Marvel's Punisher

[riddler]

the awesome thing about the PUnisher and Daredevil are just how different they are from other heroes.

The Punisher breaks the one rule that other super heroes live by. Even though it will never happen, I'd love to see what Bale's Batman would do in a world with the punisher.

Daredevil has always been appealing to me because while the other super heroes all have something which makes them special, he's the only one with a handicap. His powers are all self-taught like Batman only he doesn't have the bank roll or even the sense of sight.

[Silver Nemesis]

Yep, Daredevil's a rare example of a superhero who is as much defined by what he can't do as what he can. Typically superheroes are defined by abilities, not disabilities. Matt's defined by a mixture of the two. It's another of those fascinating paradoxes that make him so compelling – he's blind, and yet he perceives the world around him more accurately than any sighted person could.

I just rewatched Punisher: War Zone last night and noted a few more parallels with Batman '89.

•   The second set piece involving the hero is a shootout in an industrial environment. In B89 it's a chemical plant, while in PWZ it's a recycling facility.
•   The sequence ends with the hero knocking a mobster off a gantry and into a large receptacle containing a substance that disfigures him (chemicals/broken glass).
•   The scene with the surgeon informing the mobster the nerves in his face were severed, then removing the bandages to expose the botched reconstruction. The scene is shot from behind the mobster as he looks in a hand mirror and sees what a mess has been made of his face.
•   "Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me... Joker." "Billy is dead. From now on... you call me Jigsaw."
•   The deformed mobster holds a meeting to consolidate his power, during which he murders one of the attendees in front of the other criminals.
•   The hero is fully established as a crime fighter at the start of the film. His origin story – specifically the death of his loved ones – is only fleetingly shown in flashbacks.
•   Subplot about a character investigating the hero (Vale/Budiansky) who is partnered with another character who's been investigating the same case for a longer period of time (Knox/Soap).

Can anyone spot any more similarities?

[Azrael]

I remember I also caught some similarities. There was this topic, back from 2009. But you put it in words much better that I can.

http://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=741.0

I would add the mirror scene. One of the first scenes with Billy is when he admires himself in a (car) mirror. His girlfriend approaches him, and he's less than friendly, just like Napier is to Alicia in the B'89 mirror scene. Difference is that Napier scolds her with words ("I didn't ask"), Billy grabs her by the neck.

[Silver Nemesis]

Oh, wow. I didn't realise we already had a thread on this subject. Thanks for the link, Azrael. You covered all of this eight years ago!

I would add the mirror scene. One of the first scenes with Billy is when he admires himself in a (car) mirror. His girlfriend approaches him, and he's less than friendly, just like Napier is to Alicia in the B'89 mirror scene. Difference is that Napier scolds her with words ("I didn't ask"), Billy grabs her by the neck.

That's another great observation. The narcissistic mobster mistreating his GF while he admires himself in the mirror. These parallels are too numerous to be coincidental.

One other thing that just occurred to me – both films include a pastiche of Patton (1970) involving the main villain. In B89 it's the scene where the Joker faces down the Batwing following the parade.

In PWZ it's the scene where Jigsaw delivers his rallying speech in front of the American flag.

I've just been listening to a 2016 episode of Kevin Smith's Fat Man on Batman podcast featuring Punisher: War Zone director and former world kickboxing champion Lexi Alexander. She doesn't mention the Batman '89 influence, but she does reveal a connection between War Zone and another Batman film.

It seems Alexander was originally meant to portray one of the Golum gang members that attacks Bane in the Turkish baths in Batman & Robin (1997). Apparently she had to teach the other gang members how to wield the whip chains and worked on the scene for six weeks. The sequence was initially meant to be longer but Joel Schumacher cut it down and fired her because he wanted the gang to be all male. Doug Hutchison, who played the Golum gang leader, sent her a nice card afterwards offering his sympathies. Years later, when the opportunity came round to direct Punisher: War Zone, Alexander remembered Hutchison's kind gesture and cast him as Loony Bin Jim.

Here's the podcast in case anyone fancies listening to it: https://soundcloud.com/fatmanonbatman/fatman-131?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FatManOnBatman+%28Fat+Man+on+Batman%29&utm_content=FeedBurner

Since West's Jigsaw was clearly a cinematic descendent of Nicholson's Joker, does that mean Barnes' Jigsaw in the new series will be closer to Ledger's? It's going to be interesting contrasting the two when November comes around. In the meantime I'm awaiting the first pics of the MCU Jigsaw's face with a mixture of curiosity and nausea.

[Azrael]

The narcissistic mobster mistreating his GF while he admires himself in the mirror. These parallels are too numerous to be coincidental.

Yes. If I remember right, it's mentioned in the B'89 novelization that Napier is vain about his looks - in War Zone, Billy is seen taking a good look in a mirror, admiring himself, while talking to his boss (five minutes into the movie).

Even if the list is stripped down to the most immediately obvious (e.g. the surgery), the B'89 influence is undeniable.

It seems Alexander was originally meant to portray one of the Golum gang members that attacks Bane in the Turkish baths in Batman & Robin (1997). Apparently she had to teach the other gang members how to wield the whip chains and worked on the scene for six weeks. The sequence was initially meant to be longer but Joel Schumacher cut it down and fired her because he wanted the gang to be all male. Doug Hutchison, who played the Golum gang leader, sent her a nice card afterwards offering his sympathies. Years later, when the opportunity came round to direct Punisher: War Zone, Alexander remembered Hutchison's kind gesture and cast him as Loony Bin Jim.

This is interesting. I never knew that Loony Bin Jim was in Batman & Robin.

I always thought that the final scene outside the church has lighting a bit similar to the Schumacher Batman movies. There were a few reviews that mentioned the colours.

Since West's Jigsaw was clearly a cinematic descendent of Nicholson's Joker, does that mean Barnes' Jigsaw in the new series will be closer to Ledger's? It's going to be interesting contrasting the two when November comes around. In the meantime I'm awaiting the first pics of the MCU Jigsaw's face with a mixture of curiosity and nausea.

There already was one famous case of a Ledger-inspired villain (Bardem in Skyfall), we'll see. D'Onofrio as Kingpin was one for the best comic book villains (maybe the most memorable Marvel villain after Loki), so I also await the Netflix version of Jigsaw. He'll be gruesome, sure, but maybe not too gruesome (à la Eckhart's Two-Face). When it comes to the two seasons of DareDevil, they have an excellent track record with casting.

[Silver Nemesis]

This is interesting. I never knew that Loony Bin Jim was in Batman & Robin.

It's quite appropriate when you think about it. Loony Bin Jim was a cannibal, right? I've always primarily associated Hutchison with his early role as Eugene Victor Tooms in the first season of The X-Files. Tooms was also a cannibal. And as for the Golum gang leader:

"Hello, my pretty, pretty, pretty. You look good enough to eat."

On the subject of the Golum gang, does anyone think they're meant to be the same gang Dick fought in Batman Forever? The BF gang is usually referred to as the 'Neon Gang', but we never learned their proper name. Maybe the Golums were all that remained of the group after Batman and Robin got through with them.

There's no shortage of blacklights and fluorescent paint in Schumacher's Gotham, so they could well be two completely unrelated gangs. But it would strike a nice note of continuity if they were the same group.

I always thought that the final scene outside the church has lighting a bit similar to the Schumacher Batman movies.

I thought that too. The Flash (1990-91) makes similar use of coloured lights. Evidently a number of pre-MCU directors associated that aesthetic with the genre.

There already was one famous case of a Ledger-inspired villain (Bardem in Skyfall), we'll see. D'Onofrio as Kingpin was one for the best comic book villains (maybe the most memorable Marvel villain after Loki), so I also await the Netflix version of Jigsaw. He'll be gruesome, sure, but maybe not too gruesome (à la Eckhart's Two-Face). When it comes to the two seasons of DareDevil, they have an excellent track record with casting.

For me, Kingpin takes the top spot on the MCU villain leaderboards. Generally I think the Netflix corner of that universe has delivered far more intimidating and memorable bad guys than the theatrical side: Kingpin, Purple Man, Nobu Yoshioka, Cottonmouth, Elektra/Black Sky, etc. Of course the movies have had their share of memorable heels too: Loki, Vulture, Crossbones and the Winter Soldier being my personal favourites. But the TV shows have a better batting average in that area, so I'm glad Jigsaw is getting the R-rated Netflix treatment. I'm also looking forward to seeing who plays Deacon Frost when the inevitable Blade series gets green lit.

But the supervillain I want to see depicted in live action more than any other is, of course, that insufferable a-hole Bullseye. After him it'd be Brainiac, Doctor Doom and Darkseid. But Bullseye is the one I'm most keen to see portrayed successfully. Make it happen, Marvel.

You're right about Bardem's character in Skyfall being indebted to Ledger's Joker. I'd also cite Benedict CumberKhan (or should that be Khanberbatch?) from Star Trek Into Darkness as another villain that took his cues from The Dark Knight (he certainly didn't take them from the awesome Ricardo MontalKhan version). Did you ever play the 2010 remake of GoldenEye, Azrael? If we're talking Bond villains influenced by Ledger, just check out what 006 looked like in that game.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but that looks an awful lot like Heath Ledger to my eyes. I vaguely recollect the voice actor sounding like Heath as well.

[Azrael]

It's quite appropriate when you think about it. Loony Bin Jim was a cannibal, right? I've always primarily associated Hutchison with his early role as Eugene Victor Tooms in the first season of The X-Files. Tooms was also a cannibal. And as for the Golum gang leader:

"Hello, my pretty, pretty, pretty. You look good enough to eat."

On the subject of the Golum gang, does anyone think they're meant to be the same gang Dick fought in Batman Forever? The BF gang is usually referred to as the 'Neon Gang', but we never learned their proper name. Maybe the Golums were all that remained of the group after Batman and Robin got through with them.

There's no shortage of blacklights and fluorescent paint in Schumacher's Gotham, so they could well be two completely unrelated gangs. But it would strike a nice note of continuity if they were the same group.

Always assumed it's the same group. You fight these guys in the Batman & Robin game (which isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is).

I thought that too. The Flash (1990-91) makes similar use of coloured lights. Evidently a number of pre-MCU directors associated that aesthetic with the genre.

In hindsight, this isn't a bad thing (when not overdone). I hope more follow. In light of what Nolan has done (everything has to look mundane), a bit more colour is welcome.

For me, Kingpin takes the top spot on the MCU villain leaderboards. Generally I think the Netflix corner of that universe has delivered far more intimidating and memorable bad guys than the theatrical side: Kingpin, Purple Man, Nobu Yoshioka, Cottonmouth, Elektra/Black Sky, etc. Of course the movies have had their share of memorable heels too: Loki, Vulture, Crossbones and the Winter Soldier being my personal favourites. But the TV shows have a better batting average in that area, so I'm glad Jigsaw is getting the R-rated Netflix treatment. I'm also looking forward to seeing who plays Deacon Frost when the inevitable Blade series gets green lit.

Effective and menacing is a bit different than memorable IMO. I had to look up to remember a few of these guys! Don't get me wrong - I think they were great, but none had the charisma of Kingpin, Loki or, yes, MK's Vulture. I wouldn't count Elektra and Winter Soldier as true villains (a bit like Catwoman, an anti-hero/anti-villain thing).

I think DC overall had better luck with villains - most performances (from the 60s till now) are memorable and quotable.

But the supervillain I want to see depicted in live action more than any other is, of course, that insufferable a-hole Bullseye. After him it'd be Brainiac, Doctor Doom and Darkseid. But Bullseye is the one I'm most keen to see portrayed successfully. Make it happen, Marvel.

Agreed. Even Collin Farrel was at least entertaining in the role - I'd love to see what they would do with a proper adaptation. As for Doom, a proper screen version of Doom should have the same effect Darth Vader had to kids of the late 70s/early 80s. Never been really a fan of FF comics, but always loved Victor Von Doom.

You're right about Bardem's character in Skyfall being indebted to Ledger's Joker. I'd also cite Benedict CumberKhan (or should that be Khanberbatch?) from Star Trek Into Darkness as another villain that took his cues from The Dark Knight (he certainly didn't take them from the awesome Ricardo MontalKhan version). Did you ever play the 2010 remake of GoldenEye, Azrael? If we're talking Bond villains influenced by Ledger, just check out what 006 looked like in that game.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but that looks an awful lot like Heath Ledger to my eyes. I vaguely recollect the voice actor sounding like Heath as well.

Agreed. I'm sure there's a few more, we are not aware of them. That's the one thing I don't like about Ledger's Joker - the copycats because of the insane popularity (especially late 2000s/early 2010s). I still love his performance and think it's the single most entertaining thing in the entire Nolan trilogy (and one of the most entertaining in Batman's history), but most copies are little more than shadows. At least copies of Jack Nicholson's Joker (like Michael Ironside in Highlander II) tend to be more fun.

I never played Goldeneye 2010, unfortunately. I like Bond, but I'm not a big enough fan to play everything with the license, and I remember what put me off was that it was a modernization and not a remake of the actual GoldenEye with Brosnan and co. Yes, id made sense to replace Brosnan with the then current face of Bond (Craig), but for me GoldenEye has the face of Pierce Brosnan.

[Silver Nemesis]

I think DC overall had better luck with villains - most performances (from the 60s till now) are memorable and quotable.

True. As far as the comics go, I think Marvel might actually have a larger line-up of classic villains overall than DC. But when it comes to live action treatments, DC has done a better job of translating their classic rogues into equally memorable screen villains.

Agreed. Even Collin Farrel was at least entertaining in the role - I'd love to see what they would do with a proper adaptation. As for Doom, a proper screen version of Doom should have the same effect Darth Vader had to kids of the late 70s/early 80s. Never been really a fan of FF comics, but always loved Victor Von Doom.

I've always imagined an ideal live action incarnation of Doom to be a cross between Vader and Hans Gruber. With any luck Fox will eventually give him back to Marvel and he'll get a decent cinematic representation at last.

As for Bullseye, his fights against Daredevil in the TV show need to be the best martial arts scenes ever filmed for a superhero production. They have to push the envelope on the choreography and deliver something insanely fast and brutal as hell. Here are a couple of cool fan-made items that illustrate the level of aggression I'm looking for.

The TV show has thus far surpassed my loftiest expectations, and for the third season they're tackling what I consider to be Frank Miller's finest work as a writer (yes, even better than The Dark Knight Returns IMO). The end result has to be at least an 8.5/10. Anything less is a disservice to the source material and the previous seasons of the TV show.

Agreed. I'm sure there's a few more, we are not aware of them. That's the one thing I don't like about Ledger's Joker - the copycats because of the insane popularity (especially late 2000s/early 2010s). I still love his performance and think it's the single most entertaining thing in the entire Nolan trilogy (and one of the most entertaining in Batman's history), but most copies are little more than shadows. At least copies of Jack Nicholson's Joker (like Michael Ironside in Highlander II) tend to be more fun.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who spotted the Nicholson influence on Ironside's performance. Highlander II came out in 1991, so Batman 89 would still have been very much in vogue at the time. When Dolph Lundgren was promoting Universal Soldier (1992) he compared his character Sgt. Andrew Scott to Nicholson's Joker, so there's another movie villain that's partly descended from B89. I'm sure there are others too. We could probably have a whole thread on this subject.

I never played Goldeneye 2010, unfortunately. I like Bond, but I'm not a big enough fan to play everything with the license, and I remember what put me off was that it was a modernization and not a remake of the actual GoldenEye with Brosnan and co. Yes, id made sense to replace Brosnan with the then current face of Bond (Craig), but for me GoldenEye has the face of Pierce Brosnan.

The remake was ok. I played through it once and never bothered revisiting it. I was part of the generation reared on the N64 game, so I have a strong bias towards the original. But the remake wasn't bad for a modern shooter.

[Azrael]

As for Bullseye, his fights against Daredevil in the TV show need to be the best martial arts scenes ever filmed for a superhero production. They have to push the envelope on the choreography and deliver something insanely fast and brutal as hell. Here are a couple of cool fan-made items that illustrate the level of aggression I'm looking for.

Mugen. Always one for interesting combinations.

DD 1-2 had among the best, not to worry, it seems that great fight scenes are one of their priorities.

The TV show has thus far surpassed my loftiest expectations, and for the third season they're tackling what I consider to be Frank Miller's finest work as a writer (yes, even better than The Dark Knight Returns IMO). The end result has to be at least an 8.5/10. Anything less is a disservice to the source material and the previous seasons of the TV show.

Oh yes. I was one of those only vaguely familiar with DD comics, this series made me interested in checking them out. Easily one of my favourite live action superhero movies/series after Batman. Still haven't watched Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and the Defenders, though, but I can't wait for the Punisher and DD3 (when it eventually comes).

I'm glad I'm not the only person who spotted the Nicholson influence on Ironside's performance. Highlander II came out in 1991, so Batman 89 would still have been very much in vogue at the time. When Dolph Lundgren was promoting Universal Soldier (1992) he compared his character Sgt. Andrew Scott to Nicholson's Joker, so there's another movie villain that's partly descended from B89. I'm sure there are others too. We could probably have a whole thread on this subject.

There should be!

The remake was ok. I played through it once and never bothered revisiting it. I was part of the generation reared on the N64 game, so I have a strong bias towards the original. But the remake wasn't bad for a modern shooter.

I take it you're Nintendo.

[Silver Nemesis]

Oh yes. I was one of those only vaguely familiar with DD comics, this series made me interested in checking them out. Easily one of my favourite live action superhero movies/series after Batman. Still haven't watched Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and the Defenders, though, but I can't wait for the Punisher and DD3 (when it eventually comes).

My special area of interest is obviously DD, so the other Netflix shows don't appeal to me as much. But I've watched all of them so far and found each to be reasonably enjoyable. However none of the other shows comes close to DD in terms of quality or sheer awesomeness. You should certainly check out The Defenders though, Azrael. I don't want to give spoilers away, but it ends with Matt in a situation that will lead directly into DD season 3. It's sort of like DD season 2.5.

I take it you're Nintendo.