Did Batman deserve some punishment?

[Catbat]

I know the question sounds provoking to most supporters of the Dark Knight, but I got this idea after probably the 10th time I watched Batman Returns. The thought is just based on what I believe are some (probably avoidable)  bad decisions he made that had painful consequences for him: a brief summary for you to question!

1)   Non-existent cooperation with Gotham Police.
Batman singlehandedly defeats the Circus Gang during their first assault in Gotham Plaza, which is great. However, he doesn't even attempt to cooperate with the Police to prevent further attacks, he doesn't share information, nor he tries to help them with the investigations. As a result, policemen don't really trust him and are ready to shoot him on sight when there's a slight possibility that he had actually pushed the Ice Princess off the ledge. He might have been framed by the Penguin and Catwoman for that murder, but he first put himself in a very ambiguous position by refusing every contact with law enforcement authorities.

2)   Poor investigation on the relationship between Max Shreck  and the Penguin.
A little more detective work could have given evidence that they were conspiring against the city. Bruce knew that Max's plan for the "power plant" was at least very suspicious, so when he publicly endorsed Oswald's run for major, it should have been obvious that, in order to stop them, he just needed to expose their connections. It should be noted that Selina, who apparently had no technical background on that field, was able to understand the inherent dangers of the power plant (Bruce also had access to the plans and blueprints). Similarly, Batman should have noted the strange "coincidence" of the Penguin's saving of the major's son.
 
3)   The batrang.
This is possibly Batman's worst mistake. Since he couldn't stop the Poodle Lady from stealing his   batrang, he could have at least told Commissioner Gordon (again point number one) that one of his devices had been stolen by a criminal gang and that it could potentially be used against civilians. Thanks to this advantage, the Penguin was able to frame him and turn the entire Police against him.

4)   Catwoman.
Batman gives Catwoman a dangerous upper hand because he doesn't deal with her properly, with extremely painful consequences. First, he fell for the "How could you? I'm a woman!" trick just when he had finally managed to stop her. Second, by allowing her to explore his rubber suit with her clawed hand, he helped her find the weak spot of the armor she then punctured. I can understand he was confused by her seduction (which at one point bordered on fetishistic sex), but she had already proven to be a very deceitful foe and he should have neutralized her "weapons" first (i.e. when she caressed his face, she came very close to scratch him!). Finally, Batman hesitated too much during the "kiss under the mistletoe", especially when Catwoman began to openly ridicule him – instead, he clumsily tried to apologize and gave her one more opportunity to stab him.

5)   The Ice Princess
I concede that rescuing her was very difficult, but he should have acted faster when he saw her tied up on the ledge.

Enjoy!   

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

Batman should never be a team player with the police. Small occasions yes, very very very small. As far as I am concerned he's, well, Batman. He should not need backup from regular guys in SWAT vans on any circumstance even one against him. At least not in my day of the glorious Michael Keaton era. I'm not sure if your a recent fan Catbat or have been there with Keaton from the get go but I got the impression you may have been too exposed to the Nolan inspired Michael Mann cop dynamics of recent Bat films (in which it is part of the story Batman is almost a cop himself, especially when gathering evidence in The Dark Knight). It is precisely my main problem among a sea of similar problems with the Nolan film's. It is of course totally fine in the innocent days of the 1960's when Adam West and Neil Hamilton worked together constantly. Almost a "family dynamic" to the show more than police co-operation logic in my view however.

The Dark Knight Rises descended into it so much it felt like I was watching a friggin cop film. Kevin Smith seemed impressed, I wasn't. Not...one...bit. I'm reminded of a review of a later Star Wars picture where a commentator stated that light-saber fights and X-Wings battles have been replaced by Senate hearings and the like. Well this is similar to what has befallen Batman and I weep for younger fans who are starved of the excitement of the imagination I was thankfully given at their age. So instead of having Batmobiles turning into Batmissiles we instead have "likeable" John Blake suiting up in kevlar and running amok with shotgun bursts. Batman Returns avoiding police matters entirely may have some problems as you state quite rightly but in much larger areas of importance it is certainly more a blessing now than I ever realized at the time.

Frank Miller took issues with the TV show on many levels. He's wrong in my view to do so, the TV show is pure magic he cannot see. But one of those issues, which he viewed as the greatest mistake, was Batman having a badge: "You don't deputize Batman!". Christian Bale isn't deputized per se, but he might as well be.

[Edd Grayson]

Let's see what an early Waters script had to say about this:

EXT. CITY HALL--NIGHT

     The Rolls rumbles past the steps of City Hall where The
     Mayor, his staff, and Commissioner Gordon, out of their
     costumes, come out to reflect up to the flashing bat
     signal.

                             GORDON
               Think he'll ever forgive us?

                             MAYOR
                      (matured)
               Probably not.  But he'll always
               help us.

     EXT./INT. THE WAYNE ROLLS-ROYCE--NIGHT

     putters by the line of beaming citizens.  Batman gives
     off a snort and cynical smile to the rejoicing minions.

                             BATMAN
               I guess this means we won.

     Alfred slams on the brakes.  The car lurches to a halt
     just avoiding hitting Selina's cat, smugly sauntering
     across the road.

     EXT. THE ELEGANT PLAZA CLOCK--NIGHT

     starts tolling the chimes of midnight.

     EXT./INT. THE ROLLS--NIGHT

     starts up again.  Batman makes eye contact with Selina's
     cat.

                             ALFRED
               Sorry, sir and....Merry Christmas.

     Batman pulls off his mask, becoming a moving mixture of
     Man and Superman.  He looks up to the flashing on and off
     Bat signal.

                             BRUCE WAYNE
               Sure.

     EXT. THE BAT BEACON--NIGHT

     flashes slower and slower as the viewer's viewpoint of
     it moves closer and closer.  It suddenly stops flashing,
     leaving only the darkness of the night.

                                                FADE OUT.

[johnnygobbs]

This thread raises an interesting but very upsetting point.

If Batman's negligence caused the Ice Princess to be kidnapped and killed he should NEVER have been allowed to continue crime-fighting ever again.    And he should have been sued by the Princess's family for his actions, especially since he is a vigilante operating outside any legal jurisdiction.

I like to think the reason why we never saw Michael Keaton's Batman again is because that was it for him and that following the events of Batman Returns he went into hiding, retired or better yet, was finally apprehended by the criminal justice system and made to account for his failings.

I also like to think that the Bat-signal shining at the end of the film was Gordon's attempt to get in contact with Batman and question and possibly apprehend him for his grievous errors.  Why else would the signal be on after Batman finally defeated all the Red Triangle Circus Gang, not to mention The Penguin and Max Shreck? 

Just one correction however, the Ice Princess was not tied up on the ledge.  Her feet/legs were free and she could easily have hopped off if she was so inclined:



That doesn't however excuse Batman telling her to not to move.    He should have encouraged her to move forward so that he was ready to catch her, regardless of how scared she may have been.

[Edd Grayson]

I stand by Dan Waters' early script, even if I don't like all that Batman did in this film.

[johnnygobbs]

GORDON
Think he'll ever forgive us?

MAYOR
(matured)
Probably not.  But he'll always
help us.

This disgusts me.    Batman screwed-up.  Why should they forgive him?

[Edd Grayson]

Because he did not kill the Princess. It was Penguin's scheme. 

[johnnygobbs]

Because he did not kill the Princess. It was Penguin's scheme. 

Firstly, how do they know?

Secondly, as Catbat says he shouldn't have lost the Batarang, and as soon as he did he should have informed the police.  If the police knew that the Batarang had been stolen it would have thrown a spanner in the Penguin's plans to frame Batman and he might have had to give up on the plan, thus sparing the lovely Ice Princess from her doom. 

[Edd Grayson]

They were both incompetent. A lot more than Batman was. In the Burton films, specifically in Returns, there's no one who is "ready to believe in good" or much "law and order" or "saving both". Batman in Batman Returns failed to save Selina from herself, and Penguin and Schreck, and of course the Princess, were dead.

[johnnygobbs]

They were both incompetent. A lot more than Batman was. In the Burton films, specifically in Returns, there's no one who is "ready to believe in good" or much "law and order" or "saving both". Batman in Batman Returns failed to save Selina from herself, and Penguin and Schreck, and of course the Princess, were dead.

But Batman was acting ultra vires (i.e. outside any power granted to him) and was thus unaccountable to the electorate.  He should only have taken the law into his own hands if he could guarantee that he would do a better job than the elected officials.

But by taking on the Red Triangle Gang and Catwoman because of the property damage they'd caused ( ) he provoked their wrath and their decision to kidnap and kill the Ice Princess.    This plan was of course facilitated thanks to Batman's incompetency in losing the Batarang. 

I know a lot of posters here will hate me for saying all this, but it's how I feel and I don't see how I'm wrong.