How fans are trying to remove Zack Snyder from the Justice League

[Dagenspear]

As someone who thought that the film is merely okay and normally not too bothered by what critics say, I do sympathise with some of the fans who are getting frustrated over the negative reaction. I think it's extremely rich for people - whether it's critics or movie goers - to complain about the tone of BvS, but then praise nihilistic crap like The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. That, and some of the negative reviews that I noticed are unnecessarily vitriolic and sensational beyond belief. I can understand if anybody thought the film felt short of the mark because they thought the plot wasn't up to scratch, the pacing was sloppy, or even if they thought characters were underused or whatever. But as I already said, there have been some bad reviews that went overboard. BvS, in my opinion, definitely could've and should've been better, but it's nowhere near this disaster that it's being made out to be.

How is TDK/TDKRises nihilistic, when the hero ends up finding and having a strong meaning in life, to the point where he fulfills the hope of his father-figure and maintaining to the end that there should be people who do the right thing? Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[johnnygobbs]

Hello Dagenspear.

I like your posts and I mostly agree with you about the Nolan films.  I thought the end of TDKR, the film in the trilogy that I think gets the most undue hate, was particularly affecting.  Perhaps the idea of Bruce quitting as Batman is understandably controversial to some, but I don't see how anyone can say his decision to have a normal life, free from the pain, bitterness and anger that clouded him for years, much to his surrogate father, Alfred's, joy is 'nihilistic'. 

Likewise, with TDK, the ferry passengers' decision to 'disappoint' the Joker, and chose to preserve their humanity by refusing to detonate the other ferry, is one of the most life-affirming moments in comic-book movies.  I figuratively cheered when the big scary-looking convict, played by Tiny Lister, threw the detonator out of the convicts' ferry.

But can I ask Dagenspear, what are your thoughts on the Burton Batman films?  Do you only like TDK trilogy?

[Dagenspear]

Hello Dagenspear.

I like your posts and I mostly agree with you about the Nolan films.  I thought the end of TDKR, the film in the trilogy that I think gets the most undue hate, was particularly affecting.  Perhaps the idea of Bruce quitting as Batman is understandably controversial to some, but I don't see how anyone can say his decision to have a normal life, free from the pain, bitterness and anger that clouded him for years, much to his surrogate father, Alfred's, joy is 'nihilistic'. 

Likewise, with TDK, the ferry passengers' decision to 'disappoint' the Joker, and chose to preserve their humanity by refusing to detonate the other ferry, is one of the most life-affirming moments in comic-book movies.  I figuratively cheered when the big scary-looking convict, played by Tiny Lister, threw the detonator out of the convicts' ferry.

But can I ask Dagenspear, what are your thoughts on the Burton Batman films?  Do you only like TDK trilogy?

Not at all. The Burton movies are some of the first Batman media I consumed. I'm even told that as a child, before I could read I could pick out the Batman 89 tape and want to watch it. I actually thank and praise God that I'm so well adjusted having watched Batman 89 and Batman Returns at such a young age, because honestly those movies can get a little freaky. That and the animated series definitely was what shaped Batman for me. TDKT just more refined Batman, specified him as an adaption for me. You'll rarely see me talk about the Burton films, because I'm usually reactive in discussion, not always, but quite a bit. It's why you see me mostly defend the Nolan films. And here, the Burton movies don't need much defending. I like the Schumacher movies and animated series too, as shocking as that may seem. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[johnnygobbs]

Not at all. The Burton movies are some of the first Batman media I consumed. I'm even told that as a child, before I could read I could pick out the Batman 89 tape and want to watch it. I actually thank and praise God that I'm so well adjusted having watched Batman 89 and Batman Returns at such a young age, because honestly those movies can get a little freaky. That and the animated series definitely was what shaped Batman for me. TDKT just more refined Batman, specified him as an adaption for me. You'll rarely see me talk about the Burton films, because I'm usually reactive in discussion, not always, but quite a bit. It's why you see me mostly defend the Nolan films. And here, the Burton movies don't need much defending. I like the Schumacher movies and animated series too, as shocking as that may seem. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Thank you for your answer.

I wasn't about to hate on you if you'd said you disliked the Burton films, although I might not want to be your friend.    But I'm still pleased you like them. 

And like you, I tend to be quite reactive, which is why on the IMDb boards I used to feel compelled to defend the Burton films all the time, and why here, I probably feel more inclined now to speak up for the Nolan films, because I know that the Burton and Schumacher films are generally well liked among the members of this site.

[The Laughing Fish]

No. To me, it's not about Batman quitting that's nihilistic. It's the fake, contradictory messages that's the problem.

It would be one thing if Nolan wanted to convey the message that people are inherently good - like Sam Raimi did in his Spider-Man movies. But don't show me moments of ugly human behavior i.e. people caving into Joker's demands by trying to kill Reese, and then expect me to believe a completely unrealistic and impossibly idealistic scenario where citizens AND convicts refuse to kill each other when their lives are in danger...AND then tell me that I should accept Batman making a decision that goes against everything he stood for.

If you ask me, I think it's quite rather rich of Batman to champion his belief in criminals doing the right thing, since he goes out of his way to fight them on a nightly basis because he knows they can't do the right thing! But having said that, I'd would've tolerated everything what was wrong about that boat scene if TDK's ending didn't have Batman framing himself for everything that Two-Face did. Him taking the blame for Two-Face not only betrays his intention to become an "incorruptible symbol" as he said in the first film, but it also undermines everything he said to the Joker about "people are ready to believe in good". If he truly believed that, he would've let the truth come out and give people the chance to prove yet again - the Joker was wrong. If that was the ending, I could've put up with the unrealistic and contradictory stuff that happened before, because Batman stayed true to what he believed in and Gotham repaid his faith one more time. THAT would've been inspirational and life-affirming. After all, if you're going to show that people - good and bad - have the strength to not kill each other as a sign of solidarity, then for God's sake, you must stay true to that message. If they can do that, then they can cope with the news that a lawyer became a murderer.

Instead, Batman and Gordon lie to everyone to protect a murderer because they were afraid that city would lose hope (despite the fact they were supposedly stronger than Joker gave them credit for at the end of that boat scene) and it enabled a legislation to give the entire town a false sense of security for eight years... which eventually backfired horribly when the truth came out, and leaves innocent people in grave danger. Not exactly very life-affirming, is it? I guess the Joker's bleak perspective about human nature was right after all?

Had Batman and Gordon told the truth, they definitely wouldn't have to carry a burden that could tear the city apart for eight years. Sure, Bane and Talia still would've taken over Gotham City, but at least Batman and Gordon wouldn't be responsible for making the situation worse. And if you argue the whole meaning of TDKR was saying that the cover-up was the wrong thing to do, then how the hell can you say TDK's ending was heroic and inspiring? To me, it was a hypocritical message that didn't ring true at all, and the director wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

Another thing, if the director wanted to convey the story that being Batman enabled Gotham City to clean itself up as a functional society, don't have John Blake or whoever take up the mantle from Bruce. Otherwise, it's like TDK's ending - you'll defeat the whole purpose. All that tells me is as long as a Batman is needed, Gotham will never be safe.

For all the things I could list down what disappointed me about BvS, the ending where ***SPOILER*** Superman sacrifices his own life to stop Doomsday is inspirational as he not only saves the planet, but he allows Batman and Wonder Woman to come out of their shell and carry on his legacy. That's far more uplifting than any Nolan ending could ever offer, to me.

Besides, in case if somebody accuses me or anybody else others of being negative or wanting to hate a movie, the same thing can be said about the accusers for not liking something either. It's not very nice, is it?

[Dagenspear]

No. To me, it's not about Batman quitting that's nihilistic. It's the fake, contradictory messages that's the problem.

It would be one thing if Nolan wanted to convey the message that people are inherently good - like Sam Raimi did in his Spider-Man movies. But don't show me moments of ugly human behavior i.e. people caving into Joker's demands by trying to kill Reese, and then expect me to believe a completely unrealistic and impossibly idealistic scenario where citizens AND convicts refuse to kill each other when their lives are in danger...AND then tell me that I should accept Batman making a decision that goes against everything he stood for.

People aren't inherently good and people aren't inherently bad. The movie provides two examples of society. That's not a contradiction. It's just a fact. Batman stood for trying to rid the city of corruption. What he does doesn't go against that. If anything, he found himself to be a corruptive force, which he says in the movie. But even if it had, that isn't nihilism.

If you ask me, I think it's quite rather rich of Batman to champion his belief in criminals doing the right thing, since he goes out of his way to fight them on a nightly basis because he knows they can't do the right thing! But having said that, I'd would've tolerated everything what was wrong about that boat scene if TDK's ending didn't have Batman framing himself for everything that Two-Face did. Him taking the blame for Two-Face not only betrays his intention to become an "incorruptible symbol" as he said in the first film, but it also undermines everything he said to the Joker about "people are ready to believe in good". If he truly believed that, he would've let the truth come out and give people the chance to prove yet again - the Joker was wrong. If that was the ending, I could've put up with the unrealistic and contradictory stuff that happened before, because Batman stayed true to what he believed in and Gotham repaid his faith one more time. THAT would've been inspirational and life-affirming. After all, if you're going to show that people - good and bad - have the strength to not kill each other as a sign of solidarity, then for God's sake, you must stay true to that message. If they can do that, then they can cope with the news that a lawyer became a murderer.

You say this every time, and I always reply with the fact that Batman says very specifically that people are ready to believe in good. Not that they are good or that they already believe in it, but that they're ready to. And Bruce saw Harvey Dent as the catalyst for that belief. He was wrong of course. But that's apart of his character arc in the movie, his belief that Batman is a negative thing.

Instead, Batman and Gordon lie to everyone to protect a murderer because they were afraid that city would lose hope (despite the fact they were supposedly stronger than Joker gave them credit for at the end of that boat scene) and it enabled a legislation to give the entire town a false sense of security for eight years... which eventually backfired horribly when the truth came out, and leaves innocent people in grave danger. Not exactly very life-affirming, is it? I guess the Joker's bleak perspective about human nature was right after all?

That's not something that could have been predicted. The Joker's bleak false outlook was never proven right. When Bane took over the city, only the criminals and already bad people did bad things. The people who weren't them hid from it and/or did their best to help.

Had Batman and Gordon told the truth, they definitely wouldn't have to carry a burden that could tear the city apart for eight years. Sure, Bane and Talia still would've taken over Gotham City, but at least Batman and Gordon wouldn't be responsible for making the situation worse. And if you argue the whole meaning of TDKR was saying that the cover-up was the wrong thing to do, then how the hell can you say TDK's ending was heroic and inspiring? To me, it was a hypocritical message that didn't ring true at all, and the director wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

It being heroic isn't taken away because it ends up being realized as something that ultimately didn't work out. That's like saying you might as well not fight crime, because crime in this human life will always exist. What's the point if there will be more to come? The action of stopping a crime is no less good just because more will come.

Another thing, if the director wanted to convey the story that being Batman enabled Gotham City to clean itself up as a functional society, don't have John Blake or whoever take up the mantle from Bruce. Otherwise, it's like TDK's ending - you'll defeat the whole purpose. All that tells me is as long as a Batman is needed, Gotham will never be safe.

No place in this human life will every be safe. People willing to help will always be needed. It would be a lie to say otherwise.

For all the things I could list down what disappointed me about BvS, the ending where ***SPOILER*** Superman sacrifices his own life to stop Doomsday is inspirational as he not only saves the planet, but he allows Batman and Wonder Woman to come out of their shell and carry on his legacy. That's far more uplifting than any Nolan ending could ever offer, to me.

Besides, in case if somebody accuses me or anybody else others of being negative or wanting to hate a movie, the same thing can be said about the accusers for not liking something either. It's not very nice, is it?

The same could be said of your reactions to things as well. That sacrifice is just as heroic as Batman taking the fall for Dent or Batman willing to potentially die to save the city. But I would say people find more nihilism in that Superman has to die to bring those characters out of their shells. But that may just be my personal opinion. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[The Laughing Fish]

Far as I've seen, it's a matter of them not having the same tastes. But there is no actual agenda getting pushed against this film, I see zero evidence of there being some conspiracy of critics trying to take a film down.

Considering these critics have increased their hypocrisy and vitriol against Snyder over time, even after he stood down from post-production from Justice League because of family issues, I'm afraid this statement hasn't aged very well at all.

[The Laughing Fish]

A lot has changed ever since this petty little petition came out. Justice League was thrown into disarray because of malicious studio politics, and yet, we saw a passionate fandom made their voices heard to ensure the true version of the movie to come out, which it finally did this year. As soon as general consensus agreed that Snyder's vision was considered to be far superior than Josstice L, we saw a record breaking 1.5M tweets for the #RestoreTheSnyderVerse hashtag a week after the cut came out - beating Avengers Endgame. Such a scenario would've been unthinkable back in 2016.

On top of that, I mentioned elsewhere that Eternals directer Chloe Zhao cited MOS as an inspiration. So naturally, the Snyder faithful reacts by trending with the tweet "Zack Snyder is the blueprint" all day.



As I said elsewhere, it's ironic that Warner Butchers are envious of the Marvel formula and still resist doing anything else with Snyder, yet we have an MCU film by his work.

[thecolorsblend]

I don't think history will recall the level of influence Snyder exerted over the MCU. Civil War was basically a preemptive response to BVS. The character dynamics of Civil War colored Cap and Iron Man's relationship for the remainder of their time in the MCU.

But it is true that when people talk about and analyze the Comic Book Era Of Cinema from 1998 to 2019, Snyder has a pretty gigantic role to play. Watchmen, the DCEU, the DCEU's influence, etc. His fingerprints are on cinema's comic book era at least as much as Bryan Singer, Sam Raimi, Chris Nolan and so forth.

[The Laughing Fish]

I don't think history will recall the level of influence Snyder exerted over the MCU. Civil War was basically a preemptive response to BVS. The character dynamics of Civil War colored Cap and Iron Man's relationship for the remainder of their time in the MCU.

If you've read all the storyboard plans for the Justice League sequels, you will notice the original story arc for the remainder of the Snyderverse was very similar to what happened in Avengers Infinity War and Endgame. Come to think of it, I remember the Avengers sequels were initially subtitled Parts One and Two, and Justice League was originally subtitled Part One.

All I can say is none of that is a coincidence. There was blatant copycatting going on here.

FWIW, I heard Snyder came up with revised plans for the sequels should he ever get the greenlight to make them. At this point, all we can do is see how the Discovery merger turns out and hope for the best. The only hope fans have is if WarnerMedia international has recognised ZSJL as a global phenomenon then people outside of the US branch are aware of the potential.