Is Batman v Superman another Batman Returns?

[thecolorsblend]

There's been a spate of articles in the last 24-48 questioning the viability of BvS. Frankly the tone I've noticed lately has been a bit of a shift to, son of a son, this movie might turn out okay after all! Who can know?

All I can say for sure is Affleck looks great as Batman, I'm looking forward to more of Cavill as Superman, I've wanted a movie like this my entire life, it's finally happening and the only person I care about this movie impressing is me. I've washed my hands of butt-hurt Prima Donners who will piss and moan until they get put into nursing homes that their beloved Donnerverse is finally gone and Marvel fans pretending to be DC fans castigating everything WB does, even when it's what they once claimed to want.

They deserve nothing better from me. I don't need someone who has never picked up a Superman comic book in his life but has seen Superman- The Movie a thousand freaking times telling me what's what.

[Wayne49]

I've seen Batman & Robin many times and I enjoy it for what it is.  I'm certainly no die-hard hater of the film and I am often mystified why it tops so many 'worst film of all time' polls.

But these polls are often found on movie sites and magazines, and aren't particularly affiliated with comic-book or Batman fans, and yet, as I say, Batman & Robin is still often cited by many as among the worst films ever made (regardless of whether you and I think it actually deserves that label).

That said, I also realise that Batman Returns and Ang Lee's Hulk are not universally popular, although the former's 80% rating on Rotten Tomatoes does at least indicate that it has a big following and is far better regarded than Schumacher's follow-ups (and you certainly don't have to agree with this consensus).  But for what it's worth, I like that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are relatively personal comic-book movies that come straight from their respective creators' hearts.  If a comic-book movie isn't going to slavishly attempt to recreate the comic-books then why shouldn't they provide entirely unique and idiosyncratic takes on the characters they're adapting, and why shouldn't they offer some social and/or psychological commentary amidst all the punch-ups and carnage?  Whatever else their faults, it's not as if one can argue that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are bereft of visual spectacle in addition to the commentary (and whilst Burton may arguably fall down when it comes to action sequences, the Hulk's mid-film fight sequence where the big green one flings a tank by its gun barrel is still one of the best CBM fight scenes yet by my reckoning).  Yet the great thing about a film like Batman Returns is that it's sub-textual themes and characterisations linger in the memory far longer than the brainless action that is traditionally the stock and trade of most summer blockbusters.

And for what it's worth, even though I have many misgivings about the style and tone of Schumacher's Batman movies, I like that even Batman Forever, and to lesser extent Batman & Robin, offer some occasionally witty and insightful psychology (for all his faults, you can tell that the films' writer, Akiva Goldsman was the child of psychologists and thus had a real interest in exploring his characters' psychoses) and subtext alongside all the bad puns and dutch-angle-framed action sequences.

I hear what you're saying and I respect your opinion, but for me, "polls" are a dime a dozen. When ESPN does a poll of the greatest Superbowl QB's of all time, should we take that as the last say on the topic? Of course not. In fact, most of these specials usually include players saying the list is completely wrong. So I think in the world of superhero films, no one should let their opinions fall on a preconceived notion that a poll from any site or magazine is the official count on the matter.

I'm a big fan of figure lines where on this one forum the topic of heroes is a daily occurrence (both as merchandise and on the panel graphic art form). It's a good cross section of posters. They have people in their teens to people like me in their 50's. Recently we revisited the topic of best and worst films in this genre (all time). Many had an extensive list of both categories. Do you know how many times B&R got listed in the worst? Twice. And when it was, Batman Returns was lumped in with it. Oddly the greatest offender from the Batman world in this poll was Dark Night Rises. After that you had the usual suspects like Electra, Catwoman, even Howard the Duck.

Now does this sampling mean my perspective is somehow "right" and the purists are just holding on to old hate? Not at all. But it's one of many places where the subject is broached and B&R is no longer a staple in the category. So I think if we're going to look into the groups that are actually having the conversation today and not just  high brow, self-described "experts" whom have their own prejudices, I'm going to go more with the word on the street. Whether it aligns with my views or not is really immaterial. Quite the contrary, I'm accustom to being the lone wolf on all kinds of movies that fall into the least favorable category. I loved most Carpenter movies (produced, written, or directed) like Halloween II, Big Trouble in little China, or even the Thing loooooong before they found popularity with new generations. B&R has not done an about face in public perception quite to that level yet, but it's evolving for the better. It ceases to offend people and my kids (and grand-kids) I have raised like it. They understand what it is but embrace it for being fun. Sometimes that's enough.

So I believe what I'm ultimately trying to say about that movie is it's no longer this closet example of something no one can speak of. It's now in the conversation and attitudes are changing. Time is showing me that just like other films, this movie is no longer the scourge of the earth and people can relax and say they like it. I expect that to continue to evolve simply because expectations and attitudes continue to change with the glut of new treatments in this genre. When B&R was released, how many hero franchises were actively making movies? ONE...Batman. So the pressures and expectations were not only for Batman fans but the entire population of comic book readers. Fans were looking for validation and a movie that celebrated it's comic roots didn't exactly make a certain branch feel good about themselves, hence the almost personal hatred some exhibited. That's ancient history today.

[Dagenspear]

There's been a spate of articles in the last 24-48 questioning the viability of BvS. Frankly the tone I've noticed lately has been a bit of a shift to, son of a son, this movie might turn out okay after all! Who can know?

All I can say for sure is Affleck looks great as Batman, I'm looking forward to more of Cavill as Superman, I've wanted a movie like this my entire life, it's finally happening and the only person I care about this movie impressing is me. I've washed my hands of butt-hurt Prima Donners who will piss and moan until they get put into nursing homes that their beloved Donnerverse is finally gone and Marvel fans pretending to be DC fans castigating everything WB does, even when it's what they once claimed to want.

They deserve nothing better from me. I don't need someone who has never picked up a Superman comic book in his life but has seen Superman- The Movie a thousand freaking times telling me what's what.

MOS wasn't very well done, whether it was by comics or not. I didn't find STM to be very well done either writing wise. Personally I liked Superman Returns myself and to just leave no doubts that I'm not Singer fanboy, I really liked X-Men 1 and 2, but not DOFP, and I'm not really into the look of XMA. And let's just be clear with another thing, I liked TDKT more than MOS and everything Marvel has put out, just to let you know that I'm not a Marvel fanboy. But TWS has come close to that. I also like the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies, Batman the animated series, liked Superman the animated series fine, liked Justice League and Unlimited, The Batman, Batman Brave and the Bold. I was a fan of Smallville. I like The Flash. I liked Arrow, not so much anymore. Agents Of Shield was pretty good last season, but I think it's fallen in writing quality. And I haven't wanted a Batman vs Superman movie. I always thought that rebooting Superman on his own wasn't a very good move and that should have rebooted both Batman and Superman together in a team up movie, introduce Wonder Woman at the end and show her movie later the same summer and pull out a Justice League movie in 2015 with Darksied as the villain. I'm telling you this to let you know that it's not a black and white issue and that those who dislike MOS aren't necessarily Marvel or Donner fanboys and making assumptions on what people deserve and talking about them isn't necessary and doesn't accomplish anything. I'm very sorry if I'm being harsh. Have a very good day.

God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life! God bless everyone!

[johnnygobbs]

MOS wasn't very well done, whether it was by comics or not. I didn't find STM to be very well done either writing wise. Personally I liked Superman Returns myself and to just leave no doubts that I'm not Singer fanboy, I really liked X-Men 1 and 2, but not DOFP, and I'm not really into the look of XMA. And let's just be clear with another thing, I liked TDKT more than MOS and everything Marvel has put out, just to let you know that I'm not a Marvel fanboy. But TWS has come close to that. I also like the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies, Batman the animated series, liked Superman the animated series fine, liked Justice League and Unlimited, The Batman, Batman Brave and the Bold. I was a fan of Smallville. I like The Flash. I liked Arrow, not so much anymore. Agents Of Shield was pretty good last season, but I think it's fallen in writing quality. And I haven't wanted a Batman vs Superman movie. I always thought that rebooting Superman on his own wasn't a very good move and that should have rebooted both Batman and Superman together in a team up movie, introduce Wonder Woman at the end and show her movie later the same summer and pull out a Justice League movie in 2015 with Darksied as the villain. I'm telling you this to let you know that it's not a black and white issue and that those who dislike MOS aren't necessarily Marvel or Donner fanboys and making assumptions on what people deserve and talking about them isn't necessary and doesn't accomplish anything. I'm very sorry if I'm being harsh. Have a very good day.

God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life! God bless everyone!

That's interesting because I thought DOFP was the first time Bryan Singer made a comic-book movie I felt came close to capturing the tone and sense of character of its source material.  X-Men and X2, I found to be rather dreary affairs, at least from a visual perspective, and felt to be rather small-scale and lacking in a sense of the epic.  Plus, I didn't care for the way the series started with Wolverine, Storm and Rogue as opposed to the original School of Gifted Mutants team consisting of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Ice-Man, and the, in this case absent, Beast and Angel, and the countless number of subsequent retcons and total disregard for continuity that was arguably necessitated by the creative decisions made on the first few X-Men films.

As for Superman Returns, I felt that was, for the most part, a visual treat but that it lacked in a purpose (the film was basically a follow-up to and a remake of Superman The Movie, and basically amounted to a single question 'what if Superman had a kid?'), failed to do anything new or interesting with the characters, and worse was woefully miscast in places (Kate Bosworth was far too young and wan for Lois Lane, and Kevin Spacey should have been a slam-dunk for Lex but sadly chose to play the character as a retread of the winking comic-shyster Hackman had already given us with the Donner movies, not to mention, Brandon Routh was shackled in the main part by having to do an imitation of the peerless Christopher Reeve, rather than liberated to do something new with Superman, as Henry Cavill has thankfully been permitted).

Also, I don't understand the negativity towards Marvel, and the stigma towards so-called 'Marvel fanboys' since the MCU is finally and thankfully putting the fun and colour back into comic-book movies after a decade or so of dreary, colourless and 'gritty' CBMs no doubt attempting to escape Batman & Robin's shadow by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in getting rid of the camp and silliness, also taking away the fun and exhilaration a great comic-book movie should ideally deliver.

[Dagenspear]

That's interesting because I thought DOFP was the first time Bryan Singer made a comic-book movie I felt came close to capturing the tone and sense of character of its source material.  X-Men and X2, I found to be rather dreary affairs, at least from a visual perspective, and felt to be rather small-scale and lacking in a sense of the epic.  Plus, I didn't care for the way the series started with Wolverine, Storm and Rogue as opposed to the original School of Gifted Mutants team consisting of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Ice-Man, and the, in this case absent, Beast and Angel, and the countless number of subsequent retcons and total disregard for continuity that was arguably necessitated by the creative decisions made on the first few X-Men films.

DOFP was a rehash of the basic plot beats of X2 really. I found the whole movie kinda drab. It lacked the exposure in it's background characters that the others had. And the lack of colorful characters in general did the movie no real favors for me, beyond Quicksilver, who really is used once. It's entire plot centered around a fully childish character, the plot devices made no sense, the plot of the first half of the movie was basically recycled for the second half and it reuses Magneto as a villain again instead of giving us anything new. I was personally frustrated that Master Mold wasn't in it and instead the controllers of the sentinels were evil businessmen. And the only characters who really evolve are Charles and Raven.

As for Superman Returns, I felt that was, for the most part, a visual treat but that it lacked in a purpose (the film was basically a follow-up to and a remake of Superman The Movie, and basically amounted to a single question 'what if Superman had a kid?'), failed to do anything new or interesting with the characters, and worse was woefully miscast in places (Kate Bosworth was far too young and wan for Lois Lane, and Kevin Spacey should have been a slam-dunk for Lex but sadly chose to play the character as a retread of the winking comic-shyster Hackman had already given us with the Donner movies, not to mention, Brandon Routh was shackled in the main part by having to do an imitation of the peerless Christopher Reeve, rather than liberated to do something new with Superman, as Henry Cavill has thankfully been permitted).

I don't see that as the case really at all. Superman Returns was very much about Clark's lonliness and his inability to connect with humans, about he can live in the world, but never truly be connected to the humans. His son grants him that connection and the realization that he has in the movie that with a son, he's not alone anymore. Kate Bosworth is an actress. She may have been young, but the character wasn't. I don't see the problem. Michael Keaton wasn't really a physical dynamo and Brandon Routh, Henry Cavill and Christopher Reeve can't really fly. I highly doubt Ben Affleck is really capable of all that he's doing in the recent BvS trailer either. And Kevin Spacey's Lex was actually quite different as a character. He was much more serious, angry and jealous than Gene Hackman's Lex, who was more happy go lucky as a villain. I'm afraid no Superman will ever be able to do something new. It's all been done. At the moment I see Henry Cavill's as more like the Superman animated series. But I don't see a problem with being geeky. It's really as close as Superman having glasses being a disguise is going to get to being acceptable.

Also, I don't understand the negativity towards Marvel, and the stigma towards so-called 'Marvel fanboys' since the MCU is finally and thankfully putting the fun and colour back into comic-book movies after a decade or so of dreary, colourless and 'gritty' CBMs no doubt attempting to escape Batman & Robin's shadow by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in getting rid of the camp and silliness, also taking away the fun and exhilaration a great comic-book movie should ideally deliver.

Fun and color have been in many superhero movies between B&R the TDKT. The Raimi SM films, the FF films and the first Ghost Rider had it. DD in 2003 had fun in it, though admittedly not much color. The same with X3. You could say they made it more popular though.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Wayne49]

Interesting talk from the inside...

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/wb-rumored-be-worried-about-batman-vs-superman-justice-league-movie-universe-future

[BatmAngelus]

http://batman-news.com/2016/02/15/warner-bros-batman-superman-worried/

They're more concerned about how the audience will respond to it, and how it will perform at the box office. BOF speculates that the mainstream audience is used to the "popcorn" movies that Marvel produces, and won't respond well to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice's deep story that was written by an Oscar winner.

I understand the concerns in the first sentence. TDK Rises is pretty much regarded as being "not as good as the previous film" and Man of Steel's reception was pretty mixed. Then take in all the reactions to the casting news over time and I can see why WB might be worried about how audiences will like it.

But that speculation sounds like pretentious bullsh*t to me. I'm kinda sick of this notion that "DC makes deep films" when I haven't found a DC film to be any good in a while (though I still hope BvS is good).

The last trailer especially shows that BvS will be heavy on "popcorn" spectacle too. And let's not pretend that WB isn't trying to get to their own Justice League team up film as soon as possible and cash in on the whole shared universe concept. They're not out to make cinematic art. They're just as commercial as the other side. And there's nothing wrong with that, but BOF should stop twisting this into something that it's not.

[johnnygobbs]

Do you think BOF will turn on the new franchise, seeing that Jett treated TDK like his pet Batman film project?

[BatmAngelus]

I mean, I remember BOF posting against the idea of Batman being in the Justice League and joking about "Batman in space," so at least he'd be consistent.

Either way, I don't care. There are so many other fan-based comic book news websites now and sources for Batman news now and WB & Snyder will do what they want regardless what gets said at BOF.

[johnnygobbs]

I mean, I remember BOF posting against the idea of Batman being in the Justice League and joking about "Batman in space," so at least he'd be consistent.

Either way, I don't care. There are so many other fan-based comic book news websites now and sources for Batman news now and WB & Snyder will do what they want regardless what gets said at BOF.

I gave up on BOF for a variety reasons.  I wasn't able to access the forum.  I was fed up with the anti-Burton/Batman Returns rhetoric.  And this site fills most, if not all, of my fan needs. 

I'd be more inclined to visit BOF if I felt that Jett was a bit more objective, although I do believe he's toned down the anti-Burton/BR of late, and started giving a voice to people who don't necessarily agree with him.