Robin's portrayal in Batman & Robin

[Dagenspear]

This is one plot line that gets criminally ignored. I once had an argument with somebody about Batman's loose code in the Nolan films, and he tried to dismiss my complaints by trying to look for faults in Burton/Schumacher's films e.g. accusing Bruce as a hypocrite for trying to discourage Dick in seeking revenge over his family's murders when he killed in B89 and BR. I didn't think about it at the time because I hadn't seen BF in ages, and I actually thought this BS artist might have had a point. 

But when I watched the film again, and particularly this scene in context, I understood and appreciate that Bruce was talking about his own personal experience after he had avenged his parents. He realized that killing Joker failed to put him at peace, and he was looking to protect Dick from making that same mistake. People can complain about Bruce having sidekicks all they want. But there if they're honest, they'd acknowledge that his responsibility and influence in helping Dick here was possibly his greatest achievement.

There isn't an issue here with either the Nolan movies or the Burton movies with that. And Batman didn't kill the Joker in Batman 89.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Wayne49]

I think Robin plays well in these films because it allows Bruce to essentially look at himself at an earlier stage in his life and work on demons he was not confronting before through helping Dick. I think both BF and B&R have very positive messages in them which I believe should be the anchor to any Batman movie. In a world where there is so much darkness and misery, it's nice to pop in a movie where we can split right and wrong down the middle and find a guiding morality that says there's virtue in doing the right thing.

[riddler]

I recently watched the Batman Forever commentary and they did discuss the characters age and future plans quite a bit and I thought they did a good job. Burt ward was 21 when he first played the character in a much less violent version. Michael J. Fox and Kiefer Sutherland were considered for the character in the first film and they were 28 and 23 respectively.  Marlon Waynes would have been 20 at the time of the second film. Carol Kane indicated that Bob felt the 12 year old robin worked for the comics but would not have worked in live action, there's no way Batman would allow a child of that age to work alongside him. The parental groups complained enough about Batman Returns, imagine if the film put a 12 year old against supervillains?

They did indicate the intial plan was always to set up Nightwing . Notice the way the character evolves; at first in batman forever he wears tights similar to the early comics, then dos the Robin armoured suit. In Batman and Robin he starts with a Nighwing suit with Robin colours before changing to generic colours. I'm sure the next time we saw him he'd have become Nightwing.

I understand the criticisms of the character in batman and robin, he spends a lot of time acting like a spoiled brat about how Bruce makes the rules (Bruce is the leader and the wallet behind the team, he formed it). The scene where Batman disables the red bird was kind of annoying. I did like them coming full circle though both temporarily wanting to go off alone before realizing they need each other. It's too bad they shoehorned Batgirl into the film, it could have made for a better ending without her and she messed up that relationship between Bruce and Dick.

[The Laughing Fish]

It's too bad they shoehorned Batgirl into the film, it could have made for a better ending without her and she messed up that relationship between Bruce and Dick.

In what sense? I thought the dialogue involving her definitely could've been better, but I liked the idea that her inclusion into the team brought Bruce Wayne a sense of family, especially when Alfred was cured in the end.

[riddler]

It's too bad they shoehorned Batgirl into the film, it could have made for a better ending without her and she messed up that relationship between Bruce and Dick.

In what sense? I thought the dialogue involving her definitely could've been better, but I liked the idea that her inclusion into the team brought Bruce Wayne a sense of family, especially when Alfred was cured in the end.

It didn't exactly allow Robin to flourish and develop as a character as much as he could have. It seemed to me her only purpose was defeating Ivy but she didn't have to be beaten up, they could have done it in a manner which wasn't misogynistic. I also felt her plotline was mostly a rehash of Dick's from the previous film; believing Bruce had a secret and determined to find out what it was. I'd have preferred if they had barbara but didn't let her become batgirl yet.

[The Laughing Fish]

It didn't exactly allow Robin to flourish and develop as a character as much as he could have. It seemed to me her only purpose was defeating Ivy but she didn't have to be beaten up, they could have done it in a manner which wasn't misogynistic. I also felt her plotline was mostly a rehash of Dick's from the previous film; believing Bruce had a secret and determined to find out what it was. I'd have preferred if they had barbara but didn't let her become batgirl yet.

You are right about how they copied the same arc, more or less, for Barbara becoming Batgirl. But how come did you think her fight with Poison Ivy was misogynistic? Do you reckon it's because the scene objectifies them?

I think Robin's troubled relationship with Batman was resolved by the end. They had to put aside their petty disputes to save the day and realise they had to work together for Alfred and Gotham's sake.

[Wayne49]

It didn't exactly allow Robin to flourish and develop as a character as much as he could have. It seemed to me her only purpose was defeating Ivy but she didn't have to be beaten up, they could have done it in a manner which wasn't misogynistic. I also felt her plotline was mostly a rehash of Dick's from the previous film; believing Bruce had a secret and determined to find out what it was. I'd have preferred if they had barbara but didn't let her become batgirl yet.

You are right about how they copied the same arc, more or less, for Barbara becoming Batgirl. But how come did you think her fight with Poison Ivy was misogynistic? Do you reckon it's because the scene objectifies them?

I think Robin's troubled relationship with Batman was resolved by the end. They had to put aside their petty disputes to save the day and realise they had to work together for Alfred and Gotham's sake.

I think Schumacher was definitely going for a Batman Family quality from the comics. Batgirl's origin was entirely too lean for the kind of universe building Joel was in the midst of doing, but that formula had not yet been worked out like it is these days. I give him props for at least going out there and doing it, so she became part of the Batman film legacy, although not a very kind one at this stage.

[The Laughing Fish]

Yes that's true. Let's not forget there were complaints from fans over turning Barbara into Alfred's niece instead of Gordon's daughter. But who she was related to wouldn't have made a difference when it came to general fan reception, in my opinion.

[Wayne49]

Yes that's true. Let's not forget there were complaints from fans over turning Barbara into Alfred's niece instead of Gordon's daughter. But who she was related to wouldn't have made a difference when it came to general fan reception, in my opinion.

I agree. I think the biggest issue I had was the ten seconds of film time her cowl received before being evolved into a one piece eye mask. I heard she had gained weight for the added shots that featured her in the cowl, so it no longer fit her properly. I got to believe there was a work around. My inner child would have enjoyed her more had she stayed closer to her comic book roots in appearance.

[riddler]

It didn't exactly allow Robin to flourish and develop as a character as much as he could have. It seemed to me her only purpose was defeating Ivy but she didn't have to be beaten up, they could have done it in a manner which wasn't misogynistic. I also felt her plotline was mostly a rehash of Dick's from the previous film; believing Bruce had a secret and determined to find out what it was. I'd have preferred if they had barbara but didn't let her become batgirl yet.

You are right about how they copied the same arc, more or less, for Barbara becoming Batgirl. But how come did you think her fight with Poison Ivy was misogynistic? Do you reckon it's because the scene objectifies them?

I think Robin's troubled relationship with Batman was resolved by the end. They had to put aside their petty disputes to save the day and realise they had to work together for Alfred and Gotham's sake.

I don't think there was misogynism  what I'm saying is you run that risk whenever you have a male protagonist and female antagonist. For instance had batman or robin kicked her into a plant the way Batgirl did, there'd be complaints. Though they easily could have had batman or robin have her plants defeat her or simply arrest her. I'm not sure the truth to the rumour but I've heard the cancelled third Burton film ended with Keaton kissing Catwoman before hearing the click of handcuffs so Batman could turn her into the police, they could have easily used that idea here. 

With respect to Barbara becoming Alfred's niece instead of Gordons, I think that was done to tie her into wayne manor more as Gordon wasn't a big character in these films.
One interesting thing which kind of gets overlooked; at the end of Batman Forever, Batman saves Robin from falling to his death. In this film Robin is again falling to his death but this time saves himself which does nicely resolve the trust element of the film.