Bat Brand of Justice

[The Dark Knight]

From what I've heard/read, that basically matches up, but it seems like an easier way out in the story to me than I'd have preferred.

I think it would've worked, considering Bruce still had to be a functional human being in recruiting various League members. Batman keeps secrets and burdens, such as the Knightmare vision. Having a death wish wouldn't be out of character.

[Dagenspear]

I think it would've worked, considering Bruce still had to be a functional human being in recruiting various League members. Batman keeps secrets and burdens, such as the Knightmare vision. Having a death wish wouldn't be out of character.

I think they could've had Bruce not be able to recruit them, because they don't like him for what he's done and/or don't trust him, and they come together out of necessity. I wouldn't argue it's out of character, more an easy out for Bruce's character having consequences for his actions, in that he feels guilty enough to try and get himself killed. Instead of dealing with the outward consequences more directly. I think that's more structuring the story to fit around Bruce's character.

I want Gordon to be against him. The league members to be untrusting of him and what he says. Diana to be apprehensive about his issues and his goals. Alfred to be angry about Bruce thinking he can just go back to the way things were without strong consequences for his actions. I think that's a realistic set of consequences for Bruce's actions. Maybe even Bruce can truly find God and get some help in his issues.

[The Dark Knight]

I want Gordon to be against him. The league members to be untrusting of him and what he says. Diana to be apprehensive about his issues and his goals. Alfred to be angry about Bruce thinking he can just go back to the way things were without strong consequences for his actions. I think that's a realistic set of consequences for Bruce's actions.

I don't think SnyderLeague would've gone down this direction (not that it matters anymore), but I don't dislike your ideas here. Lots of good material to flesh out in a hypothetical continuation of BvS.

Maybe even Bruce can truly find God and get some help in his issues.

How do you feel about vigilantism without killing in terms of being a follower of God? Do you think violence against criminals is still a disqualification, or is it tolerated from a good versus evil perspective?

[thecolorsblend]

How do you feel about vigilantism without killing in terms of being a follower of God? Do you think violence against criminals is still a disqualification, or is it tolerated from a good versus evil perspective?

I'll take a swing at that after Dagen answers.

[Dagenspear]

I don't think SnyderLeague would've gone down this direction (not that it matters anymore), but I don't dislike your ideas here. Lots of good material to flesh out in a hypothetical continuation of BvS.

I think that by taking Batman into a darker place, stuff like that has weight for the story. In the movies I think it's too easy.

How do you feel about vigilantism without killing in terms of being a follower of God? Do you think violence against criminals is still a disqualification, or is it tolerated from a good versus evil perspective?

An important thing to always keep in mind as a Christian id forgiveness. The Holy Bible's Old Testament speaks of punishment for crimes, in some cases being put to death, depending on the severity of the crime. The New Testament, as I understand it, speaks toward the forgiveness of everyone, and for us as Christians to treat people as if they've been saved, because Jesus has died for sins, I think whether they've accepted it or not. Jesus Himself forgave a woman of apparent adultery when men brought her to Him for her to be stoned.

As far as it relates to Batman, as a fan, I like the idea of Batman being unofficially deputized in a lot of ways. I think Batman has a push and pull to where he seeks to help people but drives himself into pain and anger. Batman, irregardless of my liking of him, is a fictional character. But in this context, it's not justified, but it can happen. Redemption at that stage isn't impossible for him, even in BvS.

In a way, that's one of the things I like about the Martha scene. Bruce gives this big thing where he talks about the lesson his parents taught him, dying in the gutter for no reason at all, only to, by sheer if this were real life I'd call it divine intervention, the person he saw as an alien monster's mom has the same name as his mom that's had such a big impact on his life and I think of it as a wakeup call for his cynicism, the lie that he's believed that his parent's death had no reason, he sees that that's not true and he realizes redemption for himself is possible. Whether all this was planned in film, I don't know, but I like it.

So I think, in particular for Batman, there's an idea of potential redemption. I think Batman himself isn't against the idea either. I think back to BTAS/TNBA and there being a few episodes where Bruce showed kindness to criminals and/or maybe supervillains.

[The Dark Knight]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not religious but I see Batman pretty much in the way Harvey describes in TDK - someone fighting crime and his deeds being a necessity, even if it's also an ongoing psychological need for Bruce. "When their enemies were at the gates, the Romans would suspend democracy and appoint one man to protect the city. It wasn't considered an honor, it was considered a public service." Which also happens to play into your unofficial deputization idea for the character.

How do you feel about vigilantism without killing in terms of being a follower of God? Do you think violence against criminals is still a disqualification, or is it tolerated from a good versus evil perspective?

I'll take a swing at that after Dagen answers.

Over to you.

[thecolorsblend]

How do you feel about vigilantism without killing in terms of being a follower of God? Do you think violence against criminals is still a disqualification, or is it tolerated from a good versus evil perspective?

I'll take a swing at that after Dagen answers.

I believe that God has given the state broad authority to maintain law and order, promote the common welfare and otherwise create conditions whereby citizens can grow and reach their potential.

Thus, while God probably doesn't like the idea of, say, the death penalty as a concept, I think He understands what's necessary to maintain civil authority and public safety. I believe this falls within the legitimate authority of the state which was given by God.

If the state abdicates its responsibilities in this matter, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that in my opinion while God may dislike vigilantism, He dislikes chaos, corruption and wholesale destablization even more than vigilantism. While I don't think that vigilantes would or should expect to receive the same latitude from God that the legitimate state has received, I also don't necessarily think that God would condemn acts of vigilantism which are done as honestly, humanely, fairly and with as pure-of-heart motives as possible.

In the end, human justice will always have very strict limitations to it. But just because our justice is limited does not mean we should not continue to pursue justice. To do so would be, I think, a denial of God's established order and possibly tantamount to an insult to the Lord Himself.

[The Dark Knight]

The Holy Bible's Old Testament speaks of punishment for crimes, in some cases being put to death, depending on the severity of the crime.

Back to this. As I'm not a Bible Blieven' Christian my knowledge isn't as extensive as yours. But nonetheless, my favorite fable is the crossing of the Red Sea. Why? Because it demonstrates a God who is absolutely willing to kill evildoers - in this instance washing away the Egyptians. It also shows the vital importance of timing. When all seems lost justice is dealt onto unsuspecting foes, granting the forces of good victory. Death isn't attractive but it can be necessary.

[The Laughing Fish]

Zack Snyder was interviewed by Joe Rogan the other day. Among a lot of things, Snyder touched upon the reaction towards Batman's killing in BvS, and spoke how he was inspired by deconstructionism and Miller's Dark Knight Returns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3suBldl7WOo&ab_channel=JREClips

I did chuckle when Rogan said he didn't know Batman doesn't normally kill in the comics, and he finds it ridiculous given the stakes.

Hypocritical Batman fans can make up excuses to give their favourite interpretations a pass all they want while trying to justify their condemnation for what happened in BvS. But at least BvS doesn't shy away from Batman's actions and state of mind throughout the film. The only other film that came close to that was Batman Forever.

As for Snyder's description of the "I believe you" scene in DKR in comparison to his version in BvS, some fanboys will insist Snyder misunderstood the scene. Not only was that scene ambiguous at best, even DKR animated director Jay Oliva believed Batman killed in that scene:

My interpretation was that he shot the thug in the head. I noticed the times Batman loses his s*** is when children are involved. He won't break his rule but if it would mean a child would be killed then I think he'd make an exception. Remember his parents died when he was a kid

We changed it in the movie to the hand to keep it simpler and to drive the narrative forward. That sequence needs a lot more exploration and deep dive into what Batman is willing to do or not to do for justice. I didn't have that luxury in the film to explore.

We barely had enough time to fit everything into 2 films as it was!

But I do find that concept fascinating. Especially in the context of a DKR Batman.

https://twitter.com/jayoliva1/status/1197982683608993792