are free to enjoy whatever they want, but I said what I said because he wasn't interested in having a genuine conversation. He didn't even bother to explain why he thought Whedon's cut was better, he just said like it was an objective, universal fact. Sure, I'm not perfect, but I'm not going to allow myself to be talked down to by somebody who was trying to pick a fight despite saying otherwise, and then pulls the victim card when I reply back.

Whatever, I can tell this conversation might be turning into this petty back-and-forth bickering, so I'm going to put it all behind me.

[The Joker]

It does seem likely that the Burton Batman will be retired or semi-retired at the beginning of The Flash, and that the other heroes will have to persuade him to return to active duty.

maybe he screwed up in another way and someone got hurt in the crossfire, similar to how the Earth-Two Batman burnt his batsuit and called it quits after his wife Selina got killed (although he still later returned for one final costumed battle).

Yeah, the possibilities of Keaton's aged Batman having more similarities with the Pre-Crisis Golden Age/Earth-Two Batman is intriguing to think about. As ever since I read the hardcover Batman Archives Vol. 1 waaay back as a teen (in addition to your own "Comic Influences" threads), I tend to hold Keaton's Batman as the most reflective live action incarnation to those early Golden Age Kane/Finger days. As a consequence, Keats' Batman conceivably mirroring the established Earth-Two Batman in some fashion during this current vision of the DCEU seems "right" to me.

Keaton's character in Batgirl will presumably be the new DCEU Batman – the one that will likely be introduced at the end of The Flash – rather than the Burtonverse version. The relationship between the two should be similar to the relationship between the Pre-Crisis Earth-One Batman in the comics and his Post-Crisis New Earth counterpart. Certain things carried over from the Pre-Crisis era into the Post-Crisis canon (e.g. the Ra's al Ghul stories) while other things didn't (the Catwoman stories), and similarly I expect certain things from the Burton continuity will carry over into the new DCEU timeline while still allowing the filmmakers the freedom to alter or retcon other things. For example, the new DCEU Batman might have saved Vicki Vale from the Joker at the Flugelheim Museum, but in this timeline the Joker might still be alive and might not be the killer of Bruce's parents. I'm just theorising, but I think this is how things might pan out.

I know you're only theorizing, and I'm with you on retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on. I can't imagine I am alone in that either, as Keaton returning as Batman after all these years is a pretty strong card, but also comes across as a play that's a little too reliant on just specifically that attraction. Fans of the Burton films, who are undoubtedly going to be the most excited/nostalgic to see Keaton back as Batman, love those films for more than just who played Batman. It was that world, those characters, the colorful villains, that unique interpretation of the lore that left such an impression. Especially for those of us who were there to experience Bat-Mania in 1989.

Personally, I'm pliable enough to roll with some retcons, but let's keep them at a minimum, and a lot less egregious towards the films Keaton himself is spinning off from in the first place. 

However, since Warners is in a very transitional period right now, I fully expect some, shall we say, reorganization to happen post-Discovery merger, and not just with the current DC Films brass, but also in film plans/releases as well. If prior mergers of this scale is any indication.

I'm surprised they haven't released an official image of him in the suit yet. Normally the studio would try to do that before set pics leaked. Perhaps there's a new trailer imminent that will include an official reveal?

Agreed.

Straight from the Gotham Globe, a look at (young) Keaton's new suit...

I'm fine with this. Looks alright to me. We all have a pretty cemented picture in our heads of what Keaton's Batman looks like, and this doesn't stray far enough away from the 89/92 aesthetic that it becomes rather jarring by contrast.

[Gotham Knight]

I've been staring at the cowl, and it occurred that the cowl and the scallops are separate pieces. The cowl and the emblem are under the armored scallops. I think Batman can turn his head.