WTF: Batman Returns (Blog)

[The Laughing Fish]

Batman Begins was also quite good in terms of atmosphere. It's from TDK when things started looking too... "real".

The Gotham scenes in JL showed some promise. Too bad.

I disagree. I thought Gotham City in BB was dull and severely lacked in atmosphere as well. The whole monorail architecture never did anything for me, and I was never a fan of the city having this sepia tone either.

Some people complained how the Gotham scenes in JL looked as if they were set in a sound stage ala Burton because it didn't clash with a realistic-looking city in BvS, but I don't care. If memory serves me right, the GCPD building had this twisted structure inside that looked just as twisted and chaotic as the city itself. It would be nice to see Gotham City that's a character of its own again.

[thecolorsblend]

No offense to any of you but I don't really grasp the discussion going on here. Gotham City in Nolan's movies is visually boring to me. The only shot of Gotham City I really like from his trilogy is in TDK when Batman is standing on that rooftop when the Joker announces where to find "Harvey" "Dent". And really, that's literally the atmosphere. It looks like a very balmy, humid night. The moisture in the air is so thick you can nearly cut it with your pocket knife. I love nights like that. It's rare to see them in movies but the come around sometimes.

That's it. That one shot is the only one of Gotham City that I really enjoy. And it's nothing to do with the Gotham Cityness of that shot.

Burton. All the way. Hell, even Schumacher had a more visually interesting Gotham City.

[The Dark Knight]

That's the thing my funky amigos. Atmosphere is king. Why do I rather like the Narrows in Baleman Begins A Very Short Career? Mainly because they serve a mean falafel. But apart from that, I like the rain and the ambience that provides. I also like how this place is a dirty slum which resembles California. You would need many buckets of hot soapy water to scrub this place clea....nah, screw it. You'd just call in the dozers and start again.

Nothing else in the Nolan trilogy evoked that same type of atmosphere for me. Where's Nolan's similar level of creativity such as Burton's camera zooming around to establish Artic World? NOWHERE, man.

[Azrael]

Batman Begins was also quite good in terms of atmosphere. It's from TDK when things started looking too... "real".

The Gotham scenes in JL showed some promise. Too bad.

I disagree. I thought Gotham City in BB was dull and severely lacked in atmosphere as well. The whole monorail architecture never did anything for me, and I was never a fan of the city having this sepia tone either.

Some people complained how the Gotham scenes in JL looked as if they were set in a sound stage ala Burton because it didn't clash with a realistic-looking city in BvS, but I don't care. If memory serves me right, the GCPD building had this twisted structure inside that looked just as twisted and chaotic as the city itself. It would be nice to see Gotham City that's a character of its own again.

Sure, it doesn't compare design-wise to Furst's work, but The Narrows felt like a world of perpetual rain and fog, not Generic American City.

JL: The look of Gotham, or Batman smiling etc. is like blaming the cherry for a s#it cake. (No, I don't lack perspective, I don't think JL is as BAD as Catwoman or Steel, but it being a mediocre Avengers clone with ugly CG and obviously incomplete/rushed/half-cooked elements while it was supposed to be one of the best DC movies that would elevate the DCEU - this classifies as BAD. My hatred and vowing to never watch it ever again comes from desire for it to be good and succeed, high hopes and big disappointment).

No offense to any of you but I don't really grasp the discussion going on here. Gotham City in Nolan's movies is visually boring to me. The only shot of Gotham City I really like from his trilogy is in TDK when Batman is standing on that rooftop when the Joker announces where to find "Harvey" "Dent". And really, that's literally the atmosphere. It looks like a very balmy, humid night. The moisture in the air is so thick you can nearly cut it with your pocket knife. I love nights like that. It's rare to see them in movies but the come around sometimes.

That's it. That one shot is the only one of Gotham City that I really enjoy. And it's nothing to do with the Gotham Cityness of that shot.

Burton. All the way. Hell, even Schumacher had a more visually interesting Gotham City.

My point is that BB had promise. It was "grounded" compared to the previous films, especially the last one, but still looked like a Batman movie. Back in 2005 some of us thought "escalation" accompanied by the Joker card meant the gradual introduction of more stylized and comic book elements (while keeping it more "grounded" and "serious" compared to 1997). We know how this went.

That's the thing my funky amigos. Atmosphere is king. Why do I rather like the Narrows in Baleman Begins A Very Short Career? Mainly because they serve a mean falafel. But apart from that, I like the rain and the ambience that provides. I also like how this place is a dirty slum which resembles California. You would need many buckets of hot soapy water to scrub this place clea....nah, screw it. You'd just call in the dozers and start again.

Nothing else in the Nolan trilogy evoked that same type of atmosphere for me. Where's Nolan's similar level of creativity such as Burton's camera zooming around to establish Artic World? NOWHERE, man.

Same page - for me Batman is more about atmosphere than being "real". It's not supposed to look real. Just enough "realism" and verisimilitude to make it relatable.

There is something about the opening shot of TDK, with the camera zooming in. Problem is it's a huge glass box in broad daylight, not an elaborate set, or at least a striking real world building, with interesting lighting. Just the type of ornament-free glass polygon architects of the modern era are so very fond of. Maybe this is how it should be ITRW, but it's boring to look at in a movie that is supposed to take place in Gotham.

[The Laughing Fish]

JL: The look of Gotham, or Batman smiling etc. is like blaming the cherry for a s#it cake. (No, I don't lack perspective, I don't think JL is as BAD as Catwoman or Steel, but it being a mediocre Avengers clone with ugly CG and obviously incomplete/rushed/half-cooked elements while it was supposed to be one of the best DC movies that would elevate the DCEU - this classifies as BAD. My hatred and vowing to never watch it ever again comes from desire for it to be good and succeed, high hopes and big disappointment).

JL definitely could've/should've been better. Particularly when you consider its enormous budget, regardless of the highly dubious circumstances going on behind the scenes. It certainly doesn't help when there are strong suspicions that the film's original vision was compromised because of studio meddling, as time goes by. But honestly, I would still take that final theatrical cut as it is any day than some of the criminally overrated garbage in the DC catalogue we've been subjected to in recent years.

[thecolorsblend]

My point is that BB had promise. It was "grounded" compared to the previous films, especially the last one, but still looked like a Batman movie. Back in 2005 some of us thought "escalation" accompanied by the Joker card meant the gradual introduction of more stylized and comic book elements (while keeping it more "grounded" and "serious" compared to 1997). We know how this went.

I remember people thinking that back in the old days. And while I certainly never predicted TDK or TDKRises, it didn't seem very likely for things to move in a more stylized direction with the ensuing sequels.

It is interesting to think about that though. Nolan had riffed so much on The Long Halloween in BB that it's interesting to consider what might've happened if he'd followed that same trajectory of showing Gotham City's underworld transition from pinstriped gangsters to garish supervillains. Not sure Nolan would've been the guy to show the transition but it's still kind of fun to think about.

[The Dark Knight]

Sure, it doesn't compare design-wise to Furst's work, but The Narrows felt like a world of perpetual rain and fog, not Generic American City.

100%

Same page - for me Batman is more about atmosphere than being "real". It's not supposed to look real. Just enough "realism" and verisimilitude to make it relatable.

A heightened form of reality suits Batman best. Something that reflects his personality, like a red or blue sky, snow, lightning, rain or a generally gloomy vibe. The Burton films and BTAS understood that, and I seriously believe they wouldn't be as good without it. That's why we love places like the Batcave. We are entering a fantasy world that looks so visually appealing and so unlike anything else we're used to in real life. Aspects of Gotham can appear in our everyday lives, but not to this extent, or all the time. Batman and his world are akin to a haunted mansion attraction. We can't help but be attracted to the mystery and the adrenaline of these places. The danger makes us feel alive.

[Silver Nemesis]

Sure, it doesn't compare design-wise to Furst's work, but The Narrows felt like a world of perpetual rain and fog, not Generic American City.

I think the Batman Begins Gotham strikes a great balance between stylisation and realism. Compare the Wayne Enterprises boardroom in BB to the one in TDK and TDKR. In the latter two films it looks like a real featureless office, devoid of artistic embellishment.

In BB it has a distinctive curved wooden desk, art nouveau light fixtures, stylised latticework on the windows, and sculpted busts mounted on pedestals around the edge of the room. Notice how the mise-en-scène creates a distinctive colour palette that emphasises browns and beiges.

This is consistent throughout the film, both in the interiors and exteriors. Even when Nolan incorporates location footage from London and Chicago, Pfister's cinematography does a grand job of matching the lighting and colour tones with the studio scenes.

The overall effect is a Gotham that feels bigger and more densely populated than Burton's, but still retains many of the tonal qualities that distinguish it from an ordinary city. I also like the ruddy tint to the clouds in the film's final act. It always reminds me of the red sky from The New Batman Adventures.

The architecture and exterior set design emphasises rusty metal girders, claustrophobic spaces, strangulatory cables and abundant refuse. A hydraulic theme permeates the city in the form of rivers, pipes, rain and steam, while the moody low-key lighting lends Nolan's vistas a murky film noir ambience. It's Kowloon by way of Jean-Pierre Jeunet.

The BB Gotham is expressionistic in the truest sense of the term. Expressionism isn't just about being artsy or weird looking; it's about expressing internal meaning through external appearance. And that's precisely what the BB Gotham does. It's a wet, decaying, pustulant, overcrowded slum, half buried beneath mountains of rubbish and cluttered cables. The architectural and infrastructural decay reflects the moral and economic entropy that is eating away at the city's heart and soul.

To my mind, the BB Gotham represents the aesthetic middle ground between the B89 Gotham and the TDK incarnation. And while I don't like it nearly as much as Anton Furst's designs, I still consider it one of the better interpretations of Gotham in live action. It's certainly the portrayal that best reflects the visual character of Mazzucchelli's Gotham from Batman: Year One.

[GoNerdYourself]

Great analysis, Silver!

I really do enjoy the look of the Narrows. It was moody, busy, trashy, and druggy. I wanted to see Batman spending more time in this atmosphere, but Nolan & co. practically retconned those elements from the sequels. Do they even mention the Narrows or the elevated trains in The Dark Knight? I can't remember, but their departure from the trilogy is jarring to me.

[The Dark Knight]

How did I miss this recent Silver Nemesis master class?

As his comparisons show, Begins actually started the trilogy off to a decent start in regards to Gotham. It managed to blend realism with something a little more atmospheric. The film had an 'earthy' tone with the brown hue, coupled with the raw version of the batcave. And when you think about it, nature in general played a big part in Begins. The blue flower compound. The blizzard outside Ras' Temple. The ice which Ducard and Bruce duel on. The rain in the Narrows. The fire which burns down Wayne Manor, and maybe a couple other examples I've missed.

Bottom line, TDK and TDKR have valid interpretations of Gotham, but I don't find them that interesting.