#BvS SPOILER THREAD

[thecolorsblend]

If she's playing Babs, I hope they don't go in a Killing Joke direction. I don't mind the Oracle stuff at all but TKJ is so far over the line that it puts Batman in a position where he's morally irresponsible if he doesn't kill the Joker. It's possible to go too far with these characters and Alan Moore absolutely did, even if other creators did great stuff with turning Babs into Oracle.

Hell, I'd be totally up for bypassing Barbara as Batgirl entirely and setting her up directly as Oracle. But the whole Joker/paralysis thing is just too much in my opinion.

[Catwoman]

If she's playing Babs, I hope they don't go in a Killing Joke direction. I don't mind the Oracle stuff at all but TKJ is so far over the line that it puts Batman in a position where he's morally irresponsible if he doesn't kill the Joker. It's possible to go too far with these characters and Alan Moore absolutely did, even if other creators did great stuff with turning Babs into Oracle.

Hell, I'd be totally up for bypassing Barbara as Batgirl entirely and setting her up directly as Oracle. But the whole Joker/paralysis thing is just too much in my opinion.

You're like the last person I would have expected to be concerned about going over the line lol. Not that I disagree, I mean I like TKJ (can't wait for the animated version) but it is definitely horrific especially from a woman's perspective.

[The Dark Knight]

I have to say, I'm proud to be a DC fan at the moment, even if the perception is BvS is a trainwreck. I really admire that WB have gone for a totally different tone to that of the MCU. It's undeniably darker, deals with the ramifications of actions, comments on society and leaves a lasting impact with the viewer. And, it's still steeped in the comics, and importantly, the comic book world.

[BatmAngelus]

Cause, yes. Outright, purposeful murder that is specifically shown to be happening in detail is what I'm talking about.

Look, we keep going around in circles. I say Nolan/Bale's Batman still killed, intent or not. You say he didn't technically kill 'cause he didn't have intent and Affleck showed more intent. I'm not denying that Affleck's Batman feels more brutal (he absolutely does), but I don't see Bale as innocent of wrongdoing either. We'll agree to disagree.

The news says that the bat brand is death sentence to inmates, showing that this isn't something new. It's happened before.

Yes, it had to have happened before for them to report it, but it also had to have happened recently for them to bother. If Batman had been doing this during his 20 years of crime fighting, why talk so much about it on the TV or give it a headline ("Bat Brand of Justice")? Why would Clark be so disturbed about Batman's methods now, vs. the previous 18 months that he's been a reporter? If this had been going on for a while, then Clark asking Bruce for his opinion on Batman's tactics must've come across as dated as asking, "So...what do you think of text messaging? Weird that we're typing instead of talking now, huh?"

[riddler]

I have to say, I'm proud to be a DC fan at the moment, even if the perception is BvS is a trainwreck. I really admire that WB have gone for a totally different tone to that of the MCU. It's undeniably darker, deals with the ramifications of actions, comments on society and leaves a lasting impact with the viewer. And, it's still steeped in the comics, and importantly, the comic book world.

You could honestly argue this was the first time DC/WB truly got it right since the 89 Batman film
Batman Returns; enjoyable movie but it strayed from the comics quite a bit especially with the villains
Batman Forever: They hit it right but of course the interference to make it overly 'family friendly' wrecked what could have been the most faithful batman film
Batman and Robin: well they actually did capture the era of the comics well, it was just horribly executed
The Nolan trilogy/Man of steel; good movies but completely lacking fun and departing the essence of the characters in favour of being more grounded. You get the impression they were almost ashamed to be making movies based on comic books.
Superman Returns; overall fairly faithful but not nearly as daring or action oriented as it could have been
Green Lantern; very faithful to the comics but out of focus and poorly developed.


This one truly felt like a comic book coming to life. 

[thecolorsblend]

Yes, it had to have happened before for them to report it, but it also had to have happened recently for them to bother. If Batman had been doing this during his 20 years of crime fighting, why talk so much about it on the TV or give it a headline ("Bat Brand of Justice")? Why would Clark be so disturbed about Batman's methods now, vs. the previous 18 months that he's been a reporter? If this had been going on for a while, then Clark asking Bruce for his opinion on Batman's tactics must've come across as dated as asking, "So...what do you think of text messaging? Weird that we're typing instead of talking now, huh?"

It's parallel story construction. Happens all the time. I'm not trying to dismiss your point, you understand. I'm just saying that if we get bothered about that in BvS, well, isn't it a bit convenient that Rick just happened to get the letters of transit the same night his ex-girlfriend and her husband wandered into his bar? Isn't it a bit convenient that Barzini just happened to start making his play against the Corleones right as Michael came back from the war? Isn't it convenient that Lex Luthor decided to hijack a pair of nuclear missiles right as Superman makes his public debut? Isn't it convenient that Harvey Dent was elected DA right as the Joker started his reign of terror in Gotham? So on and so forth.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Because you're not. You're obviously right. I'm just saying there is a mitigating factor going on here, that's all.

[Dagenspear]

Look, we keep going around in circles. I say Nolan/Bale's Batman still killed, intent or not. You say he didn't technically kill 'cause he didn't have intent and Affleck showed more intent. I'm not denying that Affleck's Batman feels more brutal (he absolutely does), but I don't see Bale as innocent of wrongdoing either. We'll agree to disagree.

I didn't say he didn't kill. I said that the movie never specified that he did in this instance and that the movie never tries to throw it in our faces that's he's deliberately, with malice of forethought and vicious specificity, murdering people, like with this. Intent has always been a part of the legal system of judgement. Killing with malicious intent is labeled as a worse crime and/or sin than being killed without it.

Yes, it had to have happened before for them to report it, but it also had to have happened recently for them to bother. If Batman had been doing this during his 20 years of crime fighting, why talk so much about it on the TV or give it a headline ("Bat Brand of Justice")? Why would Clark be so disturbed about Batman's methods now, vs. the previous 18 months that he's been a reporter? If this had been going on for a while, then Clark asking Bruce for his opinion on Batman's tactics must've come across as dated as asking, "So...what do you think of text messaging? Weird that we're typing instead of talking now, huh?"

The movie never gives the impression that Clark's newly disturbed by Batman's methods, just that he's disturbed. I don't get the impression that this is a new feeling for him. Even the conversation between them comes off as, "That bat vigilante that's been terrorizing Gotham all this time." He doesn't present it as a new development. I didn't say he'd been doing it for twenty years, just that it seems that the movie doesn't present it with the idea that this is a thing that's just started happening. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[The Dark Knight]

The tie-in material argues the case that Batman has only become rougher in recent times. It's entirely possible Affleck's Batman did not kill in the past, and has only recently 'lost his way' due to a high level of frustration and a sense of powerlessness. One of the tie-in comics, I believe, had a pair of goons discussing how Batman changed once Superman arrived on the scene. How he became more brutal.

I think Superman's influence on Bruce will be to bring him back from that level of darkness. To tone his methods down a tad, because he now knows 'men are still good'. Ironically, in some ways, Affleck's Batman described himself when he said 'how many good people are left, and how many stayed that way?'

I think this plays nicely, even though I don't really have an issue with Batfleck killing. It makes sense, considering a murderous Batman raises the attention of Superman tenfold. It's not the same Batman people have been used to.

[The Laughing Fish]

For the curious. Nothing major given away, but some praises and teases:

- Batman has the clearest character arc in the film.

- This Batman is heavily influenced by The Dark Knight Returns, right down to lifting imagery and dialogue from the book. He does not, however, come across as insane or reach quite the same extremes as Miller's version. Think of him as a mix of the TDKR Batman and the BTAS Batman.

- The murder of the Waynes is practically ripped from the pages of TDKR. The mustached Thomas Wayne. The Mark of Zorro. The gun caught in Martha's pearl necklace before it goes off. I'd rank it the best adaptation of the murders in terms of comic accuracy, but Burton's version still remains the most haunting to me.

- While the Nolan films gave a ton of prominence to Thomas Wayne and practically zero about Martha, this film goes in a refreshing direction and makes Martha Wayne have the more important presence, of the two parents, through the film.

- For the first time in cinematic history...we finally get to see Bruce visit his parents' resting place. More than once.

- Don't expect much explanation or backstory about the Robin suit in the cave.

- While the tie-in book says that Alfred was the Waynes' bodyguard and is currently Bruce's head of security, none of this is mentioned in the film. On the other hand, Irons's Alfred never serves Bruce food or wears a tux, so he doesn't come across as a butler either.

- Batman unquestionably performs detective work in this film.

- And here's what's going to be controversial about this Batman: he kills people. As hinted in the trailers, the Batwing/Batmobile blows up criminals. He sets out to kill Superman. Thugs die in that warehouse fight from the last trailer. Unlike Nolan's Batman, however, he does not talk about having a vow against killing, so his behavior doesn't come across as hypocritical.

Don't forget one other thing that's taken right out of the comics: Bruce referring himself as the third person when speaking to Alfred while discussing his plans to investigate LexCorp's involvement in the White Portuguese case.

[riddler]

For the curious. Nothing major given away, but some praises and teases:

- Batman has the clearest character arc in the film.

- This Batman is heavily influenced by The Dark Knight Returns, right down to lifting imagery and dialogue from the book. He does not, however, come across as insane or reach quite the same extremes as Miller's version. Think of him as a mix of the TDKR Batman and the BTAS Batman.

- The murder of the Waynes is practically ripped from the pages of TDKR. The mustached Thomas Wayne. The Mark of Zorro. The gun caught in Martha's pearl necklace before it goes off. I'd rank it the best adaptation of the murders in terms of comic accuracy, but Burton's version still remains the most haunting to me.

- While the Nolan films gave a ton of prominence to Thomas Wayne and practically zero about Martha, this film goes in a refreshing direction and makes Martha Wayne have the more important presence, of the two parents, through the film.

- For the first time in cinematic history...we finally get to see Bruce visit his parents' resting place. More than once.

- Don't expect much explanation or backstory about the Robin suit in the cave.

- While the tie-in book says that Alfred was the Waynes' bodyguard and is currently Bruce's head of security, none of this is mentioned in the film. On the other hand, Irons's Alfred never serves Bruce food or wears a tux, so he doesn't come across as a butler either.

- Batman unquestionably performs detective work in this film.

- And here's what's going to be controversial about this Batman: he kills people. As hinted in the trailers, the Batwing/Batmobile blows up criminals. He sets out to kill Superman. Thugs die in that warehouse fight from the last trailer. Unlike Nolan's Batman, however, he does not talk about having a vow against killing, so his behavior doesn't come across as hypocritical.

Don't forget one other thing that's taken right out of the comics: Bruce referring himself as the third person when speaking to Alfred while discussing his plans to investigate LexCorp's involvement in the White Portuguese case.

I didn't really take Bruce talking about himself in the 3rd person as cheeky dialogue, it was more discussing whether to go the traditional route and break in as Batman or walk in the front doors as Bruce Wayne.