Did Batman deserve some punishment?

[The Dark Knight]

Yep. Way I see it, the police can do their thing, but Batman will continue doing his thing. He knows he's on the right side of the fence even if they don't. And I guess that satisfies him. Like it is stated in TDK Rises, Bruce doesn't share his data or equipment with the police because he doesn't trust them. Another man's tool is another man's weapon. Batman is a seperate entity who isn't dictated to by anyone else, even though he's a defender of all that is good and decent.

[Catbat]

While Batman did get seduced by Catwoman rather easily at first, don't forget that he was smart enough to upgrade his armour to make sure that he wouldn't get injured by her claws for a second time during the mistletoe scene.

Right, I agree that Batman was able to reduce the damages inflicted by Catwoman's claws during the mistletoe scene, but I believe that was mainly due to the fact that she tried to stab him directly on his chest, where the armour is thick and solid. Still, she could puncture Batman, although less severely than the previous night (immediately after the stabbing, he grimaced with pain when he extracted the claw from the batsuit).

My guess is that the rapid upgrades Batman did to the armour made it more difficult for Catwoman to find a weak spot, so she simply attacked him where she thought she could hurt him most from her position. The previous night, Catwoman had decided to seduce Batman to gain time and explore his batsuit with her clawed hand and, remarkably, she could figure out that his flank was scarcely protected by sensually massaging him. 

[Edd Grayson]

Yep. Way I see it, the police can do their thing, but Batman will continue doing his thing. He knows he's on the right side of the fence even if they don't. And I guess that satisfies him. Like it is stated in TDK Rises, Bruce doesn't share his data or equipment with the police because he doesn't trust them. Another man's tool is another man's weapon. Batman is a seperate entity who isn't dictated to by anyone else, even though he's a defender of all that is good and decent.

[thecolorsblend]

My guess is that the rapid upgrades Batman did to the armour made it more difficult for Catwoman to find a weak spot, so she simply attacked him where she thought she could hurt him most from her position. The previous night, Catwoman had decided to seduce Batman to gain time and explore his batsuit with her clawed hand and, remarkably, she could figure out that his flank was scarcely protected by sensually massaging him.

He might've upgraded the suit off-camera... or it could just be that she found a weaker spot in his armor on the first night.

[Catbat]

He might've upgraded the suit off-camera... or it could just be that she found a weaker spot in his armor on the first night.

It's possible that Batman made some minor improvements to the armor off-camera, but remember he had his second encounter with Catwoman right the following night, so he really had little time to implement and test them, taking into account that he also had to deal with the Ice Princess kidnaping in the meantime.

Catwoman's stabbing of Batman's flank was most probably a chance occurence, which nevertheless proved to be intensely painful for him. Catwoman herself seemed surprised to have found that weaker spot, although she smartly hid that behind the atmosphere of sensuous enjoyment they were having on the terrace.

[Wayne49]

I think the plot points you have detailed really go to show how flimsy the Batman concept really is if we try to apply real life applications. The very idea a vigilante can walk around in the open like this and be seen talking with an elected official is probably about as outlandish as it gets.

Can you imagine social media today if people saw a masked man tie a bomb to someone and let it detonate? Hell I just read in the news where a man who was bound and robbed at gun point will be facing charges for shooting at the robber as he drove away in HIS car (the crook ultimately died from those wounds). So it's very hard to apply a fairness meter and ground it with anything going on in this movie. Batman in no way is able to make a public distinction between what he has been accused of and what the Penguin is doing. Dubbing in something the Penguin said in private over a loud speaker is hardly what I would call a definitive moment to clear his name. And honestly that is probably the weakest plot point in the whole story.

So for me to really enjoy this film, I have to look at it from a kind of art-house perspective. The imagery in this film is fascinating to look at, but the story is at times pretty convoluted and not as cohesive as I would like it to be. Burton takes some interesting observations with each of these characters and tries to demonstrate how each one handles and reasons the twists handed to them in their lives. But ultimately the time needed to delve sufficiently into each of these personalities is not sufficient to really have all of them in one movie. I think this film could have been infinitely better  had they stayed with just one villain.

[Catbat]

I think the plot points you have detailed really go to show how flimsy the Batman concept really is if we try to apply real life applications. The very idea a vigilante can walk around in the open like this and be seen talking with an elected official is probably about as outlandish as it gets.

I can't agree more on this: the relaxed rules of Burton's universe certainly entail relevant detours from plausibility when it comes to Batman's relationship with both Gotham PD and citizens. I personally feel a major effort to make these exceptions work in real life was made by Nolan: with all due limitations, he tried at least to avoid the most apparent problems with his vigilantism.

Can you imagine social media today if people saw a masked man tie a bomb to someone and let it detonate? Hell I just read in the news where a man who was bound and robbed at gun point will be facing charges for shooting at the robber as he drove away in HIS car (the crook ultimately died from those wounds). So it's very hard to apply a fairness meter and ground it with anything going on in this movie. Batman in no way is able to make a public distinction between what he has been accused of and what the Penguin is doing. Dubbing in something the Penguin said in private over a loud speaker is hardly what I would call a definitive moment to clear his name. And honestly that is probably the weakest plot point in the whole story.

Yes. Even though Batman used the Penguin's rant against Gotham to smear his public image, in no way that could have cleared his reputation. Hundreds of gothamites saw him "throw" the Ice Princess from the ledge, the Police saw him on the scene of the crime and even more people withnessed the batmobile destroy cars and public properties. He basically had to flee the city, even though with the proof that ultimately foiled the Penguin's plan.

So for me to really enjoy this film, I have to look at it from a kind of art-house perspective. The imagery in this film is fascinating to look at, but the story is at times pretty convoluted and not as cohesive as I would like it to be. Burton takes some interesting observations with each of these characters and tries to demonstrate how each one handles and reasons the twists handed to them in their lives. But ultimately the time needed to delve sufficiently into each of these personalities is not sufficient to really have all of them in one movie. I think this film could have been infinitely better  had they stayed with just one villain.

In my opinion, the relationship between Batman and Catwoman was developed fairly well, especially her attempt to challenge him not only on a physical, but also on a sexual level. During their confrontations, Batman apperas as physically flawed and sexually confused by her approach to vigilantism, to the point she even suggested him an early retirement.
The conflict with the Penguin is somehow less deep: it's strongly suggested that they have issues with their respective parents, but, unlike Batman, the Penguin ultimately looked for public recognition and acceptance.

[Wayne49]

In my opinion, the relationship between Batman and Catwoman was developed fairly well, especially her attempt to challenge him not only on a physical, but also on a sexual level. During their confrontations, Batman apperas as physically flawed and sexually confused by her approach to vigilantism, to the point she even suggested him an early retirement.
The conflict with the Penguin is somehow less deep: it's strongly suggested that they have issues with their respective parents, but, unlike Batman, the Penguin ultimately looked for public recognition and acceptance.

Catwoman was an interesting take and I give Burton credit for broaching the topic of social stereotypes, but I think what hurts it here is he never really flushes out where he wants to go with it. He paints Selina Kyle as this very insecure young lady who has a number of codependency issues that makes her cater to demeaning behavior as an issue she has to answer to rather than fight against. I give Burton five stars for flushing out and bringing awareness to the smug attitudes that were still quite prevalent in the corporate world at that time. It was a good statement to make. But because he nestled so much of the movie in this dark and depressing environment, cluttered with other equally interesting social themes, he leaves himself no time to really offer a resolution for any of them. All the characters either die or limp away with the scars of the events that transpired leaving the audience with one small reflection from Bruce Wayne saying, "Peace on earth. Good will to men... and women."

Yes, it's nice to suggest we as a society should be all inclusive in how we observe the populace at large, but for all the plot points about betrayal, discrimination, and abandonment, Burton needed to offer a more thoughtful rebuttal for what he wanted to do with these ideas once they were examined to suggest or offer hope as a underlying silver lining for all of these tragic characters. He never did that. And because he didn't, the movie really leaves me in a melancholy mood, because it really only shows the underbelly of society without much suggestion there is a way to better those issues. I think Burton would have been better served to have counter balanced this marathon of bleak moments with a more resolute and defined conclusion that offered an alternative to this kind of existence. Instead it kind of reads as one big rant about the moral decay of society as it applied at that time. Relevant, yes. But more than a little too top heavy for a Batman movie (in my opinion).

[Catbat]

Catwoman was an interesting take and I give Burton credit for broaching the topic of social stereotypes, but I think what hurts it here is he never really flushes out where he wants to go with it. He paints Selina Kyle as this very insecure young lady who has a number of codependency issues that makes her cater to demeaning behavior as an issue she has to answer to rather than fight against. I give Burton five stars for flushing out and bringing awareness to the smug attitudes that were still quite prevalent in the corporate world at that time. It was a good statement to make. But because he nestled so much of the movie in this dark and depressing environment, cluttered with other equally interesting social themes, he leaves himself no time to really offer a resolution for any of them. All the characters either die or limp away with the scars of the events that transpired leaving the audience with one small reflection from Bruce Wayne saying, "Peace on earth. Good will to men... and women."

Your's a fine and spot-on analysis of the main undercurrent themes of the movie. Probably Tim Burton didn't conceive Batman Returns as a social commentary, but rather as a psychological study on three outcasts in the framework of some broader social themes. My feeling is that the depressing mood is mainly conveyed by the inability of each character to get free from the burden of the crimes that created them - actually, they all end up replicating the same injustices. Batman witnessed the murder of his parents and now remorselessly kills (sometimes he even enjoys the act itself, like when he set the bomb on the big clown). In addition, when he tries to protect Gotham with his vigilantism, the results are dubious to say the least, especially when the two main opponents begin to cooperate against him. The Penguin is obsessed with having been rejected and abandoned by his parents and seeks recognition and acceptance by the community via criminal ways - when his plan fails, he devises a plan to kill the firstborns of Gotham to make the whole city experience the same suffering. Selina endured gender degradation in the workplace and was killed when she discovered something evil her boss had planned. Her alter ego Catwoman then proceeded to break havoc in the city and to play a crucial role in the death of the Ice Princess, who not by chance died from falling from a building just like Selina. Even more, Catwoman unleashed her rage mainly on Batman (as a symbol of patriarchal authority) by punishing him physically during their fights and frustrating him sexually at the end of each encounter (her attempts to seduce Batman were highly erotic in tone but ultimately aimed at inflicting him pain). 

[Wayne49]

That was an excellent analysis of character motivation Catbat. Always enjoy reading your posts! Very insightful.