What are your issues with the DCEU Superman?

[Dagenspear]

"Stay down! If I wanted it, you'd be dead already."

Sounds pretty definitive to me.

Too bad throwing him through a building came first.

Not sure if I'm parsing this correctly or not. But Superman did try reasoning with Batman. He called him "Bruce", he admitted he'd been wrong and tried to explain Lex's scam. But Batman was having none of it. So he wasn't "unwilling" to tell Batman what's going on. Batman simply refused to listen to him.

He was unwilling because Batman couldn't hurt him and Superman didn't say anything anyway. Him calling him by name and telliing him he doesn't understand isn't reasoning with him. Telling him what's actually happening is. To anyone with no information you're just saying things that have no meaning.

That's the point. There was controversy over Superman but it wasn't a matter of widespread consensus that Superman is dangerous. Some people thought so, others didn't.

Lex saw the blood on Superman's hands and wanted the rest of the world to see it too. So maybe Superman killing Batman would do the job.

By Lex's own words Superman going to kill Batman was an admission of his dirtiness, but by this same logic him killing Zod is the admission too, so he's already admitted it. Lex's plan means nothing. Superman killing an insane murderous vigilante who even the people he saves are afraid whose been absent for years apparently and only just recently restarted wouldn't mean much of anything to anyone.

If you mean going after Batman as Clark Kent, that's legit news. And, from Clark's standpoint, a serious cause for concern.

Clark's standpoint of going after a guy who brands people who get shanked and is scary to people is ridiculously silly and nonsensical. Why is Batman more important than every warlord, terrorist, crime boss in the world? It's nonsense to put the vigilante loon as top priority from either side. Why isn't Superman going after the guys who were in charge of trafficking those people, instead of the person who beat up the lackeys of those that were trafficking those people.

And he told the truth. He didn't kill them. Lex's minions did that.

I know. I wasn't saying that he was. I'm saying that he justifies his actions as saying that it's cool because he didn't kill them. I agree with him there, but it's still a justification. Have avery great day!

God bless you all!

[thecolorsblend]

Too bad throwing him through a building came first.

I agree, Superman knew he'd survive. You're totally right about that.

He was unwilling because Batman couldn't hurt him

The sonar attack didn't look like it tickled.

Superman didn't say anything anyway.

When the other guy demonstrates his refusal to listen, what more was Superman supposed to do? Looks to me like Superman thought he needed to kick Batman's @$$ a little and then maybe they could both start being reasonable.

By the by, I love how you're ignoring Superman's conversation with Lois prior to his showdown with Batman where he voices aloud the need to recruit Batman to rescue Martha.

Him calling him by name and telliing him he doesn't understand isn't reasoning with him.

It's the start of it. And if Batman had let Superman get a word in edgewise, more would have followed.

Superman killing an insane murderous vigilante who even the people he saves are afraid whose been absent for years apparently and only just recently restarted wouldn't mean much of anything to anyone.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Clark's standpoint of going after a guy who brands people who get shanked and is scary to people is ridiculously silly and nonsensical.

Bernie Goetz is a controversial figure even to this day. Certainly a lot of ink was spilled about him at the time that he did what he did. It's not too much of a stretch to see a journalistic angle here considering the real world counterparts to this sort of thing.

Why is Batman more important than every warlord, terrorist, crime boss in the world?

How many of those unofficially operate under the imprimatur of their local police and law enforcement?

Of those, how many are literally across the bay from Metropolis?

Whether you like it or not, stories about Batman are a completely valid thing for Clark to advocate with Perry.

Why isn't Superman going after the guys who were in charge of trafficking those people, instead of the person who beat up the lackeys of those that were trafficking those people.

Not sure what you're referring to here.

I'm saying that he justifies his actions as saying that it's cool because he didn't kill them. I agree with him there, but it's still a justification.

Were laws broken? Was anybody killed? Was United States foreign policy somehow compromised or hindered? Did the terrorist kill Lois?

Looks to me like the answers are all "no". So I'm not sure I see the problem there.

[Dagenspear]

I agree, Superman knew he'd survive. You're totally right about that.

He didn't. He couldn't.

The sonar attack didn't look like it tickled.

It didn't incapicate him or keep him from speaking, so he has no excuse is my point.

When the other guy demonstrates his refusal to listen, what more was Superman supposed to do? Looks to me like Superman thought he needed to kick Batman's @$$ a little and then maybe they could both start being reasonable.

By the by, I love how you're ignoring Superman's conversation with Lois prior to his showdown with Batman where he voices aloud the need to recruit Batman to rescue Martha.

Hold Batman down and tell him that Lex Luthor kidnapped his mom and is forcing him to kill him.

If he was intent on saving his mom, then kicking Batman around would be the absolute last thing he would do.

I'd believe that if his entire attitude towards the situation didn't contradict that. Even when Batman's down, after being thrown through the building, Superman still doesn't say anything about what's really happening. Fighting Batman runs contrary to his goals, unless he'd decided to not even try convincing him and just do what Lex wanted.

It's the start of it. And if Batman had let Superman get a word in edgewise, more would have followed.

Batman doesn't have to let him. It's Superman. He can just hold him down and tell him, if he wanted to. But even when Batman's down, after being thrown through the building, Superman still doesn't say anything about what's really happening.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Nobody would care that Superman killed Batman.

Bernie Goetz is a controversial figure even to this day. Certainly a lot of ink was spilled about him at the time that he did what he did. It's not too much of a stretch to see a journalistic angle here considering the real world counterparts to this sort of thing.

The journalistic angle isn't what I'm talking about.

How many of those unofficially operate under the imprimatur of their local police and law enforcement?

Of those, how many are literally across the bay from Metropolis?

Whether you like it or not, stories about Batman are a completely valid thing for Clark to advocate with Perry.

This doesn't justify Superman getting involved with him over real bad guys that are a threat to innocent.

Not sure what you're referring to here.

The guy that Batman branded who was part of that human trafficking ring.

Were laws broken? Was anybody killed? Was United States foreign policy somehow compromised or hindered? Did the terrorist kill Lois?

Looks to me like the answers are all "no". So I'm not sure I see the problem there.

Laws being broken aren't the point. Superman justifying his actions are.

[The Laughing Fish]

I saw this nice collage that somebody on Twitter compiled to illustrate examples how Superman touched people's lives, and connect them to a line spoken by Batman in the latest Justice League trailer.



Source: https://twitter.com/TheoB0rg/status/892457373260017664

One can state the execution hasn't always been the best, but it's foolish to say Snyder's Superman hasn't made a positive influence to the world in the DCEU.

[The Dark Knight]

Before Cavill, I had basically lost any Superman fandom I once had. I've always been a Batman guy. Always.

I watched the Reeve films about once and that was it. I watched the Cain show, and that really connected with me in a big way. Same with Smallville for a while, but that passion died away in time. I liked S:TAS quite a bit, but again....I was all about Batman. And I still am. He's my favorite character of all time. Superman wasn't unique in that every other character came second. But honestly, it was Man of Steel that woke me up.

I tried to get involved with the character way back in 2006. I liked Superman Returns at the time. But as time progressed and that cinematic relaunch evaporated, my enthusiasm evaporated too. And my tastes changed. Man of Steel was what I needed and it came at the right time. The suit was redesigned. The theme was changed and there was action to get excited about. Snyder got me on board. I felt a part of something.

It made me rediscover Superman's past which I largely ignored for so long. I still think Superman III, IV and Returns stink, but STM and SII? I like them, and you'll even see me defend them these days. Not in a big and bold way like Batman, but nonetheless, I'll try and fight my corner.

I think S:TAS, along with the two JL cartoons, are the best incarnation of the character, bar none. That's all I'll say about that.

But the biggest revelation for me has been the comics. I maintain that Batman has the best comics out of any character. I don't think it's even a fair fight. The quality is really deep and varied in a way that others can't compete. But Superman? He's no slouch in the comic department. The foundation of any character has to be strong to justify their existence in the first place, and Superman's foundations are strong.

Cavill/Snyder made me care about this character in a way that I didn't before. I mean every word of that. I bought a Superman logo shirt and I wear it from time to time on the weekends. I couldn't imagine doing that years ago. But here we are. The values of Superman (truth, justice and the American way) really spoke to me in a big way. I think that's really important. It's what we need and I'm happy to broadcast it.

I don't think I'm alone when I say the Snyder films made me appreciate Superman more than I had done. To tell you the truth, Dawn of Justice is what cemented my feelings. When I saw him get falsely accused it struck a chord with me. He put up with so much crap, yet still laid down his life for humanity. It doesn't get any more heroic than that. So when people bash Dawn of Justice, remember there's always someone like me who responded positively to it.

[Dagenspear]

I saw this nice collage that somebody on Twitter compiled to illustrate examples how Superman touched people's lives, and connect them to a line spoken by Batman in the latest Justice League trailer.



Source: https://twitter.com/TheoB0rg/status/892457373260017664

One can state the execution hasn't always been the best, but it's foolish to say Snyder's Superman hasn't made a positive influence to the world in the DCEU.

That's the thing here: He didn't make people see the best of themselves at all. People just did it. Nothing Superman does would effect people this way. Superman doesn't turn Batman around. Batman sees Superman as a person based on something they have in common. Superman's actions aren't different here than they are in MOS. There's no reason for it to change anything. The only thing that holds water to me is the bully to friend thing. Society wouldn't treat Superman as if his loss was the equivalent of the loss of many lives. Ally wasn't earned. That soldier was one in connection to trying to save the world irregardless of Superman. There's no reality to many of these statements. Society doesn't change like that. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[thecolorsblend]

Society doesn't change like that.

On December 6, 1941, America wanted no part of war with anybody. On December 8, 1941, they couldn't want to beat the snot out of the Japanese. One incident caused that change.

On September 10, 2001, American society was fairly high-trust. Beginning September 12, 2001, American society has become progressively less and less high-trust. One incident caused that change.

In his time, Benedict Arnold was originally regarded as one of our great heroes and patriots. And his memory would probably still be that way if he'd died in the Battles of Saratoga. One incident caused that change.

Yeah, society absolutely changes like that.

[Dagenspear]

Society doesn't change like that.

On December 6, 1941, America wanted no part of war with anybody. On December 8, 1941, they couldn't want to beat the snot out of the Japanese. One incident caused that change.

On September 10, 2001, American society was fairly high-trust. Beginning September 12, 2001, American society has become progressively less and less high-trust. One incident caused that change.

In his time, Benedict Arnold was originally regarded as one of our great heroes and patriots. And his memory would probably still be that way if he'd died in the Battles of Saratoga. One incident caused that change.

Yeah, society absolutely changes like that.

That's not the loss of a single person. It's not comparable at all. A single persons' loss like this, even a hero's, doesn't shift hate to love. It doesn't happen. Not to mention, that shifting from apathetic to angry isn't huge. From hate to love, very much.

[thecolorsblend]

It's not comparable at all.

Probably true but unfortunately there's never been an alien who arrived on Earth, saved a bunch of people, was misunderstood and then sacrificed his life saving the world from extinction which caused society to reappraise him.

So lacking an identical analog event in history to which I can point, I offered up examples of other times society changed overnight.

You seem very literalistic. Apart from being an annoying trait in general, that characteristic comes off as though you're desperately searching for "problems" to pick apart to justify your disliking of the movie.

And I get it, you don't like the BVS or the DCEU Superman. In fact, apart from the Nolan trilogy I'm at a loss to think of anything you actually do enjoy. Trust me, we all got the memo a year ago. So what's this all about?

[Dagenspear]

It's not comparable at all.

Probably true but unfortunately there's never been an alien who arrived on Earth, saved a bunch of people, was misunderstood and then sacrificed his life saving the world from extinction which caused society to reappraise him.

So lacking an identical analog event in history to which I can point, I offered up examples of other times society changed overnight.

You seem very literalistic. Apart from being an annoying trait in general, that characteristic comes off as though you're desperately searching for "problems" to pick apart to justify your disliking of the movie.

And I get it, you don't like the BVS or the DCEU Superman. In fact, apart from the Nolan trilogy I'm at a loss to think of anything you actually do enjoy. Trust me, we all got the memo a year ago. So what's this all about?

Aliens don't have the magical ability to change how society acts. Alien or not. Hero or not. Society doesn't change like that.

I'm a big fan of the Burton/Schumacher movies and the animated series. Also Smallville. Batman: The Brave And The Bold. And Gotham. I don't understand the assumption.