What are your issues with the DCEU Superman?

[The Laughing Fish]

Now that we're under a year away from Justice League coming out, I believe it's a good idea to start a thread discussing Superman in the DCEU, and share what we like and don't like about him, what could improve and what we want to see from him in JL and beyond. If anyone wants to air their grievances about him, go ahead, this is not meant to be a one-sided thread. Unless if you haven't seen any of the films.

I think, rightly or wrongfully depending on your point of view, it's fair to say that Superman's reception among audiences has been polarizing at best. There has been some superficial criticism against this take i.e. lack of smiling and always mopey, and there has been some criticism about how his character arc has been executed so far i.e. Christ figure allusions.

I've seen some absurd claims by some people declaring "Superman is just as dark as Batman". I can't understand how. In BvS, Batman is easily the most psychologically disturbed between the two heroes. His paranoia over what Superman might do if he were to turn rogue, and his nightmare in the mausoleum are enough to explore his deeply damaged psyche. In contrast, Superman tries to be the best hero he can be, but he is troubled by a cynical and divided world; he's uncomfortable how one half sees him as a God just as he's disturbed by the other half who see him as a threat. I get that some people don't like this theme, or thought it wasn't explored as well as they could've hoped, but that doesn't make Superman dark.

In my opinion, my only real complaint of Superman's story in the DCEU to date would have to be the decision to kill off Jonathan Kent. I understand what they were going for, but I reckon it was unnecessary because he's already tragic enough as the adopted lonely alien, growing up unsure if the world would accept or reject him. If humanity were to accept Superman, it makes Pa Kent's death even more painful to bear. That being said, would that tornado scene in MOS worked better for audiences if the teenage Clark played it, instead of Cavill? Who knows?

I used to be annoyed by Pa Kent's "maybe" line, but upon reflection, I'm not so bothered by it anymore. After watching that scene in the farm again, it made realise that there might have been a long pause in between that word and the rest of his sentence. After all, Jonathan's point to Clark wasn't that he shouldn't have saved anyone, as many people incorrectly assumed. It was to warn Clark that the world isn't ready for someone like him, and he should grow up as a man and decide if he wants to bear such a responsibility, instead of getting exposed at a young age.

Clark: What was I supposed to do? Just let them die.

Pa Kent: Maybe...(long pause)...there's more to stake than just our lives, Clark, and the lives of those around us. When the world finds out what you can do, it's gonna change everything, our beliefs, our notions of what it means to be human. Everything.

That being said, when Superman eventually returns from the dead, I anticipate his struggles with the world would already be over. Not because of a change in narrative to address the over-exaggerated backlash by critics, but because of his sacrifice to save the planet from Doomsday. If the ending of BvS should tell you anything, it's that despite the mistrust and hatred aimed for him, Superman would still give his own life to save humanity. Because that's the kind of man he is.

[thecolorsblend]

For better or for worse, the through line Goyer, Snyder and everyone else settled on for Superman is "contact", where mankind finally realizes there are aliens out there and the effect that would have on society. To their credit, it IS a big deal and most previous incarnations of Superman tend to underplay the significance of that.

One major challenge is Cavill's Superman doesn't exist in a vacuum. It comes on the heels of Smallville (which showed a fairly optimistic and relatively well-adjusted Clark), the STM generation's hegemony on Superman fandom (rightly or wrongly, those movies are considered "feel good" entertainment in ways MOS and BVS aren't) and STAS (ditto).

My honest opinion is that WB doesn't like Superman. Snyder and maybe Goyer do like Superman but they're up against a machine without the same affection for the character and his history. Snyder is coloring inside the lines as well as he can under the circumstances.

It doesn't help that Superman isn't an easy character to craft a feature-length movie around in today's world. As Lex himself says in BVS, Superman is both all good and all powerful.

A character who is one or the other is probably catnip for writers. But a character who's both is a big challenge because what arc can you put that character through in a way that won't compromise him? What challenge can you throw at him that won't make him look weak?

I understand the challenges of doing Superman in today's world and I admire Snyder for doing the job as well as anybody could've. He wasn't my first choice to direct Superman but I think he hasn't gotten anywhere near enough credit for a job extremely well done.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't have much to worry about on this front. I like what Snyder's done.

I would have agreed somewhat about Superman being underused if the UC didn't come along. But it did, and those extra Clark Kent scenes really strengthened the portrayal for me. A lot rests with how Snyder resurrects Superman from the dead, and what they do with Clark. But I'm not worried. I have confidence it will work out fine. The end of BvS has a world in mourning, so the pressure and hate is going to be reduced.

[The Laughing Fish]

For better or for worse, the through line Goyer, Snyder and everyone else settled on for Superman is "contact", where mankind finally realizes there are aliens out there and the effect that would have on society. To their credit, it IS a big deal and most previous incarnations of Superman tend to underplay the significance of that.

I'm normally not a fan of Goyer's "realistic" treatment of DC characters, but this is one area where he and Snyder don't get enough credit. I was left cold and unimpressed with the so-called "realism" in the Nolan Batman films because they tend to focus on superficial details i.e. where Batman gets his equipment and explaining how the costume works and so on, and not enough emphasis on how his actions affect Gotham. We arguably get more insight about Batman from the scared dungeon prisoners and the few people Clark spoke to in the Ultimate Edition than the general public has to say in the entire trilogy.

But if you explore how people might react to Superman's presence in the world, and how people with agendas could take advantage of public perception, you've got something fascinating to explore. I believe it's a lot more tangible showing how there's a cause and effect in what Superman does and there is something you can take away from it intellectually. In real life, people like to talk about UFOs and aliens, but I don't think humanity would know how to react if first contact is made with aliens. Particularly if they're capable of things we can't do, which depending on the person, this could be looked as something to admire and worship (Day of the Dead audience), or to condemn as an abomination (Capitol protestors).

[thecolorsblend]

I'm normally not a fan of Goyer's "realistic" treatment of DC characters, but this is one area where he and Snyder don't get enough credit. I was left cold and unimpressed with the so-called "realism" in the Nolan Batman films because they tend to focus on superficial details i.e. where Batman gets his equipment and explaining how the costume works and so on, and not enough emphasis on how his actions affect Gotham. We arguably get more insight about Batman from the scared dungeon prisoners and the few people Clark spoke to in the Ultimate Edition than the general public has to say in the entire trilogy.

But if you explore how people might react to Superman's presence in the world, and how people with agendas could take advantage of public perception, you've got something fascinating to explore. I believe it's a lot more tangible showing how there's a cause and effect in what Superman does and there is something you can take away from it intellectually. In real life, people like to talk about UFOs and aliens, but I don't think humanity would know how to react if first contact is made with aliens. Particularly if they're capable of things we can't do, which depending on the person, this could be looked as something to admire and worship (Day of the Dead audience), or to condemn as an abomination (Capitol protestors).

Indeed. What works for me is how it resonates with Jor-El's mission from MOS. It's a very Grant Morrison idea of Superman serving not just as an example for mankind but leading them into a better tomorrow.

I think the Jesus thing is actually on point for those reasons since there is an obvious political angle to the Davidic throne. So BVS is touching upon the Jesus metaphor, yes, but it's from the standpoint of Christ the King for most of its run time than Christ the Savior angle. It's relevant to Christ's identity, the Jesus metaphor is obviously not foreign to Superman and all those politicos yammering on TV about this or that religious thing are hitting the nail on the head.

Mind you, this is not to speak of the fact that Superman dies in BVS... which came out on Good Friday. So hmm.

Anyway, the public is obviously grappling with Superman as mankind's guide but they're breaking in his direction. Yes, there are some dialectics people need to go through in order to accept Superman's leadership. But that is where the trends are going in the movie.

Obviously the conclusion of the movie both accelerates their acceptance of Superman (posthumously, of course, but it still happens) while also bringing a depth of fulfillment to the Jesus metaphor that no filmmaker has really done before.

And it is here that I'm torn between how well done everything is (and it IS well done!) and what I want from Superman in live action cinema right now (eg, a very Pre-Crisisy, Silver Agey type of do-gooder). Snyder isn't giving me what I want from Superman right now, per se. But what he is doing is RIDICULOUSLY well executed so it's hard to complain too much. It's apparent a lot of thought and detail went into Superman's arc in the DCEU up to now.

To put the final touches on all this, the Injustice: Gods Among Us thing might be in the future. And if it is, I have to view that as the dark side (so to speak) of what Jor-El wanted Kal to be as mankind's guide. Yes, there is benevolent manifestation of Superman as mankind's leader and champion.

But there's also a pissed off, heartbroken Superman being mankind's conqueror... which is kinda sorta totally the opposite of what Jor-El envisioned.

The payoff to that might be Superman deciding to be a hero but not necessarily a sort of aspirational guide along the lines of what Jor-El originally planned.

It's also possible I'm completely wrong and you should just ignore me. We can't discount that possibility.

[The Dark Knight]

But if you explore how people might react to Superman's presence in the world, and how people with agendas could take advantage of public perception, you've got something fascinating to explore. I believe it's a lot more tangible showing how there's a cause and effect in what Superman does and there is something you can take away from it intellectually. In real life, people like to talk about UFOs and aliens, but I don't think humanity would know how to react if first contact is made with aliens. Particularly if they're capable of things we can't do, which depending on the person, this could be looked as something to admire and worship (Day of the Dead audience), or to condemn as an abomination (Capitol protestors).

Honestly, I think the Superman montage sequence with all the TV talking heads is the best Superman scene from ANY of the films. I think it's the best example of applying 'realism' to something that is completely fantastical. I've seen that clip many times, but I still get goosebumps. The chills peak when the "maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing" quote pops up. That says so much to me. It cuts right to the core of the character. He's truly 'just a guy' like you or me, except that he's an alien with superpowers. And he's a good samaritain with no hidden ulterior motive. But he stills gets a hard time. To me, along with the broody and emotional music, they totally nailed the modern Superman atmosphere.

[thecolorsblend]

Honestly, I think the Superman montage sequence with all the TV talking heads is the best Superman scene from ANY of the films. I think it's the best example of applying 'realism' to something that is completely fantastical. I've seen that clip many times, but I still get goosebumps. The chills peak when the "maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing" quote pops up. That says so much to me. It cuts right to the core of the character. He's truly 'just a guy' like you or me, except that he's an alien with superpowers. And he's a good samaritain with no hidden ulterior motive. But he stills gets a hard time. To me, along with the broody and emotional music, they totally nailed the modern Superman atmosphere.

I enjoy the multiple perspectives that sequence offers. And you're right, it is captivating to watch on a visual level. Zimmer's score in that sequence is incredibly well done too. It has this strange brew mix of optimism, paranoia and heroism. Incredibly well done and it perfectly captures the tones of all those talking heads.

The thing that really works for me is how the end of the movie is the perfect resolution to that sequence. Superman's name is now a legend and he will be loved forever after he comes back. He's earned it by this point too.

Great sequence!

[The Dark Knight]

The moral of the story is that Superman must intervene and he will. He's the big kid in the playground. If he does nothing, he's held equally responsible for the violence he failed to stop. But if he steps up and gives someone a good whacking, he's called a bully. The only way to cut through these media driven outrages is to simply do the right thing. If something has to be done, it has to be done, even if it's unpopular. Period. Because the professionally outraged will be moaning regardless.

I think obviously Superman is going to be a lot more loved in JL. But I think someone like Superman would always be divisive, because the media would see to that. They're not going to give an all powerful saviour great press because they're all about tearing people down and being sceptical. They want people to fail. In an ideal scenario, I'd have the media more or less continuing their BvS attitude because they won't be told otherwise, even though they've been wrong the entire time. But this time the people rise up and say 'eff your divide and conquer, we stand with Superman, not you'.

[thecolorsblend]

In an ideal scenario, I'd have the media more or less continuing their BvS attitude because they won't be told otherwise, even though they've been wrong the entire time. But this time the people rise up and say 'eff your divide and conquer, we stand with Superman, not you'.

Heh, if these movies are intended to reflect real world events in metaphor, very similar things are happening with the real world's so-called news media so I'd be for this.

[The Laughing Fish]

Honestly, I think the Superman montage sequence with all the TV talking heads is the best Superman scene from ANY of the films. I think it's the best example of applying 'realism' to something that is completely fantastical. I've seen that clip many times, but I still get goosebumps. The chills peak when the "maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing" quote pops up. That says so much to me. It cuts right to the core of the character. He's truly 'just a guy' like you or me, except that he's an alien with superpowers. And he's a good samaritain with no hidden ulterior motive. But he stills gets a hard time. To me, along with the broody and emotional music, they totally nailed the modern Superman atmosphere.

I enjoy the multiple perspectives that sequence offers. And you're right, it is captivating to watch on a visual level. Zimmer's score in that sequence is incredibly well done too. It has this strange brew mix of optimism, paranoia and heroism. Incredibly well done and it perfectly captures the tones of all those talking heads.

The thing that really works for me is how the end of the movie is the perfect resolution to that sequence. Superman's name is now a legend and he will be loved forever after he comes back. He's earned it by this point too.

Great sequence!

I still haven't found anyone who can convincingly explain to me why they were so put off by Superman in this film, even after watching the Ultimate Edition. Nearly all of the comments I see online are hyperbolic. One person even suggested that Superman didn't want to carry a burden and be a hero. Did he/she actually watched the film?

I've seen some people complain about Superman not saying a word during the Capitol scene. While I originally had my issues with this scene (which are now resolved thanks to the Ultimate Edition), it didn't bother me so much because the point was that Lex was setting everything in motion to not only manipulate Batman into fighting Superman, but to rob Superman the chance of making his voice heard.

A common thing about Superman is when he is demanded to face questioning by the government, he'll come forward. Just like how he submitted himself to the military in MOS. Superman thought by coming forward to answer his actions in Africa would be doing the right thing, but instead, his presence continues to cause unintended consequences. It was Lex's way of dehumanising Superman in the eyes of the public.

But this does NOT mean that the filmmakers themselves believe Superman is immoral, and deserves to be hated. If that were the case, the film would've ended with Superman retiring for good, and Batman and Wonder Woman saving the day.