Did Jack Napier Know He Killed Bruce Wayne's Parents?

[Slash Man]

Namely, did he realize after the fact? Usually, when the killing of the Waynes is told, the mugger is usually oblivious to their identities. I assume the same went for in Batman, and they weren't intentionally singled out.

Anyways, Joker recognizes Bruce Wayne in Vicki's apartment. But he seems to only recognize him as the wealthy socialite and not the boy he orphaned. When he asked him if he danced with the devil, he didn't intend for Bruce to remember it and link it back to Jack Napier.

On the other hand, Joker recounts that he "was a kid" when he killed Bruce's parents. This could have simply been Joker faking that he remembered, remembering Bruce himself, or just remembering one of the assumedly few times that he killed a child's family.

For one thing, the Joker does not connect that Bruce is Batman at any point after this. It seems that Jack Napier has killed so many people that none take precedence in his mind, therefore the Waynes were just another victim for him.

[johnnygobbs]

Namely, did he realize after the fact? Usually, when the killing of the Waynes is told, the mugger is usually oblivious to their identities. I assume the same went for in Batman, and they weren't intentionally singled out.

Anyways, Joker recognizes Bruce Wayne in Vicki's apartment. But he seems to only recognize him as the wealthy socialite and not the boy he orphaned. When he asked him if he danced with the devil, he didn't intend for Bruce to remember it and link it back to Jack Napier.

On the other hand, Joker recounts that he "was a kid" when he killed Bruce's parents. This could have simply been Joker faking that he remembered, remembering Bruce himself, or just remembering one of the assumedly few times that he killed a child's family.

For one thing, the Joker does not connect that Bruce is Batman at any point after this. It seems that Jack Napier has killed so many people that none take precedence in his mind, therefore the Waynes were just another victim for him.

Great question and analysis.

Sam Hamm's screenplay for 'Batman 2', which I believe is still available online, retconned the Wayne murders as a hired hit, in which case it stands to reason that Jack would have known the identities of his victims (although, as far as Bruce's flashback goes, Jack's partner-in-crime, whether he was a young Bob or the real Joe Chill, seemed to think it was a simple mugging rather than a planned murder, judging by the panicked and disturbed look on his face - but the beauty of a POV memory scene/dream-sequence, rather than a matter-of-fact interpretation of the same events, is that it makes allowances for 'unreliability').

Plus, if Jack even paid cursory attention to the papers/news, he would have known that the couple he killed in Crime Alley (as it was later to be known) were members of Gotham's most prominent family.

On the other hand, you are right to say that The Joker/Jack doesn't appear to connect Bruce to the couple he killed during the scene in Vicki's apartment, but it's likely that the Joker's mind is so far gone at this stage, and he's so callous to the countless murders he committed, that it doesn't really register, at least not until later (i.e. prior to the cathedral rooftop scene where he acknowledges that he killed Bruce's parents as a 'kid').

It's also possible that The Joker/Jack is cognisant of the fact he killed Bruce's parents when he repeats his famous 'ever dance with the devil' line, and then shoots Bruce in the chest (or so he thinks).  Since he doesn't know that Bruce has a metal tray blocking his heart, and most likely hasn't yet worked out that Bruce is Batman, he presumably doesn't think it will hurt to effectively reveal, whether by accident or design, that he was the guy who killed Thomas and Martha Wayne all those years ago.

[riddler]

It doesn't seem that Jack connects that Bruce is Batman until the cathedral sequence. I don't see how he'd know since he doesn't meet Batman until ace chemicals. The "you created me" sequence seems to be the point he connects the two.

I'm sure he'd have to know that it was the Waynes he killed, it would have gotten quite a bit of press back then.

[The Laughing Fish]

It doesn't seem that Jack connects that Bruce is Batman until the cathedral sequence. I don't see how he'd know since he doesn't meet Batman until ace chemicals. The "you created me" sequence seems to be the point he connects the two.

I'm sure he'd have to know that it was the Waynes he killed, it would have gotten quite a bit of press back then.

Exactly right. As soon as Batman confronts Joker and calls back to "dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight", Joker must've figured out that the eccentric crazy Bruce Wayne guy he met back at Vicki's apartment is the same lunatic in the Batsuit.

As for the press, a poster here by the name eledoremassis02 collected and shared a couple of newspaper props reporting the Wayne murders a while back.

One version has blurred text after the opening paragraph, but doesn't mention anything about the Waynes being prominent, famous people. And if you look closely, the blurred text talks about random gibberish not connected to the incident.
Source: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/image/Misc/Blog/Indivdual%20Posts/Tim/WB%20Tour/IMG_1031.JPG

But here is another possible prop that goes into greater detail where the victims are described as "renowned humanitarians and socialites".
Source: http://postimg.org/image/cpjy7r59n/

In any case, I had a theory explaining why the Joker hadn't realised he murdered Thomas and Martha Wayne. I thought it was possible that the Wayne family may not have been renowned in the wider community throughout Gotham City. Considering that Bruce was hardly in the public limelight throughout the Burton films and not many people knew much about him, it wouldn't surprise me if his parents weren't exactly that well known either.

After all, Vicki and Knox didn't know anything about the Wayne murders until they discovered the news archive later on. That was when they realised it explained Bruce's strange and secretive behaviour, and on a deeper level, how that childhood trauma would've spurred him on to become the vengeful Batman. It might've been possible that the Joker had a similar epiphany during the cathedral scene.

[Wayne49]

I'm not really sure how much the Joker pieced together Bruce Wayne and Batman were the same at that moment because he was under duress and trying to stall Batman so he could figure a way out of his predicament.  You have to remember the Joker had made a career of killing people and using that "devil" line as a signature send off. Laughing Fish makes a good point that the Waynes may not have been that prominent in the public limelight for the Joker to even have any knowledge of their identity when he killed them. So with that being the case, how could he make a distinction with the Waynes when he likely orphaned other kids as well?

He knew who Bruce Wayne was as an adult because he called him by name. But he also thought he had killed him in Vickie's apartment. There was never a time when he discovered Bruce had survived. So for the Joker to actually piece together Bruce Wayne and Batman were the same at that precise moment would have created a host of continuity errors in the story. I've always felt the Joker only understood that Batman was a byproduct of his criminal past and that his existence would prove to be the Joker's undoing at the end.

[The Laughing Fish]

In retrospect, would it be right to ask if the filmmakers' decision to downplay the Waynes' public profile gives the movie a sense of realism? Perhaps more than Burton had intended.

Normally in other media, Bruce Wayne and his entire family legacy are among the most famous people in Gotham City, but like Clark Kent's disguise, you'd need to suspend your disbelief to ignore how nobody suspects he and Batman are the same. In reality, too many people would link the vigilante beating up muggers and psychopaths to a rich billionaire's tragic past. The suspicion would grow too strong to the point that word would spread throughout the community, from the police to the average Joe on the street, and of course, the criminals. From that perspective, making Bruce Wayne a private, lesser known person who could escape such scrutiny is quite clever. To make the connection in this universe, you'd have to a dedicated investigative reporter like Knox.

On a separate note, I like how Jack Napier used his position as Grissom's right-hand man to overtake his deceased boss's empire once he became the Joker. It's another nice little touch of realism there. After all, if you're a thug who isn't in the mob ranks and haven't any credibility nor organisational power whatsoever, how the hell are you going to take control of it?

For a film that's definitely fantastical, I reckon B89's use verisimilitude is a little bit underappreciated.

[Catwoman]

When I think of that bit of dialogue I can't help but think that this exchange in the first season finale of Batman Beyond would have probably been more in line with Jack's past, before and after the Wayne murders:

Derek Powers: Who are you?

Terry McGinnis: You really want to know?

Derek Powers: Yes!

Terry McGinnis: You killed my father.

Derek Powers: ...Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?

I used to think that maybe Jack stopped killing women and presumably (since he is about to wipe Bruce out too) children when he was a "kid" so he knew if he killed someone's parents it had to be back then, not that he specifically knew Bruce was the son of that particular couple. I'm not so sure anymore, though.

[Catwoman]

From that perspective, making Bruce Wayne a private, lesser known person who could escape such scrutiny is quite clever. To make the connection in this universe, you'd have to a dedicated investigative reporter like Knox.

Did he really have a low profile though? He was supposed to be sitting next to Jim Gordon at Harvey Dent's speech early in the movie and he hosts the big fundraiser ball at Wayne Manor. I've been thinking a bit lately, though, about how Knox could have not known about Bruce and that street if he had been in Gotham any length of time. Maybe he was a somewhat recent arrival himself and there were more pressing matters in Gotham than a 30-year-old murder case and a reclusive socialite. Some of it doesn't add up or I'm just not doing the math right, but it's not enough to make me not enjoy the movie.

[The Dark Knight]

There does seem to be a clash of ideas there. Bruce being invited to public events, yet nobody knowing who he is, or what he looks like. The only explanation I can muster at this point would be what happens in the film. Bruce is invited to Dent's speech but he doesn't attend. People know of the guy, and the city has a sense of obligation and respect towards him, but he rarely appears in public. Thus Bruce himself over time becomes an idea as much as Batman is. When Bruce throws the fundraiser the Wayne brand gets good public relations, and Bruce himself is content to roam around unnoticed.

[The Laughing Fish]

Did he really have a low profile though? He was supposed to be sitting next to Jim Gordon at Harvey Dent's speech early in the movie and he hosts the big fundraiser ball at Wayne Manor. I've been thinking a bit lately, though, about how Knox could have not known about Bruce and that street if he had been in Gotham any length of time. Maybe he was a somewhat recent arrival himself and there were more pressing matters in Gotham than a 30-year-old murder case and a reclusive socialite. Some of it doesn't add up or I'm just not doing the math right, but it's not enough to make me not enjoy the movie.

It's a reasonable question to ask. But my rationale is even though people might've been aware of Bruce's existence, it doesn't necessarily mean they know much about him. As TDK says, people didn't seem to have a clue about what he looked like, let alone know much about his story. At best, he tends to help for the benefit of Gotham City in his support of Harvey Dent and hosting the fundraiser. But otherwise, the man stays quiet, as if he's trying not to draw too much attention to himself. If he goes out in public, he'll do his best to come across as respectful, but at the same time, remain as a private individual*.

As to your guess that Knox might've been a recent arrival himself, I'd consider that, except A) it was never specified that was the case in the film, and B) not even Bob the Goon or the Joker seem to know anything about Bruce. Remember the scene where Bob shows Joker the photos he took of Vicki, and he remarks "she's dating some guy named Wayne". This goes to show that Bruce's lesser known public profile isn't only restricted to Vicki and Knox.

*On the other hand, I'll concede it's possible for somebody to argue that Bruce's absence at Dent's press conference should've drawn some suspicion among Commissioner Gordon and the police to investigate who the Batman might be.